Different peoples, Different covenants, Different deaths, will NEVER fit into an 'either/or' explanation

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You concluded that which I underlined. The trouble is, David did not say this. Peter did. It was a man living a thousand years after David who said that David's body was still there in Jerusalem, and that David was still in Hades, and that David had no ascended yet.

YES, I AGREE with WHO SAID IT and I AGREE with THE TRUTH of what is written. 


I just don't agree that PETER SAID  

1.   DAVID WAS STILL IN HADES, nor
2.  THAT DAVID HAD NOT ASCENDED YET

WHAT I believe is it is written that

1. David died and was buried AND HIS TOMB WAS STILL IN JERUSALEM, and
2. Before David DIED and ASCENDED,   He had said/spoke prophecy 




Men, Israelites, hear the words these:  Jesus of Nazareth a man having been set forth by God to you by miracles and wonders and signs which did by Him God in the midst of you as you yourselves know
 

Him by the determinate plan and foreknowledge of God delivered up by hands lawless having been crucified You put to death

whom God raised up, having loosed the agony of death inasmuch as not it was possible to be held Him by it

David for says about Him I foresaw the Lord before me continually everything because at [the] right hand of me He is, that not I should be shaken

Because of this was glad of me the heart and rejoiced the tongue of me and now also the flesh of me will dwell in hope

for not You will abandon the soul of me into Hades

NOR will You allow the Holy One of You to see decay

You have made known to me paths of life You will fill me with joy in the presence of You

Men, brothers, it is permitted [me] to speak with freedom to you concerning the patriarch David

that both he died and was buried and the tomb of him is among us unto the day this.
 

A prophet therefore being and knowing that with an oath swore to him God out of [the] fruit of the loins of him to set upon the throne of him

Having foreseen, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was He abandoned into Hades nor the flesh of Him saw decay

This Jesus has raised up God whereof all we are witnesses

To the right hand therefore of God having been exalted and the promise of the Spirit Holy having received from the Father He has poured out this which you both are seeing and hearing.



Does this next part say 
DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS?  
or
BEFORE DAVID DIED,  "HE SAID" THESE WORDS?
   

Not for David ascended into the heavens,  he says, however himself:
SAID the Lord to [the] Lord of me, Sit at [the] right hand of Me

until I place the enemies of You a footstool of the feet of You
 

I believe DAVID spoke those words BEFORE he died,  which came before he ASCENDED into heaven.  

 

 

[AdHoc]

38 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

YES, I AGREE with WHO SAID IT and I AGREE with THE TRUTH of what is written. 


I just don't agree that PETER SAID  

1.   DAVID WAS STILL IN HADES, nor
2.  THAT DAVID HAD NOT ASCENDED YET

WHAT I believe is it is written that

1. David died and was buried AND HIS TOMB WAS STILL IN JERUSALEM, and
2. Before David DIED and ASCENDED,   He had said/spoke prophecy 




Men, Israelites, hear the words these:  Jesus of Nazareth a man having been set forth by God to you by miracles and wonders and signs which did by Him God in the midst of you as you yourselves know
 

Him by the determinate plan and foreknowledge of God delivered up by hands lawless having been crucified You put to death

whom God raised up, having loosed the agony of death inasmuch as not it was possible to be held Him by it

David for says about Him I foresaw the Lord before me continually everything because at [the] right hand of me He is, that not I should be shaken

Because of this was glad of me the heart and rejoiced the tongue of me and now also the flesh of me will dwell in hope

for not You will abandon the soul of me into Hades

NOR will You allow the Holy One of You to see decay

You have made known to me paths of life You will fill me with joy in the presence of You

Men, brothers, it is permitted [me] to speak with freedom to you concerning the patriarch David

that both he died and was buried and the tomb of him is among us unto the day this.
 

A prophet therefore being and knowing that with an oath swore to him God out of [the] fruit of the loins of him to set upon the throne of him

Having foreseen, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was He abandoned into Hades nor the flesh of Him saw decay

This Jesus has raised up God whereof all we are witnesses

To the right hand therefore of God having been exalted and the promise of the Spirit Holy having received from the Father He has poured out this which you both are seeing and hearing.



