Catholicism vs Christianity

[Your closest friendnt]

I have met people low down who came from ministers of the Gospel families... 

And some said: look what I am doing, there is not hope for me, maybe I am one of those who are predestined to perished...

I said look in your faith in your heart, you were born in a family that believe in Jesus Christ no mater what denomination was. And you learn to believe in what your parents believe...

I asked have you denied and renounce what you had believe....have you become atheist have you embrace some other non Christian faith like Hinduism or Islamist, he started laughing and he said NO...

I said you are still have the faith in Jesus Christ in your heart...you are not lost because you believe...your works, and your lifestyle may condemn you but your faith in Jesus Justify you before God...

He talked about repentance, in your case as you are sick just give your repentance to him...look in your faith in him, and keep believing no matter what. 

After all repentance is asked from those who believe in Jesus Christ so they can repent in his name. 

You believe and are Justified before repentance of nad works. In your case you had believed since you were very small....and grew up without doing what you are doing now...works do not saved and for that matter do not contemn or cannot condemn anyone to Hell, denial, refusing to believe in Jesus Christ and dying in denial is the only thing that contemn anyone to Hell. Because when someone has denied Jesus Christ he will come to understand that he cannot be in Heaven because Heaven is the Inheritance of Jesus Christ, and for anyone else who believes that he died on the Cross for the forgivenes of his sins.

If you are lost in this world, keep your faith in Jesus Christ so you are not lost for eternity...remember you are in your own righteousness no matter how good it is, but as believer in Jesus Christ you are also in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ upon believing that he died for the forgiveness of your sins...

Jesus Christ is righteous not only for himself but also for any one who has believes in him for the forgivenes of his sins. ...have your peace because you are not going to Hell because you so think...

Particularly this man knew something from the bible, and when I looked at him his faced had change like the face of an Angel.

The peace of the Lord was upon him...he no longer tormented with the thought that he will go to Hell.

I never show that man again in that part of the city, living and begging on the sidewalk...

Edited May 24, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Marathoner]

14 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I have met people low down who came from ministers of the Gospel families... 

And some said: look what I am doing, there is not hope for me, maybe I am one of those who are predestined to perished...

I said look in your faith in your heart, you were born in a family that believe in Jesus Christ no mater what denomination was. And you learn to believe in what your parents believe...

I asked have you denied and renounce what you had believe....have you become atheist have you embrace some other non Christian faith like Hinduism or Islamist, he started laughing and he said NO...

I said you are still have the faith in Jesus Christ in your heart...you are not lost because you believe...your works, and your lifestyle may condemn you but your faith in Jesus Justify you before God...

He talked about repentance, in your case as you are sick just give your repentance to him...look in your faith in him, and keep believing no matter what. 

After all repentance is asked from those who believe in Jesus Christ so they can repent in his name. 

You believe and are Justified before repentance in your case since you were very small....and grew up without doing what you are doing now...works do not saved and for that matter do not contemn or cannot condemn anyone to Hell, denial, refusing to believe in Jesus Christ and dying in denial is the only thing that contemn anyone to Hell. Because when someone has denied Jesus Christ he will come to understand that he cannot be in Heaven because Heaven is the Inheritance of Jesus Christ. 

If you are lost in this world, keep your faith in Jesus Christ so you are not lost for eternity...remember you are in your own righteousness no matter how good it is, but as believer in Jesus Christ you are also in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ upon believing that he died for the forgiveness of sins...

Jesus Christ is righteous not only for himself but also for him....have your peace because you are not going to Hell because you so thing...

Particularly this man knew something from the bible, and when I looked at him his faced had change like the face of an Angel.

The peace of the Lord was upon him...he no longer tormented with the thought that he will go to Hell.

I never show that man again in that part of the city, living and begging on the sidewalk...

My heart is glad for the mercy and love you poured upon one who is suffering. That's what it's all about, my friend.

That is the witness of Jesus Christ in you, who is faithful to continue that work He started in all of us to the glory of God the Father. That's why we labor in this world, for the sake of the sick and the dying. 

We were sick and dying ourselves, and Christ lifted us up; we were hungry so He fed us His flesh and blood; we were blind, so He opened our eyes to His marvelous light. He is the Light of the world.

When I wrote about the problem I have with some who don't show forth the love of Jesus Christ, which is that same love He gives to us all, there is a certain religious spirit which seizes the heart and blinds the eyes. For some, the love of God is all about correct doctrine. In their correctness, they are grievously wrong.

