Those Who Are Convinced Christ Will Return In Their Lifetime

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The future literal two witnesses will bring literal plagues upon this literal earth, just as Moses/Aaron did against Pharaoh of Egypt

You resort to removing the future literal events, through symbolic allegory "Wrong"

Revelation 11:4KJV

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

You know how a discussion works don't you?

I answer your questions, you answer mine. But it just seems that you do not want to answer my questions.

Why are the 2 witnesses called the two olive trees in Rev 11;4?

Maybe they are literal olive trees? Or is it symbolism?

If they are not literal olive trees, then what does calling them the 2 olive trees mean?

--

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

I proved to you that the span of the Dan. 2 iron nation continues from 63 BC until the toes end.

So who has been the iron nation for all that time? From 63 BC onward? 

Who was the iron nation in 63 BC?

Who was the iron nation 500 years ag0?

Who is the iron nation right now?

Who is the iron nation in our future???

There is ONLY ONE ANSWER, Rome.

This is one reason that the pre-trib time line will never work. Because the beast nation, Rome, is continual and lasts centuries until Jerusalem is restored.

The idea that a future Antichrist will be revealed is misguided due to the fact that the iron nation and Caesar were revealed at the 70 AD ish destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. He has already been ruling over the people of Israel since 63 BC.

He rules over the children of Israel for 3 1/2 times, but it is the time after the great scattering of 70 AD ish until Jerusalem is restored in 1967.

The 3 1/2 times is centuries and not years. The months and 1260 days are symbolic to show that it is the 2nd 3 1/2 times, and not the first 3 1/2 times, that it is talking about.

----

By saying that the Antichrist has not been revealed yet,

You are actually helping him,

By hiding the fact that he has been here all those 2000 years, the time of the iron.

Yes, siding with the Antichrist, hiding who he is from the world and the children of the kingdom of Israel/(church).

I don't think that a Christian would do something to help Caesar, the Antichrist, the Bishop of Rome, on purpose. 

But I would caution all pre-tribs to reexamine their theory in light of what I have just told you.

-----

Do you believe that the Vatican is truly Christian? Do you believe that the Bishop of Rome is the Holy Father? Do you believe that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church?

When Ash Wednesday comes around, go down to the ROMAN Catholic Church,

Pledge your allegiance to the Bishop of Rome,

Get on your knees for the blessings of the Vatican,

Get the ashes placed on your forehead,

Then go your own church service and say, "Hey everybody, look at this neat mark I got on my forehead, you should go get one too." 

--

You didn't prove a thing, you shared your opinion

It's my opinion your eschatology is wrong

Jesus Is The Lord

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Rev 11:2, " ...: and the holy city shall they tread underfoot forty and two months".

The times of the gentiles, also Lk 21:20-24, 24, lasted from 70 AD until 1967, far more than 42 months. This shows that the time is centuries and the 42 is symbolic, history proves it.

I Strongly Disagree, the future 42 month tribulation will start when armies surround Jerusalem and the antichrist is revealed

[abcdef]

52 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

You didn't prove a thing, you shared your opinion

Yes, but you didn't share your opinion about the scriptures that we are discussing.

And you have not answered the questions that I have asked you.

Are the questions so hard that no one can answer? Are they impossible questions to answer?

No they are not.

The reason it is hard for some to answer is, that the answers contradict what they have come to believe as the truth or accepted as the truth, for so long.

My brother, there is truth.

But finding it is not always like we imagined. Sometimes the truth is bitter. A bitter truth. Should we turn away from the truth because it is bitter? Some do.

Or should we face the truth even though it is knowingly bitter? Taking up our cross, for the sake of others? Facing death for Jesus?

The simple thing that I'm asking you to do is consider answering the questions, that may lead to some truth.

But you don't have to if you don't want to. They are really just questions to make you think.

 

52 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

It's my opinion your eschatology is wrong

Jesus Is The Lord

It's OK to disagree my brother.

