Why Hell?

[apothanein kerdos]

Sunshine:

If I know someone has a drinking problem and I leave a bottle of whiskey in their house where they can see it, am I to blame if they drink it all and make themselves sick? True, it was their choice to drink, but when it comes to decisions regarding achohol, they have a weakness that is a kind of disease. Some might be strong enough to resist, but some others don't. But if, knowing this, I leave the bottle there and they succumb to a weakness I know they had, then I'm helping to make them sick by putting temptation in their path.

Carry this analogy on to what you've just said about God. He loves us and trusts us enough to leave us with the whiskey, but if we then chose it, and he knew we were weak, why put the bottle there at all? We chose, true, but not necessarily while we were in posession of all our faculties and were corrupted by an illness beyond our control. Giving us the whiskey is a test of the strength of our character, but some things - like this achoholism - interefere with our abilities to make choices. The man in the hypothetical might have had strength enough to go without a drop and not to buy it from the shops, to avoid parties where it was being served- but a whole bottle, left just for him in his house, with nobody looking?

The point I'm making is this: if you're wanting to argue that God is right to leave temptation in our paths knowing our individual weaknesses for it, then it is not %100 our fault if we make the wrong choice, and we are neither %100 deserving of hell as our reward nor were we %100 responsible for our fall.

This is an improper analogy. If we were to base the analogy off the Biblical concept of God's nature concerning man and temptation, then it would be more apt to say that the Devil placed the whiskey in the room and God is at the door holding it open saying, "C'mon mate, we need to get out of here." The choice is then left up to the person: do I follow God or do I follow my desire? This is the freedom of choice that God allows.

[ayin jade]

Christians sin. We succumb to that temptation of the bottle you describe Eve. But we look past that and love the Lord. We desire Him. We are given forgiveness for our sins because of our faith in Him. Our sins condemn us but if you desired the Lord, you would be saved. You may try and blame Him because you are weak and succumb to sin, but you neglect an important part of it: your lack of response to Him regardless. Are you the alcoholic who repents and turns to the Lord? Or are you the alcoholic who relishes his or her alcoholism and doesnt care about God?

[secondeve]

Ayin:

I didn't address the issue of repentence. I was saying that if God knows we are flawed and exactly how we are weak, but allows us to be tempted - or tempts us himself - then even though we have the ability to make our own choices, if we fail precicely because of that weakness, then isn't he helping us fail?

[ted]

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Secondeve, the answer to your question lies within these verses.

Do you understand what is being said here?

Your bottle analogy is Biblically flawed based on the preceding verses. In your analogy, you are assuming that God places the bottle in front of us to tempt us- at least that's what I understand your position to be based on this:

The point I'm making is this: if you're wanting to argue that God is right to leave temptation in our paths knowing our individual weaknesses for it, then it is not %100 our fault if we make the wrong choice, and we are neither %100 deserving of hell as our reward nor were we %100 responsible for our fall.

So, based on the verses in James which I pasted, your theory contradicts what the Bible says about temptation. Which should we believe?

Obviously, the temptation lies within someone other than God, and is placed there by something other than God. God is offering the way to get past the temptations we face in life and not placing them there, as you would have us to believe, and therein lies my point.

May you come to a greater understanding in Christ's Name.

t.

[ayin jade]

Ayin:

I didn't address the issue of repentence. I was saying that if God knows we are flawed and exactly how we are weak, but allows us to be tempted - or tempts us himself - then even though we have the ability to make our own choices, if we fail precicely because of that weakness, then isn't he helping us fail?

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has taken you but what is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but with the temptation also will make a way to escape, so that you may be able to bear it .

Do you know what that way is? The way of escape?

You read our words often enough to know.

Jesus is that way of escape.

Following the Lord will enable you to avoid the testing, the temptations.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Amen Jade and Ted.

Secondeve,

If God locked you up in a gilded cage would you resent him for it? Would you come to hate your keeper?

Peace,

Dave

[redeemed098]

Hell is not an Old Testament doctrine. Why do you suppose God would not inform his chosen people about this place of eternal punishment? Cain wasn't warned of it. Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't threatened with it. Moses doesn't mention it in his Covenant that consisted of over 600 laws & ordinances. And none of the prophets foretell of it. I guess God chose to give the revelation of hell to the pagan nations that surrounded Israel, and let them educate his people on it.

Wow....!! Have you not read luke Chapter 16:19-31 It seems that you and Jesus are not in agreement.....What did Jesus say to the RicH man "who died and was buried and found himself in Hades..?" I know Hades is not Hell because after all in the final judgement 'Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire."

Hades is simply the Holding Cell. If you KNOW the Lord you will be carried away by the angels to Gods presence whether you are Buried or NOT...Lazarus was NOT buried..(The beggar lazarus).

Jesus was quite plain in his instruction when the Rich man requested that someone go to warn his five brothers so that THEY "Might not come to this place of torment." Jesus said.....??????? "Let them listen to Moses and the prophets, for if they do not listen to these then they will not believe even if someone comes back from the dead to tell them." You see the prophets and Moses give many indications in scripture of hell....Job, Isaiah, Moses, nearly ALL the prophets speak of Hell and so too does Jesus....It is the most talked about subject in all the scriptures....

