Different peoples, Different covenants, Different deaths, will NEVER fit into an 'either/or' explanation

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

It is true that God will bring those that died in Christ with Christ when he returns (descends) and it can't be denied and it is first in order at His return.

Paul is speaking to the perspective of the alive and remaining and the first thing is they will hear the trump and be caught up to meet those that God brought with Christ. Paul is not listing a chronolgical order of things, His main point is that they sorrow not because Christ will bring their lost loved ones with Him.

Sad to think that God will send those that died in Christ to Hades.

When was Jesus Glorified?

No. 1st Thessalonians was written because Paul had only spent 3 weeks there before fleeing (Act.17). He had taught the rapture and had not time enough to teach all details. Since the rapture is for the LIVING, the Church at Thessaloniki became sorrowful when some of the saints died. They thought that the dead saints would now miss the rapture. Paul corrects this and show that the living  will NOT PREVENT (or "precede" - YLT) the dead (v.15).

Paul shows how the dead, waiting in Hades for the resurrection, shall rise first, then meet the LIVING on the surface of the earth and TOGETHER be "caught away" to meet the Lord in the clouds. With THESE words the Church was to be comforted.

Don't be sad about going to Hades. For the Christian there is a section called Paradise. God not only sent the thief on the cross next to Jesus to Hades, but Jesus Himself went there for three days (see Acts 2:28-34, Matthew 12:40, Ephesians 4:8-10). You will see that David is still there, and you and I will meet there if our Lord does not come back in our lifetime. The name "Hades" means "hidden". A dead man is both naked and unclean. He cannot appear in heaven in this condition. But for His disciples, God had created a Paradise to comfort them in the unnatural state of death.

Our Lord Jesus was glorified a number of times. The meaning of the Greek word we render as "glory" means "made apparent". In many things was our Lord "made apparent" Who He was. But I think you are asking about John 7:39. In this case He was glorified by resurrection. It was made apparent that all sin and sins were dealt with by His Sacrifice, and the disciples could receive the Holy Spirit (Jn.20:22). If one sin remained, Jesus could not have been resurrected as "the wages of sin is death". 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I am having a little difficulty following this post. I have to admit my time is limited as well. Could you please summarize or condense the main question or statement? 

I just tried to put into categories the different souls from different Covenant times,  basically the 'who, when where why's and how of life, death, and resurrection in the simplest terms possible.  Didn't succeed obviously,  so let's see if this will help. 

But believing that God uses putrefying/rotting/decaying/sinful flesh for the 'Eternal spiritual glorified body' (OMG but THAT just doesn't sit right on any level to me, it even hurts to write it, so I PRAY TO GOD that it is YOU who is really really confused and it's not me) I don't think you are going to agree with much of it. And if on top of that you are a  pre trib rapper,  I don't think ANY of this will fit in with those doctrines.  Just so you know...

As MY FAITH GOES, in part as, 'The body sown is NOT the body that will be, but just a bare grain, to which God gives a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body, 'never die' means ETERNAL life begins when those who come to faith are born again, when the incorruptible, new creatures' eternal life begins, and if Christ don't rise then Christ isn't risen (WAIT, got that wrong)  IF THE DEAD don't rise then Christ isn't risen, and 'the mystery' only applies to those alive and remaining at the 2nd Advent and  it isn't written to be applied retroactive to the entire chapter)


I have found 8, make that 9 now,  different 'types' as to times, covenants, peoples and resurrections.

Types being the saved, unsaved, or not made a choice under the Old or New Covenant 


1st resurrection is receiving IMMORTALITY along with the spiritual body when being raised or resurrected or transformed/changed because received the gift of SALVATION. 