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

I Strongly Disagree, the future 42 month tribulation will start when armies surround Jerusalem and the antichrist is revealed

I totally agree.

That is exactly what happened in 67-70 AD ish.

------

The great scattering of Israel into the gentile nation happened after 70 AD.

That is the great tribulation period. It lasted from 70 AD ish until 1967.

During that time the Roman beast nation attacked the children of Israel, as the iron in the Dan. 2 statue shows.

----

Now take the pre-trib position on this time period,

Guess what? Pre-trib has no position on this time period. (And neither does pure preterism.)

It is a blank, empty, a gap, unaccounted for, not there on the timeline of prophecy.

Why? We know that history continued after the 70 AD fall.

What happened to the continual iron in the timeline? It just disappeared from the continual timeline?

Think about it. Where did it go?

------

It disappeared because if the iron in the statue of Dan. 2 is continual until Jerusalem is restored, then the only one who can be the Antichrist is Caesar and the Bishop of Rome. A continual timeline.

In this case, pre-trib is saying the opposite of what the Dan. 2 statue shows.

The statue shows continual iron. Pre-trib says there is a gap, a direct contradiction.

[Charlie744]

14 hours ago, abcdef said:

The 2 witnesses are the people of Israel.

They began arriving to Israel in mass after 1948 to restore Jerusalem.

They had been scattered among the gentile nations for 1900 years, since 70 AD ish.

The times of the gentiles (ToG's) is centuries and not 3 1/2 years.

 

The time that iron (Dan. 2) Roman beast nation rules over the people of Israel begins in 63 BC with the Roman Empire and lasts until Jerusalem is restored, 1967.

The little horn appears after the Roman Empire falls, although, he is the 8th head who is one of the seven.

 

Let me explain again, if you have not read the previous few posts to 7t7.

The 7 times, 3 1/2 times, 42 months, 1260 days, are all symbolic and not literal in this case, centuries not a few years.

Some are so fixed and sure that they are literal, that they cannot free their mind to consider a different timeline.

The proof that they are symbolic and not literal can be shown by understanding that the time spans shown in the prophecies are centuries and not just a few years.

But most have closed their mind to any alternative theories.

"Our denomination has believed this for a thousand years and we are not going to change now", is what they say.

--

Just a question or two…

The Jews rejected their Messiah and in 70AD Titus destroyed everything and dispersed the Jews. They did not believe in Jesus yet you claim they are witnesses to the Christ. I certainly have seen none of this ‘witnessing’ from them over the past 2000 years.

Most importantly is the idea that ‘man’ could possibly serve as God’s witness! Now I do not mean we should not preach the Messiah and witness for Him on earth, rather in the truly ‘holy’ sense we are not capable of serving as His witness. 
 

God chose the Jews to be His priests on earth and teach the world the On true God. This was their mission. They failed. In Daniel God said He would never again give that responsibility over to man but only to the Holy Spirit. But if we follow your interpretation, God is going to have these same Jews serve as two witnesses - the same who just crucified Him! 
 

First, the most important attribute these two witnesses MUST have is complete truth within them. Not just the right message but THE TRUTH that can not be corrupted, altered, changed or defeated. Man can never fulfill any one those requirements. 
 

The two witnesses can not be of this world - subject to the sin and corruption of this world. His is never going to allow His witnesses to fail. Consequently, they MUST come directly from God, and the do!

Please consider and let me know your thoughts. 
 

I have found one of the most difficult if not almost impossible things for some people is to stop and allow them to consider different interpretations than the ones so embedded in their minds. 
 

Charlie
 

 

 

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, abcdef said:

I totally agree.

That is exactly what happened in 67-70 AD ish.

------

The great scattering of Israel into the gentile nation happened after 70 AD.

That is the great tribulation period. It lasted from 70 AD ish until 1967.

During that time the Roman beast nation attacked the children of Israel, as the iron in the Dan. 2 statue shows.