Does this next part say 
DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS?  
or
BEFORE DAVID DIED,  "HE SAID" THESE WORDS?
   

Not for David ascended into the heavens,  he says, however himself:
SAID the Lord to [the] Lord of me, Sit at [the] right hand of Me

until I place the enemies of You a footstool of the feet of You
 

I believe DAVID spoke those words BEFORE he died,  which came before he ASCENDED into heaven.  

 

 

David did not say those words. Peter did.

Peter was not prophesying about David. He was CONTRASTING the great man David with the greatest man Jesus. The DIFFERENCE between David and Jesus is, according to the inspired record:-
- David is dead and his tomb is in Jerusalem - Jesus is alive and a tomb in Jerusalem is EMPTY. He has no tomb

- David is still in HADES - Jesus has exited Hades

- In DEATH, David's BODY is in Jerusalem and David's SOUL is in Hades

- Jesus, having set aside death is in HEAVEN, BODILY

- David, still bound by death, is NOT ASCENDED

- Jesus, having been DISPLAYED to hundreds of witnesses, and HANDLED by His disciples, and having declared His resurrection body to be FLESH and BONES, is BODILY in Heaven.

Just take five minutes to read your posting. You spend an inordinate amount of writing time trying to get a simple passage to say something else. Why not just follow the rules of language - AND - what the rest of the Bible says.

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

What I did address was that Christ still had His wounds. What I did address was that Christ's Body did not see corruption. What I did address is that if we examine 1st Corinthians 15, we will find the previous body made new. But I will start with this one simple argument - one that you refuse to enter into discussion about. In Romans 6:5 and Philippians 3:21 is says severally;

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

It is evident from the plain language that our resurrection is LIKE that of Christ.

You keep going back to CHRISTS FLESH BODY being resurrected LIKE WE ARE THE SAME AS HIM.  WE are NOT the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.  There is no prophecy for us about our bodies not suffering corruption.  

If YOU BELIEVE we must RAISE UP IN THE FLESH TO BE IN THE LIKENESS OF HIM, then also in the likeness of what He did, we would need to be raised from the dead, ascend to God, descend back to the earth, stay for over a month and then go back to GOD again and sit at His right hand until enemies made our footstool?  


It EVEN was A given PROPHECY that HIS FLESH BODY would not be left.  Doesn't that tell you that that is different from us?   Do you remember THE DEVIL contending for the 'bones' of Moses?  Why do you think God didn't leave the body of Jesus or Moses behind?

How many times are we told our bodies will go back to dust?  Doesn't that ALONE tell you our resurrection will not be as His was?  IN LIKENESS, NOT REPLICATION.   

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

OUR VILE BODY CHANGE -  just like this natural body provides the SEED for the Spiritual body.  


μετασχηματίζω: future μετασχηματίσω (cf. Buttmann, 37 (32)); 1 aorist μετεσχημάτισα; middle present μετασχηματίζομαι; to change the figure of, to transform (see μετά, III. 2): τί, Philippians 3:21 (see below); middle followed by εἰς τινα, to transform oneself into someone, to assume one's appearance, 2 Corinthians 11:13f; followed by ὡς τίς, so as to have the appearance of someone, 2 Corinthians 11:15; μετασχηματίζω τί εἰς τινα, to shape one's discourse so as to transfer to oneself what holds true of the whole class to which one belongs, i. e. so as to illustrate by what one says of himself what holds true of all: 1 Corinthians 4:6, where the meaning is, 'by what I have said of myself and Apollos, I have shown what holds true of all Christian teachers.' (4 Macc. 9:22; Plato, legg. 10, p. 903 e.; (Aristotle, de caele 3, 1, p. 298{b}, 31, etc.); Josephus, Antiquities 7, 10, 5; 8, 11, 1; Plutarch, Ages. 14; def. orac. c. 30; (Philo, leg. ad Gaium § 11); Sextus Empiricus, 10, p. 688, Fabric. edition (p. 542, 23 edition, Bekker).) [SYNONYMS: μεταμορφόω, μετασχηματίζω: (cf. Philippians 3:21) "μετασχηματίζω would here refer to the transient condition from which, μεταμορφόω to the permanent state to which, the change takes place. Trench (N. T. Synonyms, § lxx.), however, supposes that μετασχηματίζω is here preferred to μεταμορφόω as expressing 'transition but no absolute solution of continuity', the spiritual body being developed from the natural, as the butterfly from the caterpillar" (Lightfoot on Phil. 'Detached Note,' p. 131). See μορφή, at the end]