2nd resurrection is for those who are raised in a spiritual body but STILL REMAIN MORTAL.  These are THE DEAD of the resurrection of  the just and the unjust who are raised for the Millennium and will have no chance to become 'immortal' till the end of the 1000 years UNTIL they STAND in Judgment to see whether their names will be found in the book of life or if they will go into the lake of fire.  These are 'THE DEAD'  who rise when Christ returns, ALL THOSE OF all THE NATIONS,  UNSAVED WHEN THEY DIED,  who have been in Hades (from the time Christ rose till His return at the 2nd Advent) 'the spiritually DEAD' the SAINTS will be ruling and reigning over.  WE KNOW they are in 'spiritual bodies' because 

(and hopefully to head off an argument)

1.   1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2.  Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me,  See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book:

worship God.

3.  Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mark 12:27 He is NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


And they are:

1. Israel 'under law' who came to faith, WALKED IN FAITH while on the earth, went to be with God when earth life ended.  1st death, 1st resurrection, immortality

2.  Israel 'under law' who died in sin and went to Hades, THEN went to be with God when Christ rose and the graves were opened. 1st death, and 1st or 2nd resurrection (don't know cause they were in Hades, BUT upon hearing the good news choose wisely aka life)

3.  Gentiles who died and went to Hades THEN went to be with God when Christ rose and the graves opened, having heard the good news.   1st death and 1st or 2nd resurrection

4.  Gentiles who choose the ways of the world, died and went to Hades, and remain there until 'the sea and death and hell give up the dead. 1st and 2nd death when raise at the very end

5.  Jews? and Gentiles, who don't hear the good news, die and go to Hades and having NEVER MADE A CHOICE,  are resurrected when Christ returns when the DEAD rise in the resurrection of the just and the unjust.  1st death and EITHER 2nd resurrection or second death  (THERE ARE THE NATIONS THAT WILL BE RULED AND REIGNED OVER FOR THE LORDS DAY.  Not sure so put the 'blinded Jews' here but they may raise up and not go to Hades, IDK).

6. House of Israel scattered sheep/Gentiles aka  CHRISTIANS  - BORN AGAIN of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED,  who's flesh die but their spiritual body/spirit and soul don't go to Hades, but go to heaven, while their carcass/flesh goes back to the dust of the earth

7.  Gentiles who hear the good news and reject it choose the ways of the world, go to Hades and rise when the sea and death and hell give up the dead at end of Millennium. 

8.  Those who don't EVER experience the 'death of the flesh' but are instead 'transformed' into their spiritual bodies.  The alive and remaining.   

9. Enoch and Elijah who WERE transformed but then return to die and resurrect when the Lord returns at the 2nd Advent, when #8 takes place. 
 

[DeighAnn]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

No. 1st Thessalonians was written because Paul had only spent 3 weeks there before fleeing (Act.17). He had taught the rapture and had not time enough to teach all details. Since the rapture is for the LIVING, the Church at Thessaloniki became sorrowful when some of the saints died. They thought that the dead saints would now miss the rapture. Paul corrects this and show that the living  will NOT PREVENT (or "precede" - YLT) the dead (v.15).

THIS had not been mentioned until now,  so I will respond.  

You said Paul had taught the rapture?  Where did you read that?   

It may have been 3 weeks and he may have been fleeing but WHAT he was teaching while he was in Thess, is made very clear in 2 Thess,


and it is ALL ABOUT THE LORD COMING AFTER the workings of Satan to gather us to him. 

A few of the things Paul points out in  1 THESS are

Who the information will be useful to

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Since we KNOW the day comes as a thief in the night, IT DOESN'T COME as a 'thief in the night to us. 

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

And what will we hear them saying? 

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety;

And when we hear that what will happen?   And who will it happen to?

then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Only way the 'day of the Lord' will come as a thief in the night is if you are walking in darkness.  But since we are not in darkness that day shall not overtake us as a thief in the night but we will be expecting it. 
 

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


RECAP  -  WHAT DO THE BRETHREN KNOW?  

1.  The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night - TO THOSE IN DARKNESS.  So it DOESN'T COME AS A THIEF in the night to those in the light.