----

Now take the pre-trib position on this time period,

Guess what? Pre-trib has no position on this time period. (And neither does pure preterism.)

It is a blank, empty, a gap, unaccounted for, not there on the timeline of prophecy.

Why? We know that history continued after the 70 AD fall.

What happened to the continual iron in the timeline? It just disappeared from the continual timeline?

Think about it. Where did it go?

------

It disappeared because if the iron in the statue of Dan. 2 is continual until Jerusalem is restored, then the only one who can be the Antichrist is Caesar and the Bishop of Rome. A continual timeline.

In this case, pre-trib is saying the opposite of what the Dan. 2 statue shows.

The statue shows continual iron. Pre-trib says there is a gap, a direct contradiction.

Sorry for jumping into the middle of this but perhaps you might consider the following:

The 4th kingdom is indeed Rome but which Rome?

The legs of iron is clearly pagan Rome but there is a significant change to their empire. It becomes divided! The symbolic “Stone” (Messiah) strikes the feet and “divides” it. He literally cuts time itself into two.

After the Cross pagan Rome will begin to decline while the eventual successor (papal Rome) climbs to power. In Daniel 2 , it still will have the “power or strength of the iron” within it- but it will no longer be a pagan military type Rome. And, the little horn will rise right along and sit atop this new 4th beast. 
Charlie

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Just a question or two…

The Jews rejected their Messiah and in 70AD Titus destroyed everything and dispersed the Jews.

Yes

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

They did not believe in Jesus

The idea that Israel rejected the gospel kingdom is correct, overall, because of the religious powers of the time.

But there were many who did accept Jesus, thousands and thousands, and it was years until the gentiles were grafted in, say, 37 AD.

So all that time there were souls of the natural branches who accepted Jesus and entered into the new covenant kingdom.

Think of the thousands who saw the miracles of the fishes, the limbs and bodies made whole, the blind see, and the lame walk. Think of the people who cheered Jesus as He entered Jerusalem as king, thousands, tens of thousands.

3000 on the Day of Pentecost, 5000 on another day.

If we look at Israel in about 37 AD, before the gentiles, then we see that the kingdom of Israel is almost exclusively flesh Israel who are in the church.

This is a huge group of souls.

Even though we see Paul speaking about the broken branches after 37 AD, there was still a significant number of natural branches that accepted Jesus in the mix.

The natural branches in Jesus "fled" into the gentile nations to escape the Romans.

They are the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 and the faithful woman of Rev 12 who flees into the wilderness of the gentile nations, until Jerusalem is restored.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

yet you claim they are witnesses to the Christ.

Jn 5:39, It is the scriptures (OT) that witness of Jesus.

The scriptures (OT) came through Israel. Israel carries the scriptures with them (OT).

Since Israel carries, speaks, and knows the scriptures they are witness of Jesus and the promises to the Fathers.

They may not believe that the new covenant is in Jesus, the Lamb of God, but they are witnesses of Jesus whether they know it or not. They are witnesses that the promises made to the fathers are true, just by their continued existence and the restoration of Jerusalem at least. 

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

I certainly have seen none of this ‘witnessing’ from them over the past 2000 years.

The witnesses are the Law and the Prophets that Israel carries with them. 

If a child of Israel should reject the scriptures, then they would not be a witness.

--

You have not heard any witnessing about Jesus from the broken off natural branches.

But what about the natural believing branches who did accept the new gift of the Holy Spirit covenant?

Hasn't Jesus been proclaimed since the day of Pentecost? When faithful believing Israel fled into the wilderness of the gentile nations, don't you think that those tens of thousands of souls spread the gospel to the ends of the earth?

--

2 groups, the unbelieving natural branches and the believing natural branches.

The Bible is focused on these 2 groups and the wild branches are secondary to the narrative.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Most importantly is the idea that ‘man’ could possibly serve as God’s witness! Now I do not mean we should not preach the Messiah and witness for Him on earth, rather in the truly ‘holy’ sense we are not capable of serving as His witness.