Matters of doctrine and studying the word are for the workman, not the sick or the suffering. The dying need food, drink, and the love which Christ pours upon us... not fiery condemnation and that way which seems right to a man. The religious spirit is that way.

The Lord rebuked Peter for his instruction, but He did not upbraid the Samaritan woman at the well. He offered her water so she would never thirst instead.

So many fall into the trap which the apostle James warned us about in the first chapter of his letter. 

If anyone thinks himself to be religious, yet does not bridle his own tongue but deceives his own heart, this person's religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:26-27 NASB)

The religious spirit is of this world. There are Muslims who are so zealous, they'll seize you and cut the tongue out of your mouth because you offended their false god. We notice how the apostle didn't add, " and be sure to knock on doors every Sunday!"

Ah, but if we're knocking on a door to bring a meal and some company to an elder who lives on their own, that's a completely different matter. If we offer water to the thirsty --- instead of scripture verses --- and food to the hungry instead of an invitation to come to altar call at a church building, then we have done something to address our neighbor in need.

Everyone understands love without expectation of reward.

That's pure, undefiled religion. Some of the "zeal shaming" I've spotted in this topic is typical of what I found in some evangelical circles I've visited with over the years. They have their breath mints, bibles, shirts and ties, and a nice, safe neighborhood to do their thing in. How nice.

Here's an idea: why don't you dispense with breath mints, fancy clothes, and that safe neighborhood and make a beeline to the closest penitentiary? You can visit with the incarcerated who have no one else in this world.

Or perhaps you can do the unthinkable and head to that part of town where no else dares to go? You can make yourself useful and throw away needles lying around on the streets. You can give from your own abundance to those who have nothing.

Now there's an idea for a Sunday afternoon! 

[Sower]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Sower, I like most of your posts, they have good points, but I have three questions regarding the quote above to Anne2:

1 Have you not noticed, that she is not specifically arguing for the RCC, but is in an exploration mode which is open to discussion of not-RCC expressions of faith - including non_RCC forms of Catholicism, Anglicanism, and Protestantism?

2 Since the thread is doing that, why would it be moved to the "Catholic Section"?

3 Finally, why would anyone inform her that it needs to be moved? (It is not her thread)

Still, moving the thread is an interesting thought, maybe there needs to be a "Comparative Religions" section.

The OP is Catholicism vs Christianity(?)  (That in itself set the stage)

(1) Not always directly, but inferred. Most of her points, (sola scripture not- RCC belief big time:), not against/not convinced- praying to the dead (strictly forbidden- RCC belief), priests go between between God the Father and His children, (one mediator Christ Jesus), non belief in priesthood of believers (RCC belief),    Anne2;  "the authority of the priesthood in its deliberative AUTHORITY TO ESTABLISH A SENTENCE  OF JUDGEMENT IN A DISPUTE"

Most answers to members, and to myself, from old testament.

On 5/20/2022 at 1:27 PM, appy said:

I don't disagree, that Roman Catholics are humans who are in desperate need of hearing the gospel message as preached by the apostles in Scripture

Anne2   "I disagree they need to hear the gospel. We weaken ourselves with this divisiveness"

On 5/20/2022 at 3:01 PM, B-B said:

There can only be true unity if there is agreement with the Fundamentals of the Faith....do you believe that the RCC beliefs/doctrines are in line with the Fundamentals?

And where did those essentials come from? The very Church we have been speaking of.....

(2) Omegaman, it is not only obvious to me but other members as well,  the constant defense of the RCC, and the absence of an answered question about specific doctrinal core beliefs held/denied, old testament and apostolic text for proof reference, etc. I specifically said in one of my post that I was not attacking Anne2, just the beliefs she has been defending, primarily the RCC or other catholic church beliefs. We agreed to stop. I apologized if she thought I had done anything un-Christ like, which I do not believe I did. In the past here on this forum, I remember, especially being an ex catholic, that when someone came on and began a constant defense of the RCC, it was moved due to all the arguments started. Eventually the posters left.

(3) I don't believe I ever said it was her thread, and I could not find where I might have. It didn't matter who started it when it deteriorates to a back and forth defense  of the RCC. I feel sure you can remember this happening before. The thread usually would be locked down or moved to the catholic forum. Fortunately this one has 'most' everybody using their manners.

You said;   "Still, moving the thread is an interesting thought, maybe there needs to be a "Comparative Religions" section"

That would be your call. There is very little/no activity in the catholic section.