2.  THAT DAY won't OVERTAKE US, 'as a thief', but the DAY is still coming UPON US

3.  Destruction comes upon THEM, THEY shall not escape, and we notice it does not fall upon us.  

4.  The brethren aka CHRISTIANS, THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST will hear them say Peace and Safety.  



Then he goes on to say

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.



WHAT instructions are we given about the day of the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day,

1.  be sober,

2.  putting on the breastplate of faith and love;

3.  and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


WHY ARE WE TO PUT THOSE THINGS ON?  PROTECTION.  And why are we to have protection upon us? 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us,

that, whether we wake or sleep,  we should live together with him.
(THAT IS DEFINITELY NOT IN HADES)

AND what is WRITTEN in that 2nd letter?   HOW MUCH 'ESCAPING PERSECUTION' BY A PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS SPOKEN OF?  

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

ALL that you endure.  Does that seem like there is a point in which 'TO MUCH' might be reached? 

REALIZE,  If it wasn't for the pre trib rapture theory, THERE WOULDN'T EVEN BE A QUESTION, as there has never been a 'too much' ever.  Don't fear man who can kill the body.....

Remember that 'whether we wake or sleep,' doesn't make the SLIGHTEST DIFFERENCE TO GOD. 

Pre trib asks "would God let the church suffer".  HE HAS FOR THE PAST 2000 YEARS AND THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN DEATH.  AND NOTHING WILL BEFALL US THAT HASN'T BEFALLEN THOSE WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE.  SO YES, GOD WILL LET THE CHURCH, BODY OF CHRIST, CHRISTIANS BE PERSECUTED.  

BUT WHY?
 

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer


AND THESE NEXT FEW LINES HAVE A WORLD OF INFORMATION,   ALSO
 

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you
 

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
 

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
 

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

IT'S almost like GOD KNEW there would be a 'pre trib theory' running around and so went out of His way to make sure there could be no question. WHAT ELSE DOES PAUL TELL US ABOUT his teachings in Thessalonica? 


 

2  Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you,  that our God would count you worthy of this calling,
and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness,
and the work of faith with power:

There is no 'CALLING TO HEAVEN' taking place.  

AND here, WHERE IN ALL of GODS WORD it should be made the MOST CLEAR,  WE GET NOTHING  BUT THE OPPOSITE.  


2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If that isn't what it is all about...If that isn't something that would bring the FATHER JOY...If I could be a part of that...


Why does Paul go OUT OF HIS WAY to make sure this next part is super clear?  Why does he repeat the same thing over and over in different ways?  What is the entire  reason for the 2nd letter....
 

2  Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


Straight forward and simple, it's about the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and 'OUR GATHERING' to Him.

So, What about it? 


2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,

don't get all shook up, it's going to be awhile

neither by spirit,  nor by word,

so don't let something you hear, 

nor by letter as from us,

not even that first letter he wrote, 

as that the day of Christ is at hand.

MAKE YOU BELIEVE THAT RETURN of the Lord is happening NOW, is present, has happened.  Don't let what anyone says DECEIVE YOU into believing the Lord will be returning and gathering US to him 

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:


until 

for that day shall not come,


WHAT DAY PAUL IS PREACHING ABOUT?  THE DAY OF "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ",
which is the SAME day that he will be  gathering us

That we know this is about the 2nd ADVENT, there can be NO DOUBT. 

So when will THIS DAY, THE DAY THE LORD COMES AND GATHERS US TAKE PLACE?   


except there come a falling away first,


After a 'falling away', so 'before' that day comes there will be...

646. apostasia ►
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."



and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


601. apokaluptó ►
Strong's Concordance
apokaluptó: to uncover, reveal
Original Word: ἀποκαλύπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apokaluptó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-al-oop'-to)
Definition: to uncover, reveal
Usage: I uncover, bring to light, reveal.
HELPS Word-studies
601 apokalýptō (from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2572 /kalýptō, "to cover") – properly, uncover, revealing what is hidden (veiled, obstructed), especially its inner make-up; (figuratively) to make plain (manifest), particularly what is immaterial (invisible).