The Bible is the witness, through the believing natural branches of the flesh children of Israel, and the gentile branches grafted into the kingdom of Israel/(church).

That makes us witnesses also.

The Rev is about the natural flesh branches, both believing and unbelieving, and not about the gentile branches primarily.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

 God chose the Jews to be His priests on earth and teach the world the On true God. This was their mission. They failed. In Daniel God said He would never again give that responsibility over to man but only to the Holy Spirit. But if we follow your interpretation, God is going to have these same Jews serve as two witnesses - the same who just crucified Him!

The souls who killed Jesus were not faithful to the scriptures, their king, or His subjects. They were not "faithful" witnesses. They were unbelieving branches.

The Holy Spirit now works in man through the gift of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant.

The Holy Spirit works through the gospel kingdom of Israel/(church) who are souls who preach and live the gospel.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

 First, the most important attribute these two witnesses MUST have is complete truth within them. Not just the right message but THE TRUTH that can not be corrupted, altered, changed or defeated. Man can never fulfill any one those requirements. 

Only the Bible can fulfill all the things that you require.

When we preach the gospel we share in the glory of those scriptures.

Men cannot fulfill those requirements, this is true.

The scriptures that we speak do. We become witnesses, not for who we are or what we have done, but because we have the gift of the Holy Spirit in us.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

The two witnesses can not be of this world

You are right. They are not of this world, the Word of God scriptures are not of this world, they are from God's Spirit.

The Zech 4:14 vision shows them standing before the Lord.

They are the Law and the Prophets that witness of Jesus through Israel. 

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

 

- subject to the sin and corruption of this world. His is never going to allow His witnesses to fail. Consequently, they MUST come directly from God, and the do!

The scriptures come from God, through Israel.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Please consider and let me know your thoughts. 
 

I have found one of the most difficult if not almost impossible things for some people is to stop and allow them to consider different interpretations than the ones so embedded in their minds. 
 

Charlie

Let us reason together.

--

Edited June 3, 2022 by abcdef

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Yes

 

The idea that Israel rejected the gospel kingdom is correct, overall, because of the religious powers of the time.

But there were many who did accept Jesus, thousands and thousands, and it was years until the gentiles were grafted in, say, 37 AD.

So all that time there were souls of the natural branches who accepted Jesus and entered into the new covenant kingdom.

Think of the thousands who saw the miracles of the fishes, the limbs and bodies made whole, the blind see, and the lame walk. Think of the people who cheered Jesus as He entered Jerusalem as king, thousands, tens of thousands.

3000 on the Day of Pentecost, 5000 on another day.

If we look at Israel in about 37 AD, before the gentiles, then we see that the kingdom of Israel is almost exclusively flesh Israel who are in the church.

This is a huge group of souls.

Even though we see Paul speaking about the broken branches after 37 AD, there was still a significant number of natural branches that accepted Jesus in the mix.

The natural branches in Jesus "fled" into the gentile nations to escape the Romans.

They are the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 and the faithful woman of Rev 12 who flees into the wilderness of the gentile nations, until Jerusalem is restored.

 

Jn 5:39, It is the scriptures (OT) that witness of Jesus.

The scriptures (OT) came through Israel. Israel carries the scriptures with them (OT).

Since Israel carries, speaks, and knows the scriptures they are witness of Jesus and the promises to the Fathers.

They may not believe that the new covenant is in Jesus, the Lamb of God, but they are witnesses of Jesus whether they know it or not. They are witnesses that the promises made to the fathers are true, just by their continued existence and the restoration of Jerusalem at least. 

 

The witnesses are the Law and the Prophets that Israel carries with them. 

If a child of Israel should reject the scriptures, then they would not be a witness.

--

You have not heard any witnessing about Jesus from the broken off natural branches.

But what about the natural believing branches who did accept the new gift of the Holy Spirit covenant?