Regards,

Ben.

Edited May 31, 2006 by redeemed098

[nebula]

Likewise, if I decide to turn my back on God, why should I blame Him for not intervening in my life?

[redeemed098]

IMO Nobody chooses to be burned alive forever and ever; the very idea is absurd. If choosing the "right" religion (and there are so many past and present to choose from) is the only choice one can make to avoid such a fate then that would be a decision made under duress and fear - not a decision made out of love.

I love my children but if they disappointed me I certainly wouldn't dowse them with gasoline, light a match to em and tell them as they writhe in agony that I'm only doing it because it's what they wanted and because I love them so much. So why would an all merciful, loving God (who supposedly loves us with a love so great we can't even comprehend it) do that to us? And why should we believe that He would just because we read it in a very old book compiled by unknown authors?

[note to mods; I really think this needs to be posted. Surely I'm not the only person who has had these thoughts meander thru their mind.]

I understand how you feel; you are not alone in your thoughts. As I posted in this thread earlier, this is something I struggle with. I will continue to seek answers, and I hope you will do the same. What I know for sure is that God is full of love for humanity, and when it comes down to it, He just wants us to love Him back.

I think you are right; but I'm at the point where I just don't believe the Bible is the word of God anymore. I do believe there is a God; I just don't think the Bible portrays him. IF the God of the Bible is really "the one" then we are just totally screwed, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Yes, I know that won't get posted but I just had to say it.....whew!

Charlie........

And if someone took your child and dowsed him with gasoline and set him alight.......? What would you like to see happen to THAT person.....?

God is Holy and perfectly Just.......

You DO want the world to be rid of murderers and paedophiles and serial killers and the like don't you........?

Well so does God.....Only his Holiness extends toward what HE decides is sin.......NOT YOU. It's HIS standard and not OURS that we will be judged against.

It is absolutely neccessary that a Holy God DOES punish sin.....Sin is an abomination to HIM..He cannot deny Himself.......No one can blame God for doing exactly what he has said he will DO.......Evil is the consequence of mans disobedience toward God......

Its Gods Will that none shall perish, but he's not going to FORCE heaven on you......Sure he's going to punish satan and his rebellious angels...Thats why he created hell in the first place.....Think about it......If theres no Hell, then evil will triumph.....as the days are clearly becoming more and more evil......

You better hope there is a hell.......See Gods standard of Holiness deals with even the liar and the blasphemer...The thief and the adulterer....The Idolater and the one who covets.......ONE sin makes a sinner......God WILL seperate ALL sin from Himself......Its only the devil who wants you to be convinced that youre good enough withOUT God....That is because if you remain in your sin, you will follow the devil right on into hell.......Where there will be all the UNrepentant murderers, all the UNrepentant serial killers, all the DEMONIC forces of torture and torment for ALL eternity in Flames so intense that you will desire to die but will not be able to.....Oh....and no police, no courtrooms for justice, no magistrates and NO MERCY.....You HAD your opportunity for mercy while you were ALIVE....Think about that.....Flames but no water, Everlasting darkness because God is not there there is NO light...But the worst thing of ALL......No HOPE....No Hope of ever escaping......This is not Gods plan for YOU....It is Gods plan for the devil and his angels.....Gods plan for YOU is Jesus.....

Dont waste another second thinking that there is no Hell.....

There IS....

Regards,

Ben.

[red77]

Hell is not an Old Testament doctrine. Why do you suppose God would not inform his chosen people about this place of eternal punishment? Cain wasn't warned of it. Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't threatened with it. Moses doesn't mention it in his Covenant that consisted of over 600 laws & ordinances. And none of the prophets foretell of it. I guess God chose to give the revelation of hell to the pagan nations that surrounded Israel, and let them educate his people on it.

Wow....!! Have you not read luke Chapter 16:19-31 It seems that you and Jesus are not in agreement.....What did Jesus say to the RicH man "who died and was buried and found himself in Hades..?" I know Hades is not Hell because after all in the final judgement 'Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire."

Hades is simply the Holding Cell. If you KNOW the Lord you will be carried away by the angels to Gods presence whether you are Buried or NOT...Lazarus was NOT buried..(The beggar lazarus).

Jesus was quite plain in his instruction when the Rich man requested that someone go to warn his five brothers so that THEY "Might not come to this place of torment." Jesus said.....??????? "Let them listen to Moses and the prophets, for if they do not listen to these then they will not believe even if someone comes back from the dead to tell them." You see the prophets and Moses give many indications in scripture of hell....Job, Isaiah, Moses, nearly ALL the prophets speak of Hell and so too does Jesus....It is the most talked about subject in all the scriptures....

Regards,

Ben.

the rich man and lazarus is a story...........I've pointed this out several times to those who read it literally......if the rich man was literally being tormented with flames then how would he be able to speak......?! And if he could would he ask for a drop of water to cool his toungue....?! He wouldnt be screaming out for a waterfall to put the whole fire out....?! Look at the message in the story........thats whats important isnt it? The rich man had great wealth and could have shown generosity to lazarus who had nothing but chose not to, he was guilty of being selfish and unloving and when we act like that as people we aso pay the price........metaphor........