I would have probably enjoyed 'discussing' our differences here about the many catholic beliefs. Anne2 would not answer my and others questions concerning dogma, which raised a red flag. It would have been great to put heads together and try to find some scriptural proof to agree on.

 

 

[Anne2]

9 hours ago, Sower said:

The OP is Catholicism vs Christianity(?)  (That in itself set the stage)

I wished to avoid further dialogue. But it seems I need to respond to your version of "what I am doing or not doing".

I have been addressing Catholicism. I chose to speak on All "Catholicism"

9 hours ago, Sower said:

the absence of an answered question about specific doctrinal core beliefs held/denied, old testament and apostolic text for proof reference, etc.

First, you would not acknowledge I was not defending the RCC, not even the Greek Orthodox per se. And you are still not. I can't help that.

Second, when you brought tradition into it, vs sola scriptura, Your understanding of tradition was different than what is meant by all Catholics.  possible exception of the pope. 

 

9 hours ago, Sower said:

(1) Not always directly, but inferred. Most of her points, (sola scripture not- RCC belief big time:),

And this is based upon your application of tradition.  Which at this point I no longer wished further dialogue. As any comments to be made further would have been highly offensive to you, but unavoidable. But.. this post forces it. I wish you no ill, nor have any desire to say this in a mean spirited way. Tradition is something handed down, teaching. Which you appear to be ignorant of. Therefore in that ignorance, don't realize your own hypocrisy in having tradition yourself. Sola scriptura for you = sola my interpretation of scriptura alone is scripture. The Catholic Church historically believed the in Equality of other bishops. And apart from ALL of them, was to engage in establishing doctrine "privately".  The holy spirit was among them equally in the council. But it is not seen that way by protestants. So yes The Catholic Church believes that tradition Teachings handed down by those before them were authoritative as sola scriptura. Less than that was individual bishops going on private interpretation.

I do not wish to continue with an individual That can't acknowledge what others think or say. What's the use?

Luther dialogued with the Greek Patriarch at one point. Highly praised the Greek Church describing their sharing of doctrine and belief. He used it to validate arguments of the pope. Things eventually broke down because Luther only continued to attempt to defend his doctrines, and the patriarch finally ended dialogue because of it. It became fruitless in his eyes. You need to respect tradition of acknowledging what scripture says is not by private interpretaion. The holy spirit didn't just talk to Luther and nobody else kind of thing. It isnt theology Luther woul

Edited May 24, 2022 by Anne2

[Starise]

I  see Catholicism as an enemy to true Christianity and as such, it needs to be brought to light.

Yes there are divisions in the Catholic church, Greek Orthodox and so forth. I don't see them varying a lot in their core beliefs. This isn't to say there aren't believers in the Catholic church either, yet that isn't the jist of the discussion which was Catholic .vs Christian. 

The discussion is about CATHOLICISM .vs CHRISTIAN and when we take it down to the nitty gritty CATHOLICISM is in direct rebellion to the Scriptures in many areas.

Some here want to bring people into this. Almost as if we are picking on individuals. No. We are looking at what Catholics teach. To look at a teaching compared to scripture should be no disservice to anyone.

While I agree with @Marathoner that God reaches out to us not using religion, religion is what we are evaluating and so we should feel no guilt in evaluating it.

And I'll admit I am confused with some of the comments. Some here say they are not Catholic, yet are staunchly defending them as if they are Catholic  and even have plans to attend a Catholic church.

I don't think it's fair to accuse persons who have been Catholics for 30 years or more of ignorance of the Catholic faith or belief systems. 

Basically I see contradictions all over the place here. How can you be not for something but not against it?

Edited May 24, 2022 by Starise

[Anne2]

14 minutes ago, Starise said:

I  see Catholicism as an enemy to true Christianity and as such, it needs to be brought to light.

I know, you never responded about right and wrong traditions.

It occurred to me what protestants rejected was historical ecclesiology. The nature of the Church. Luther nor other reformers rejected the Greek teachings EXCEPT their notion of the what the Church is. You seem to accept tradition, but Have not given a reason which and why it's authoritative. But at least here while we may strongly disagree, we are at least coming from the same context. I suspect The difference between us would be The shadow and pattern in scripture (The temple/ PRIESTLY  things vs Synagogue and RABBINATE things? 

Why tradition here  1 Cor is translated ordinance I don't know.

1Co 11:2  Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances <3862>, as I delivered them to you.