 

THE SON OF PERDITION REVEALED.  Who is the son of perdition?  There is only one I know of who has been sentenced to death and that took place in the very beginning

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So we know the REVEAL is not about being given information, SO THE REVEAL IS WHEN HE

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

So BRETHREN IS, 

HE WILL BE OPPOSING AND EXALTING HIMSELF ABOVE GOD AND ALL THAT IS WORSHIPPED?

 

AND THAT IS WHAT PAUL WAS TEACHING WHEN HE WAS WITH THEM. 


HE SAYS SO RIGHT HERE.  

2  Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

[DeighAnn]

15 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Ok. It's the " 8 or 9 types" part that you believe the scriptures describe is kind of hard to follow. 

My foundational beliefs are different in that :

1) I do not believe there is a literal millennial reign of Christ or LMROC for short.

2) I do not believe that there is an eternal place of torture for the unsaved, and that the word " hell" is actually another way of saying "the grave". 

3) I believe that Jesus will come immediately after the tribulation period at the last day of this world, and all those alive in Christ will be waiting for Him!

 

I understand.  Most of the world does.  

If you look at MOST doctrine preached today they all have one thing in common.  Satan isn't coming.  Don't worry.  Or Christ is coming to get you before Satan comes.  Don't worry.  Or Satan came already.  Don't worry.  Or none of it is  literal.  Don't worry.  

I show you where IT IS WRITTEN, in words IMPOSSIBLE to be misunderstood,

 And that which thou sowest,      thou sowest NOT that body that shall be, 


BUT

 NOT ONLY do you choose to believe WE DO sow the body that SHALL BE 

you are willing to take it to THE FURTHEST EXTREME POSSIBLE  and say 

EVEN IF...  THAT BODY... HAS TURNED BACK TO DUST, even if... that body... is WHATEVER rank rude nasty gross disgusting deplorable condition it may be found in, that is what GOD uses, 

THAT is, THE BODY THAT SHALL BE.  

You know, If I believed that was how the Eternal glorious workings of our RIGHTEOUS LORD GOD Almighty went,  I don't think I would believe in the Millennium either.  





 

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THIS had not been mentioned until now,  so I will respond.  

You said Paul had taught the rapture?  Where did you read that?   

It may have been 3 weeks and he may have been fleeing but WHAT he was teaching while he was in Thess, is made very clear in 2 Thess,


and it is ALL ABOUT THE LORD COMING AFTER the workings of Satan to gather us to him. 

The context of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is here set forth.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

First, I do not know what your objection was exactly. But since Paul never returned to Thessaloniki, the facts reported in 2nd Thessalonians refer to his 3-week visit all the same as the first letter. So verse 5 applies to both letters.

In verse 5 Paul refers to what he taught"when he was with them", and in verse 1 it was the connection between FIRST the coming of our Lord Jesus and in connection with His coming, SECOND - our being gathered to Him. The Lord COMING and our GATHERING to him are joined by "AND". The word "and" is a conjunction which is (1) copulative (it joins things), (ii) cumulative (it adds things) and (iii) sequential (it sets an order. Thus, "our gathering" is connected with and in conjunction with the Coming of the Lord.

This would agree perfectly with 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1st Corinthians 15:23 were we are resurrected and raptured ONLY AT HIS COMING!

It should not be needed to say, but I do so nevertheless, that (i) the Day of Christ, the falling away, (ii) the revelation of the man of sin and (iii) him taking a position in a Temple, are ALL CONNECTED with the end of the age.

Thus is maintained the theme of the whole Bible that the general resurrection of the Church and Israel is "WHEN HE COMES". Until then, men stay in Hades waiting to RISE. That is also in accordance with our Lord Jesus having the "keys to Hades" (Rev.1:9), so that He opens and shuts as He wishes.