Hasn't Jesus been proclaimed since the day of Pentecost? When faithful believing Israel fled into the wilderness of the gentile nations, don't you think that those tens of thousands of souls spread the gospel to the ends of the earth?

--

2 groups, the unbelieving natural branches and the believing natural branches.

The Bible is focused on these 2 groups and the wild branches are secondary to the narrative.

 

The Bible is the witness, through the believing natural branches of the flesh children of Israel, and the gentile branches grafted into the kingdom of Israel/(church).

That makes us witnesses also.

The Rev is about the natural flesh branches, both believing and unbelieving, and not about the gentile branches primarily.

 

The souls who killed Jesus were not faithful to the scriptures, their king, or His subjects. They were not "faithful" witnesses. They were unbelieving branches.

The Holy Spirit now works in man through the gift of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant.

The Holy Spirit works through the gospel kingdom of Israel/(church) who are souls who preach and live the gospel.

 

Only the Bible can fulfill all the things that you require.

When we preach the gospel we share in the glory of those scriptures.

Men cannot fulfill those requirements, this is true.

The scriptures that we speak do. We become witnesses, not for who we are or what we have done, but because we have the gift of the Holy Spirit in us.

 

You are right. They are not of this world, the Word of God scriptures are not of this world, they are from God's Spirit.

The Zech 4:14 vision shows them standing before the Lord.

They are the Law and the Prophets that witness of Jesus through Israel. 

 

The scriptures come from God, through Israel.

 

Let us reason together.

--

Thanks fir your response. I “think” I understand what you are saying but it seems to be conflated with the necessity of including “man” in the equation. It should not. The Cross and the history of the Jews show us that everything man touches he corrupts and defiles- everything. 
 
Man can not be any part of the solution because man and his penchant for disobedience and idolatry, etc., ARE the problem. 
 

No amount of time will change that. Which is why God would never again trust His plan of salvation over to man - even in the smallest manner! 
 

No, the Jews nor the Gentiles who believe in Jesus could possibly be the “witnesses”. 
 

They are either believers and followers of God or they are not. No man can ride one inch above another in His Kingdom. 
 

The two witnesses must be not if this world because they could not be corrupted. They can not be made common. They can not be molded or altered by man. 
 

They can not be of this world and are not… they are symbolic yet more real than the world itself. 
 

The two witnesses are the Scriptures (Tanakh), and the Testimony of Jesus.   
 

Jesus, our Lord and Savor, and His Word. 

Charlie

 

 

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

I totally agree.

That is exactly what happened in 67-70 AD ish.

------

The great scattering of Israel into the gentile nation happened after 70 AD.

That is the great tribulation period. It lasted from 70 AD ish until 1967.

During that time the Roman beast nation attacked the children of Israel, as the iron in the Dan. 2 statue shows.

----

Now take the pre-trib position on this time period,

Guess what? Pre-trib has no position on this time period. (And neither does pure preterism.)

It is a blank, empty, a gap, unaccounted for, not there on the timeline of prophecy.

Why? We know that history continued after the 70 AD fall.

What happened to the continual iron in the timeline? It just disappeared from the continual timeline?

Think about it. Where did it go?

------

It disappeared because if the iron in the statue of Dan. 2 is continual until Jerusalem is restored, then the only one who can be the Antichrist is Caesar and the Bishop of Rome. A continual timeline.

In this case, pre-trib is saying the opposite of what the Dan. 2 statue shows.

The statue shows continual iron. Pre-trib says there is a gap, a direct contradiction.

The Two Witnesses Are Future Literal Unfulfilled, 70AD nor 48-67AD played no part, "Future" 

The two witnesses will be future literal, physical, prophets returned, they will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, that will have individual bodies that die, that will lay in a physical street in Jerusalem, that will be raised from the dead, and ascend to heaven before a literal world watching, just as Revelation Chapter 11 teaches

Edited June 3, 2022 by truth7t7