There is the options below. Don't know but highly suspect the traditions for you are akin to 2b) below? 

from 3860; n f; TDNT-2:172,166; {See TDNT 191}

AV-tradition 12, ordinance 1; 13

1) giving up, giving over
1a) the act of giving up
1b) the surrender of cities
2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
2a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
2b) of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence 

2Th 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions <3862> which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th 3:6  Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition <3862> which he received of us.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

27 minutes ago, Starise said:

While I agree with @Marathoner that God reaches out to us not using religion, religion is what we are evaluating and so we should feel no guilt in evaluating it.

Who says I don't agree with this? I can ackowledge God reaches out to us. It is a matter of by what authority do you claim God did not reach out to others equally? As a Church we are one body, a whole. What God calls individuals to be in that body as a member does not necessarily exclude those whom God has called to a diverse ministry within the body. 

[Starise]

8 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I know, you never responded about right and wrong traditions.

It occurred to me what protestants rejected was historical ecclesiology. The nature of the Church. Luther nor other reformers rejected the Greek teachings EXCEPT their notion of the what the Church is. You seem to accept tradition, but Have not given a reason which and why it's authoritative. But at least here while we may strongly disagree, we are at least coming from the same context. I suspect The difference between us would be The shadow and pattern in scripture (The temple/ PRIESTLY  things vs Synagogue and RABBINATE things? 

 

Well I'm getting a queasy feeling responding because I am picking up on a 'them' and 'us' approach.

I wish it could be an 'us' approach. What do WE Christians believe and why. In this case I am forced to look at something that wants to be Christian but has many issues and I'm addressing a person who seems to be fascinated with it.

You seem to like historical insight which I also find interesting. I'm also very concerned with where things are in the here and now. If anything I see the Catholic church (not necessarily the RCC) getting WORSE and more apostate over time right along with many Protestant churches. Since we are addressing the Catholic church up against Christianity, then when we look at the differences .vs the similarities it's crazy how different it is.

Authoritative tradition? Whose authority are we talking about? Because if you talk to a Catholic this is THEIR tradition.If you talk to a practicing Jews this is THEIR tradition. I don't look at something as represented by something else. I look at the pure deal. For me the pure deal is the bible which shows how many of the ancient practices were simply replaced by the blood of Christ. I see the Lord has simplified it for us. Narrowed it down. Truly our savior is not trying to add more burdens to us. He is taking them away through Jesus.Simplification. No longer do we need all of these rites and priests. The way to the cross is based on acknowledgement and obedience, is not difficult.

I know for a fact some prefer a feeling of awe in a church service made possible by long robes, tall hats, incense, chants in Latin done in large buildings that look like works of art. Something about all of that seems more spiritual. Closer to God Himself. To me this is all inert icing on a bland cake.

I look for authenticity, even if it wears blue jeans. In fact I prefer that over the other because there's nothing to hide behind. It's all about Jesus. A synagogue is anywhere Jesus is and two or three are gathered together. Jewish tradition and bible tradition are two different things. When God saved me he didn't point me to a rabbi.

 

[Anne2]

6 minutes ago, Starise said:

Well I'm getting a queasy feeling responding because I am picking up on a 'them' and 'us' approach.

You are just now noticing that? It began that way.

 

7 minutes ago, Starise said:

I wish it could be an 'us' approach. What do WE Christians believe and why. In this case I am forced to look at something that wants to be Christian but has many issues and I'm addressing a person who seems to be fascinated with it.

And since the thread was a them vs us to begin with I have attempted to approach the subject from an US approach. And the dialogue becomes fruitless with these kinds of charges against me. All I have wanted was to define the issues, and deal with what IS. Not what people make it out to be. That's all. It was you that chose to bring traditions theirs vs ours, right and wrong ones. You did that not me. I asked whi9ch you speaking of ans didn't really receive a response. I left it alone so as to not offend in what I expected to be your response. I didn't continue to ask, and badger you over it. I don't enjoy having animosity over these things, which my further pushing you on a subject YOU BROUGHT UP for an us vs them. I am sorry the subject has a distaste for you and some others. I do not enjoy that nor is it my desire.

[Starise]

I dislike when I do my best to explain and someone tells me I didn't explain

Oh well  I tried my best. No animosity here from me.

Can you please tell me EXACTLY where you are in terms of belief right now? 

What do you believe to be true? For those you disagree with why? 

I guess I am having some difficulty pinning down what the source of the issues might be? 

I won't try to figure you out. I'll see if you will tell me what's going on?

You have already said you take issue with what we've said, but I'm not sure what it is we said that was offensive?

I didn't want an us .vs them. That was my point. I don't enjoy conflict believe it or not.