From verse 2 Paul gives some indications

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The context of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is here set forth.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

First, I do not know what your objection was exactly. But since Paul never returned to Thessaloniki, the facts reported in 2nd Thessalonians refer to his 3-week visit all the same as the first letter. So verse 5 applies to both letters.

In verse 5 Paul refers to what he taught"when he was with them", and in verse 1 it was the connection between FIRST the coming of our Lord Jesus and in connection with His coming, SECOND - our being gathered to Him. The Lord COMING and our GATHERING to him are joined by "AND". The word "and" is a conjunction which is (1) copulative (it joins things), (ii) cumulative (it adds things) and (iii) sequential (it sets an order. Thus, "our gathering" is connected with and in conjunction with the Coming of the Lord.

This would agree perfectly with 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1st Corinthians 15:23 were we are resurrected and raptured ONLY AT HIS COMING!

It should not be needed to say, but I do so nevertheless, that (i) the Day of Christ, the falling away, (ii) the revelation of the man of sin and (iii) him taking a position in a Temple, are ALL CONNECTED with the end of the age.

Thus is maintained the theme of the whole Bible that the general resurrection of the Church and Israel is "WHEN HE COMES". Until then, men stay in Hades waiting to RISE. That is also in accordance with our Lord Jesus having the "keys to Hades" (Rev.1:9), so that He opens and shuts as He wishes.

From verse 2 Paul gives some indications

Can you just copy and paste Scripture and explain it under each verse like I did because I can't understand what you are saying what says.  Thank you

Edited May 19, 2022 by DeighAnn

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Can you just copy and paste Scripture and explain it under each verse like I did because I can't understand what you are saying what says.  Thank you

O.K. I'll try. But I can tell you now that your difficulty is not my format. Your difficulty is that you you have decided on a system of belief, and you stick to that system even when scripture does not say it. That is, you have decided on your understanding and look upon scripture with "tinted" glasses. My commentary is perfectly legible, but deep down you reject it outright. Heaven is your treasure, and I am an enemy trying to take it away. You cannot afford to consider my arguments. Your heart is set on heaven.

A little while ago, I challenged you to write a page or two to build a case for a dead man going to heaven. You flatly ignored it. That is your right, so I'm not complaining, but any sustained logical argument cannot  survive a page or two of commentary if it has been viewed incorrectly. It is there that you can test yourself. In a previous posting you wrote three paragraphs, and I was able to show clashing facts in all three paragraphs.

But, to your request for a verse + comments style of 2 Thessalonians 2:1–5;

Background:

- Paul was in Thessaloniki too short a time to teach all truths. A modern university student needs three years to of daily teaching and study to get a rudimentary knowledge of the Bible. The Thessalonians had Paul for only 3 weeks.

- The problem in 1st Thessalonians was that the saints thought that if a Christian died, he/she would miss the rapture - since the rapture is always by the LIVING. Paul shows, in Chapter 4, that the living will NOT PRECEDE the dead. the dead will RISE and TOGETHER they will be raptured.

- The problem in 2nd Thessalonians was that the persecution was so aggressive against the Christians that the saints thought that (i) the Great Tribulation had started and that (ii) they had thus missed the rapture. Paul corrects it by showing a number of things that must first come to pass before the rapture occurs

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

In verse 1 Paul sets forth WHEN we are to be raptured. It is "WHEN THE LORD COMES". The word "AND" is a conjunction that (i) joins two things, (ii) adds a thing, and (iii) sets a sequence. "Dynamite AND a detonator (two things together) are dangerous AND explode when the detonator activated (a sequence). In verse 1 Paul says FIRST "the COMING"  and then "AND" (setting a sequence) our gathering to Him". Or try this:

"My lover ARRIVED AND I kissed him". It would be incorrect and illogical to say; "I kissed my lover and then he arrived."

