Different peoples, Different covenants, Different deaths, will NEVER fit into an 'either/or' explanation

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Please tell me where I MIS STATED that Jesus never died.  I have NEVER held that belief.  NEVER.  WHAT I believe is SINCE HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD, that those who are SAVED NEVER GO TO HADES.  Their FLESH bodies die and they ascend to heaven in their heavenly bodies. 


AGAIN, PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE I SAID 'JESUS DIDN'T DIE'

SO I CAN GO AND FIND A WAY TO CORRECT IT.

Here is your statement, Page 7, midway down;

Quote

Still making those given ETERNAL LIFERS part of the dead, huh?  That must be hard to do.  

NEVER DIE equals and/or 'really means' death or being dead?  Nothing about that seems the least bit OFF to you?  

Our Lord Jesus not only possessed eternal life, but was that LIFE itself. But He partook of death. So, why not explain yourself - or my observation stands.

 

Disregard please

1 hour ago, Cntrysner said:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cntrysner said:

You need to tone it down, you have insinuated that others are fools, ignorant and poorly educated and it is not very becoming of one that professes to hold the truth in Christ. 

I hear you. I apologize if that offended you.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

Well said and Paul would agree with you. You will never get them to understand because they mind the things of the earth and just can't let go of their flesh and what is pleasing to it.

I understand that holding on to the bitter end, it is SCARY losing your foundation, even if it's a false one.  You go into a freefall of sorts and we have to remember, there is a lot that goes along with accepting one truth, the leading to another. 

I personally think before the advent of computers, God would have 'allowed' more in the way of 'being taken in by deception'.  But that time is quickly coming to an end,  as WHAT IS WRITTEN can no longer be denied and the going from one to the other doesn't work anymore.  
If we don't put out the truth, then the only found are lies. Maybe at one time that was was not big deal, but now it is a big deal.  Great thing about this side of the debate,  is Gods words just keep giving you more and more to work with, and there are less and less paths open on the other side.

God Bless and Soldier on...    What if He finds a fire kindled?  Only we can do that. 



Just cause I hadn't read this in a while...

Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Luke 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

 

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Luke 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

How accurate the Word is 2000 years later...

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I'll just do this with Scripture
 

MY "THEORY" as you call it,  OF 'NO DEATH' COMES FROM
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So you may NOW stop calling that 'a theory' and start calling it a fact.  Or can you?

If you're interested, I handled this in the thread;

Is there anything WRITTEN stating 'FLESH' rises or will be raised at any time? (besides Christ's, of course)

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/278571-is-there-anything-written-stating-flesh-rises-or-will-be-raised-at-any-time-besides-christs-of-course/?do=findComment&comment=3507877

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

MY THEORY OF 'a second body waiting to zoom up to heaven at the death of the first'

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

NOTICE, I DON'T 'ADD' A TIME DELAY.  THAT COMES FROM THE THEORIES OF MAN.  I READ WHAT IS WRITTEN AND TAKE IT AS TRUTH.

IT IS SOWN IT IS RAISED =  never die
It is sown, it remains in hades = part of the dead

But verse 23 gives a massive time delay. Your theory of two bodies is also annulled here in these verses. The word "IT" refers, by the rules of grammar, to the SAME BODY.

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Then you say "You made it fiction yourself for, the original death you designated as "Captivity" - which was have denied, but then claimed that it is led Captive by the great work of our Lord"

The scriptures you posted do not answer the question. Based on John 11 you claim that there is no death among those with eternal life. But in an earlier posting you claimed that the "Captivity" was the dead saints. That is the anomaly we discuss.

 

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Death of the flesh and the spirit/soul/spiritual body going to heaven without a 2000 year stay in Hades is death of the flesh only

The spiritual body is not secret.

Jesus is the only 'flesh' body ever risen out from the dead and gone to heaven.  All of us don't go in our natural flesh earth bodies but in our spiritual ones.  Jesus does have Preeminence.  He will always have ascended higher than anyone. 

In 2nd Corinthians 5 ...

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

... please explain why the heavenly body "swallows mortality"? In your theory the earthly body rots and perishes forever while you take a new spiritual body. This means that mortality is never defeated. Revelation 20 gives the resurrection of "the rest of the dead". With which body do they come?

As to us having a body LIKE our Lord Jesus in resurrection, you did not reply to the verses I posted. Well and good. There is nothing to be said. Here is one of them again;

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself

Again, we look to heaven for His COMING and then only are our bodies fashioned like His.

But Hebrews 2:14-18 goes further. Our Lord Jesus is said to have taken "flesh and blood" like us, and then, in defeating him who had the power of death, He is still "in ALL THINGS like His brethren"

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But verse 23 gives a massive time delay. Your theory of two bodies is also annulled here in these verses. The word "IT" refers, by the rules of grammar, to the SAME BODY.

You can say it and think it but it doesn't make IT truth.  WE WERE TOLD EXACTLY how much, a BARE GRAIN.  Doesn't fit with what you believe?  Better change your belief instead of trying to change WHAT IS WRITTEN. 




1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Just like the 'even so them' = the 'of them that slept and  'every man in his own order' are disregarded.   

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Where is it written that 'AFTERWARDS' means  'THE LAST DAY OF THIS earth AGE ONLY'?     Or is THAT MEANING being ADDED,  because that is what it is wanted, thought or believed?


The answer is easy to see,  or better yet, not see.

A BARE GRAIN.  What does that TELL YOU?  

a body natural ALSO spiritual

5 couples came to the potluck wearing white but no one brought food.  So my husband and I left to buy some food, even so them.  

 'even so them' what?  It's always the same.  

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

... please explain why the heavenly body "swallows mortality"? In your theory the earthly body rots and perishes forever while you take a new spiritual body. This means that mortality is never defeated. Revelation 20 gives the resurrection of "the rest of the dead". With which body do they come?

I am not going to try to deal with new issues until we can get the present ones solved.  

Edited May 23, 2022 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

So do you believe that a new spiritual body appears out of nothing? I am trying to understand your position. 

No, but I do think it is 'seen' in the presently 'unseen' world. We are told GOD uses  A BARE GRAIN of this body.  Good enough for me.  If I needed more info I am sure God would give it.  Till then I go with what I have been given and take it as all I need to know right now.  I don't try to assign it anymore meaning than that.  I don't think like GOD nor do I know how HE works,  so it would be pointless at this point.  I am good with that.  

Speaking of Job, could you tell me WHAT the sons of God were made of when they were WATCHING THE EARTH BEING CREATED?  It certainly wasn't 'earthy' since they existed first.

As for anything in Job before chapter 38, I don't know what to think or trust,  so I will not comment.  When HE starts out with these words, I am VERY cautious
 

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors....

[Cntrysner]

11 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The order: The dead in Christ ( "them that slept" v.20) "shall rise first, and we which are alive and remain" ( they that are Christ's at His coming). 

Jesus is the " first" or beginning sacrifice for all of His chosen. 

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order

In his own order is revealed with:

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 
2Co 5:7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 
2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 

[Cntrysner]

11 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

So do you believe that a new spiritual body appears out of nothing? I am trying to understand your position. 

My belief:

When one believes in the new testament of Christ he becomes a new creature created in Christ Jesus. Then the Holy Spirit who is Christ the Seed indwells the believer and circumcision of the flesh is preformed. At death of the body of flesh which bindes us to the earth and was the fertile ground that received the seed is exited we then will be left clothed with the Spirit that circumcised us from the body of flesh and will no longer be bound to the earth.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Cntrysner

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am not going to try to deal with new issues until we can get the present ones solved.  

I understand.

Go well.