Catholicism vs Christianity

[Starise]

I  see Catholicism as an enemy to true Christianity and as such, it needs to be brought to light.

Yes there are divisions in the Catholic church, Greek Orthodox and so forth. I don't see them varying a lot in their core beliefs. This isn't to say there aren't believers in the Catholic church either, yet that isn't the jist of the discussion which was Catholic .vs Christian. 

The discussion is about CATHOLICISM .vs CHRISTIAN and when we take it down to the nitty gritty CATHOLICISM is in direct rebellion to the Scriptures in many areas.

Some here want to bring people into this. Almost as if we are picking on individuals. No. We are looking at what Catholics teach. To look at a teaching compared to scripture should be no disservice to anyone.

While I agree with @Marathoner that God reaches out to us not using religion, religion is what we are evaluating and so we should feel no guilt in evaluating it.

And I'll admit I am confused with some of the comments. Some here say they are not Catholic, yet are staunchly defending them as if they are Catholic  and even have plans to attend a Catholic church.

I don't think it's fair to accuse persons who have been Catholics for 30 years or more of ignorance of the Catholic faith or belief systems. 

Basically I see contradictions all over the place here. How can you be not for something but not against it?

Edited May 24, 2022 by Starise

[Anne2]

14 minutes ago, Starise said:

I  see Catholicism as an enemy to true Christianity and as such, it needs to be brought to light.

I know, you never responded about right and wrong traditions.

It occurred to me what protestants rejected was historical ecclesiology. The nature of the Church. Luther nor other reformers rejected the Greek teachings EXCEPT their notion of the what the Church is. You seem to accept tradition, but Have not given a reason which and why it's authoritative. But at least here while we may strongly disagree, we are at least coming from the same context. I suspect The difference between us would be The shadow and pattern in scripture (The temple/ PRIESTLY  things vs Synagogue and RABBINATE things? 

Why tradition here  1 Cor is translated ordinance I don't know.

1Co 11:2  Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances <3862>, as I delivered them to you.

There is the options below. Don't know but highly suspect the traditions for you are akin to 2b) below? 

from 3860; n f; TDNT-2:172,166; {See TDNT 191}

AV-tradition 12, ordinance 1; 13

1) giving up, giving over
1a) the act of giving up
1b) the surrender of cities
2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
2a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
2b) of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence 

2Th 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions <3862> which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th 3:6  Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition <3862> which he received of us.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

27 minutes ago, Starise said:

While I agree with @Marathoner that God reaches out to us not using religion, religion is what we are evaluating and so we should feel no guilt in evaluating it.

Who says I don't agree with this? I can ackowledge God reaches out to us. It is a matter of by what authority do you claim God did not reach out to others equally? As a Church we are one body, a whole. What God calls individuals to be in that body as a member does not necessarily exclude those whom God has called to a diverse ministry within the body. 

[Starise]

8 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I know, you never responded about right and wrong traditions.

It occurred to me what protestants rejected was historical ecclesiology. The nature of the Church. Luther nor other reformers rejected the Greek teachings EXCEPT their notion of the what the Church is. You seem to accept tradition, but Have not given a reason which and why it's authoritative. But at least here while we may strongly disagree, we are at least coming from the same context. I suspect The difference between us would be The shadow and pattern in scripture (The temple/ PRIESTLY  things vs Synagogue and RABBINATE things? 

 

Well I'm getting a queasy feeling responding because I am picking up on a 'them' and 'us' approach.

I wish it could be an 'us' approach. What do WE Christians believe and why. In this case I am forced to look at something that wants to be Christian but has many issues and I'm addressing a person who seems to be fascinated with it.

You seem to like historical insight which I also find interesting. I'm also very concerned with where things are in the here and now. If anything I see the Catholic church (not necessarily the RCC) getting WORSE and more apostate over time right along with many Protestant churches. Since we are addressing the Catholic church up against Christianity, then when we look at the differences .vs the similarities it's crazy how different it is.

Authoritative tradition? Whose authority are we talking about? Because if you talk to a Catholic this is THEIR tradition.If you talk to a practicing Jews this is THEIR tradition. I don't look at something as represented by something else. I look at the pure deal. For me the pure deal is the bible which shows how many of the ancient practices were simply replaced by the blood of Christ. I see the Lord has simplified it for us. Narrowed it down. Truly our savior is not trying to add more burdens to us. He is taking them away through Jesus.Simplification. No longer do we need all of these rites and priests. The way to the cross is based on acknowledgement and obedience, is not difficult.