Christ FIRST COMES and THEN we are gathered to Him (same sequence as 1st Cor,15:23 and 1st Thess.4:13-17)

But there is more. The word "COMING" in the Greek is "parousia". "Parousia" actually means "PRESENCE" It is literally; "Arrival of his PRESENCE". This doubly proves that our gathering in rapture is at the end of the age when Jesus comes.

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

"The day of CHRIST" differs from the "the Day of the Lord". The "day of Christ" and/or "the day of Jesus Christ" is only used when the Church is in view. When Israel or the Nations are in view, it is always; "the day of the Lord". The "day of Christ" pertains only to the gathering of the Church for judgment.

Paul says that there was still time before this happened. Why?

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Some things must happen first. (i) APOSTASY in the Church. If you read 1st Thessalonians 1 and 3, you will see what a good Church they were. No apostasy yet. (ii) The man of sin revealed. The Beast will reign for 7 years. But he is appointed universal king by 10 other kings. That is, he must be KNOWN and appreciated BEFORE he gets his throne. So the sequence of the Beast is:
1."Revealed" to men and proven to be a master politician
2. "Crowned" by 10 kings at the beginning of the last 7 years
3. "Worshiped" by all after 3½ years
The Thessalonian saints had not yet seen him "revealed" so the rapture could not have taken place

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

A TEMPLE !!! The man of sin will sit in a Temple in Jerusalem. This will take about 6 months to build (as all the plans and materials are ready right now). If you see a Temple started in Jerusalem, THEN only is the rapture near.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had taught them but they had forgotten. He bids, "REMEMBER". But every one who ever taught the bible knows how quickly the saints FORGET!

I hope this format helps you better.

Edited May 19, 2022 by AdHoc
format

[kwikphilly]

Blessings D,Brothers & Sisters

   Nicely done-now this is called "reasoning together"....it is refreshing to see at least 3 people disagreeing yet ever so nicely explaining their own position,why you take that position & how you are interpreting Scripture AND then with all due respect,listening to the other do the same

   This is how the Body of Christ should be speaking to one another,the conclusions do not even have to be(one is right & 1 is wrong) because these are non-Salvational matters.....we are probably all a little bit right & a little bit wrong until we can see clearly when we are in our New Glorified Bodies,which we all agree we will one day Receive because Jesus Promises it shall be so!

                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

[DeighAnn]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:06 AM, AdHoc said:

- The problem in 1st Thessalonians was that the saints thought that if a Christian died, he/she would miss the rapture - since the rapture is always by the LIVING. Paul shows, in Chapter 4, that the living will NOT PRECEDE the dead. the dead will RISE and TOGETHER they will be raptured.

This is where we first part ways. 

Thess 4 
YOU SAY THE "saints 'THOUGHT'  a Christian 'would miss the rapture...."  WHERE ARE THOSE THOUGHTS WRITTEN?   I have NEVER SEEN any thing LIKE THAT written in Gods words and 

Since ONLY HIS WORDS have been 'purified' ALL I CAN TRUST are GODS WORDS.  

I know if you could show me where IT was WRITTEN, you would, but   

you can not.  You can talk above it and around it over it and under it and you can give me thousands of reasons for those thoughts, but WHAT you CAN NOT DO, is show me where ANY of them can be found.  THAT is our first problem. 


Until you DO THAT EVERYTHING that you say that 'follows' that premise must be THROWN OUT as it is NOT based ON GODS WORDS,  but mans wisdom and knowledge and there is no reason to discuss it AT ALL. 

SO what I am REJECTING is EVERYTHING that STEMS from 'mans wisdom and knowledge'.  

So where we stand RIGHT NOW IS you need to put forth YOUR BASIC PREMISE from the words of God.  Once you do that, we can move forward.    



It is so strange how PRE TRIB Rapture just suddenly APPEARS out of thin air and no one seems to notice.   
 

1Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

1Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

1Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

1Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

No mention the CHRISTIANS are thinking 'those who died MISSED THE RAPTURE' ONLY they have sorrow because of those who have died?  I would  be sad to if I thought my family was in Hades too. 

Christs 'return' hasn't even been brought up, so it hasn't anything to do with the conversation so far.  Even if we go back to Matt 1 and read straight through to here, NOT ONE WORD of what you are proposing 'as truth' can be found ANYWHERE.  SO,  leaving that 'premise' UNTIL you can show me that to be a truth, I go with what is written and so far, all that is given is,  

we SHOULD NOT BE IGNORANT like the heathen, who have no hope

we should not be sad CONCERNING those who have died

and now we are going to be told WHY we shouldn't be.  
 

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,


We shouldn't be sad because we believe Jesus HAS RISEN.


even so them


And we should be BELIEVING 'even so them' have RISEN ALSO.   And THAT is about to be PROVED correct,  by what follows.  


also which sleep in Jesus


NOW we can know for POSITIVE that ROSE is EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING SPOKEN OF since the 'sleep' part was just ruled out 


will God bring with him.


AND WITH THAT PART OF THE VERSE, THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT left at all.  So without all the STUFF you yourself BROUGHT INTO THE TEXT,

" WHAT IS WRITTEN" IS straight forward and simple and  what I keep saying IT IS.  




and HERE comes the BEST proof of all.   

NOTHING IS STOPPING THEM FROM GOING TO BE WITH THE LORD. 

THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE DON'T STOP THOSE WHO ARE DEAD FROM GOING TO BE WITH THE LORD. 

THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE DON'T 'PREVENT OR HINDER OR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THOSE WHO HAVE DIED BEING RAISED UP. 

EVERY SINGLE 'SAVED SOUL'  UP UNTIL THE 'ALIVE AND REMAINING' ARE CHANGED, GO TO BE WITH THE LORD.  



IF THE ALIVE AND REMAINING DID PREVENT THE DEAD FROM RISING, THEN, AND ONLY THEN, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE FOR EVERYONE BE RAISED/RESURRECTED,  AT ONE TIME OR ON A 'LAST DAY' .   
 

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


TRY AND GET THAT RIGHT.  


If the last ones were stopping the first ones,  THEN THERE WOULD BE A BIG GROUP OF ALL THE DEAD.  


THE FIRST ones to DIE,  don't WAIT for the last ones,

and if there is no one preventing them, if NO ONE IS STOPPING THEM, 

if no one is holding them back from their GOING ON to be with the LORD


THEN THERE IS NO WAY FOR 'EVERYONE' TO BE RESURRECTED AT THE SAME TIME.  

 

[DeighAnn]

On 5/17/2022 at 4:21 PM, AdHoc said:

Paul shows how the dead,

I realize I keep asking this same question over and over and over again, but HOW DO YOU GET FROM

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

TO PAUL SHOWING

HOW 'THE DEAD'...


Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

They are looking for their reward.   Today 'the reward' is a  PRE TRIB RAPTURE, isn't it?  BUT what does The Lord tell them?    

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
 

He certainly knew of His return for the Day of Vengeance (by closing Isiah).  He spoke of His return many times AND NEVER did He mention a PRE TRIB RAPTURE not the slightest hesitation ever, not a single side reference, not a hint.     


Could you EXPLAIN to me who you believe 'the woman' who is protected for the  3 1/2 years Satan is here is?  There ISN'T enough TIME for 'a new church' rising up from what would be the timing of a 'rap' to his arrival.  

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You see, when you take 'the church' off the face of the earth, there is no WOMAN to fly into the wilderness to be nourished.  

This is a problem for me because I believe 'the true church' is the woman.  And 'she will be protected while  Satan is here.  I believe it is only Gods very elect who will be given up to death, who will have 10 day trials, who the Holy Spirit will speak through.  Those who don't 'need' an escape made because it isnt more than they can handle, who can handle whatever is put before them, who WANT to STAND for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.