1 Pet 1:23
Having been born again not of seed perishale but of imperishable by [the] word living of God and abiding
313. anagennaó ►
Strong's Concordance
anagennaó: to beget again
Original Word: ἀναγεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: anagennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ag-en-nah'-o)
Definition: to beget again
Usage: I beget again, beget into a new life.
HELPS Word-studies
313 anagennáō (from 303 /aná, "up, again," which intensifies 1080 /gennáō, "give birth") – properly, born-again or "born from on high."

313 /anagennáō ("born again, from above") is used twice in the NT (1 Pet 1:3,23) – both times referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).

 3306. menó ►

Strong's Concordance
menó: to stay, abide, remain

Original Word: μένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: menó
Phonetic Spelling: (men'-o)
Definition: to stay, abide, remain
Usage: I remain, abide, stay, wait; with acc: I wait for, await.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
a prim. verb
Definition
to stay, abide, remain
NASB Translation
abide (16), abides (22), abiding (4), await (1), continue (4), continues (1), endures (3), enduring (1), lasting (2), lives (1), living (1), remain (20), remained (6), remaining (1), remains (8), stand (1), stay (11), stayed (11), staying (3), waiting (1).

WHEN IS THE INCORRUPTIBLE SEED 'PLANTED'?  When we DIE or when we are BORN AGAIN?   WHEN does our eternal LIFE BEGIN



3345. metaschématizó ►
Strong's Concordance
metaschématizó: to change in fashion or appearance
Original Word: μετασχηματίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metaschématizó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo)
Definition: to change in fashion or appearance
Usage: I change the outward appearance (the dress, the form of presentment) of something, transfigure; I adapt.
HELPS Word-studies
3345 metasxēmatízō (from 3326 /metá, "with, bringing about change, after-effect" and 4976 /sxḗma, "outward shape") – properly, to change outward appearance after a change.



Got any SCRIPTURE saying the 'dead flesh' resurrects? 

[DeighAnn]

12 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

David did not say those words. Peter did.

Neither of them did.  That was YOU.  

[DeighAnn]

13 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

David did not say those words. Peter did.

Peter was not prophesying about David. He was CONTRASTING the great man David with the greatest man Jesus. The DIFFERENCE between David and Jesus is, according to the inspired record:-
- David is dead and his tomb is in Jerusalem - Jesus is alive and a tomb in Jerusalem is EMPTY. He has no tomb

- David is still in HADES - Jesus has exited Hades

- In DEATH, David's BODY is in Jerusalem and David's SOUL is in Hades

- Jesus, having set aside death is in HEAVEN, BODILY

- David, still bound by death, is NOT ASCENDED

- Jesus, having been DISPLAYED to hundreds of witnesses, and HANDLED by His disciples, and having declared His resurrection body to be FLESH and BONES, is BODILY in Heaven.

Just take five minutes to read your posting. You spend an inordinate amount of writing time trying to get a simple passage to say something else. Why not just follow the rules of language - AND - what the rest of the Bible says.

DAVID CARCASS is rotting and decaying in a tomb  IT WAS SOWN, IT WAS RAISED

 

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

EVERYONE WHO ADDS A SEPARATION OF TIME IS ADDING TO THE WORDS OF GOD

[DeighAnn]

19 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

- Jesus, having been DISPLAYED to hundreds of witnesses, and HANDLED by His disciples, and having declared His resurrection body to be FLESH and BONES, is BODILY in Heaven.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT



 

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

[DeighAnn]

36 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

- In DEATH, David's BODY is in Jerusalem and David's SOUL is in Hades

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


TO EVERY SEED A BODY

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

By the rules of grammar, this is what will happen.

2Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2Corinthians 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

2Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

2Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

not of the letter, but of the spirit:

for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

You keep going back to CHRISTS FLESH BODY being resurrected LIKE WE ARE THE SAME AS HIM.  WE are NOT the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.  There is no prophecy for us about our bodies not suffering corruption.  

If YOU BELIEVE we must RAISE UP IN THE FLESH TO BE IN THE LIKENESS OF HIM, then also in the likeness of what He did, we would need to be raised from the dead, ascend to God, descend back to the earth, stay for over a month and then go back to GOD again and sit at His right hand until enemies made our footstool?  


It EVEN was A given PROPHECY that HIS FLESH BODY would not be left.  Doesn't that tell you that that is different from us?   Do you remember THE DEVIL contending for the 'bones' of Moses?  Why do you think God didn't leave the body of Jesus or Moses behind?

How many times are we told our bodies will go back to dust?  Doesn't that ALONE tell you our resurrection will not be as His was?  IN LIKENESS, NOT REPLICATION.  

It is remarkable that I can quote scripture as proof but you will not go into them. Then, you write something that I did not address, and argue it with all your might. Just for the record:
- I did not say that there was a prophecy that our bodies would not see corruption. But you have attributed it to me and then argued the point

- I did NOT admit any BELIEF. I quoted scripture. But you attack my "belief" which I never addressed

- I pointed out that scripture says that we are raised with bodies LIKE His, not that we would be seated anywhere or travel anywhere. You added this and then argued against it

I will post the verses again for all to see, and for you to comment on if you can.

Rom.6:5; For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Phil.3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1st Jn.3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

To most of us who have high-school English, the meaning is plain. I need no comment. But you deny these, therefore it is YOU that must show why they don't mean what they say.

Edited May 16, 2022 by AdHoc
format

[Cntrysner]

On 5/15/2022 at 11:10 AM, AdHoc said:

I'll post it again for you to read an apply the grammar.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Th 4:16–17)

By the rules of grammar, this is what will happen.
1. Jesus must first descend (v.16). This He has not yet done.
2. THEN, once he has descended a shout and trump sound
3. THEN, the DEAD in Christ will RISE (direction from below to a higher point)
4. THEN, the LIVING in Christ, shall be caught away (lit. Gk.) TOGETHER with those who have just RISEN

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

It is true that God will bring those that died in Christ with Christ when he returns (descends) and it can't be denied and it is first in order at His return.

Paul is speaking to the perspective of the alive and remaining and the first thing is they will hear the trump and be caught up to meet those that God brought with Christ. Paul is not listing a chronolgical order of things, His main point is that they sorrow not because Christ will bring their lost loved ones with Him.

On 5/15/2022 at 11:10 AM, AdHoc said:

Here are some observations:
1. The dead in Christ will only rise from Hades to the surface of the earth when Christ comes, when an archangel shouts, and when His trumpet blows. This has not yet happened

2. Scripture speaks of those ALIVE. But then adds "and remain". This is so scripture is 100% correct. There are some who are alive but have been removed, like Elijah. The are alive BUT DO NOT REMAIN.

3. The resurrected DEAD only go the clouds AFTER they RISE. The resurrected DEAD only go to the clouds TOGETHER with the living.

4. They "MEET" the Lord in the air. If the dead had already ascended why would they have to meet the Lord?

Sad to think that God will send those that died in Christ to Hades.

On 5/15/2022 at 11:10 AM, AdHoc said:

And YES! I do believe that Jesus is a prototype. Consider Colossians 1:17-18;

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1. The word "FIRST-born" implies many after Him
2. The word "preeminence" declares that man will do the same but he is the first
3. Romans 6:5 says; "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."
4. Philippians 3:21 says; "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"

When was Jesus Glorified?