I know for a fact some prefer a feeling of awe in a church service made possible by long robes, tall hats, incense, chants in Latin done in large buildings that look like works of art. Something about all of that seems more spiritual. Closer to God Himself. To me this is all inert icing on a bland cake.

I look for authenticity, even if it wears blue jeans. In fact I prefer that over the other because there's nothing to hide behind. It's all about Jesus. A synagogue is anywhere Jesus is and two or three are gathered together. Jewish tradition and bible tradition are two different things. When God saved me he didn't point me to a rabbi.

 

[Anne2]

6 minutes ago, Starise said:

Well I'm getting a queasy feeling responding because I am picking up on a 'them' and 'us' approach.

You are just now noticing that? It began that way.

 

7 minutes ago, Starise said:

I wish it could be an 'us' approach. What do WE Christians believe and why. In this case I am forced to look at something that wants to be Christian but has many issues and I'm addressing a person who seems to be fascinated with it.

And since the thread was a them vs us to begin with I have attempted to approach the subject from an US approach. And the dialogue becomes fruitless with these kinds of charges against me. All I have wanted was to define the issues, and deal with what IS. Not what people make it out to be. That's all. It was you that chose to bring traditions theirs vs ours, right and wrong ones. You did that not me. I asked whi9ch you speaking of ans didn't really receive a response. I left it alone so as to not offend in what I expected to be your response. I didn't continue to ask, and badger you over it. I don't enjoy having animosity over these things, which my further pushing you on a subject YOU BROUGHT UP for an us vs them. I am sorry the subject has a distaste for you and some others. I do not enjoy that nor is it my desire.

[Starise]

I dislike when I do my best to explain and someone tells me I didn't explain

Oh well  I tried my best. No animosity here from me.

Can you please tell me EXACTLY where you are in terms of belief right now? 

What do you believe to be true? For those you disagree with why? 

I guess I am having some difficulty pinning down what the source of the issues might be? 

I won't try to figure you out. I'll see if you will tell me what's going on?

You have already said you take issue with what we've said, but I'm not sure what it is we said that was offensive?

I didn't want an us .vs them. That was my point. I don't enjoy conflict believe it or not.

 

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

I  see Catholicism as an enemy to true Christianity and as such, it needs to be brought to light.

Yes there are divisions in the Catholic church, Greek Orthodox and so forth. I don't see them varying a lot in their core beliefs. This isn't to say there aren't believers in the Catholic church either, yet that isn't the jist of the discussion which was Catholic .vs Christian. 

The discussion is about CATHOLICISM .vs CHRISTIAN and when we take it down to the nitty gritty CATHOLICISM is in direct rebellion to the Scriptures in many areas.

Some here want to bring people into this. Almost as if we are picking on individuals. No. We are looking at what Catholics teach. To look at a teaching compared to scripture should be no disservice to anyone.

While I agree with @Marathoner that God reaches out to us not using religion, religion is what we are evaluating and so we should feel no guilt in evaluating it.

And I'll admit I am confused with some of the comments. Some here say they are not Catholic, yet are staunchly defending them as if they are Catholic  and even have plans to attend a Catholic church.

I don't think it's fair to accuse persons who have been Catholics for 30 years or more of ignorance of the Catholic faith or belief systems. 

Basically I see contradictions all over the place here. How can you be not for something but not against it?

I hear you.  And now here's me getting some things of my chest:

CatholicISM is not of God and leads many souls astray.  If that offends anyone here, they don't have to participate in this thread if they don't want to.  We are certainly free to discuss this or any subject as that is what forums are for.  Instead of pointing out the errors and dangers of the Catholic belief system, for the benefit of those reading or participating, this thread has become about chastising and accusing those who are trying to point them out.

Jesus said to think not that He came to bring peace on the earth but a sword.

Elsewhere scripture says to turn away from those who have a form of Godliness but deny the power. 

Also says those who have not the Spirit of God are none of His. 

Which brings us to where the inspired word of God says to be not unequally yoked with unbelievers...but to come out from among them to be received by Him.

One would think that efforts to return to or remain according to the plumbline of God's word in our faith and walk ought to be helped, not opposed.  It's murky and puzzling as to where some folks stand.  We're either on the side of the truth or we're not.  GOD is not the author of confusion, and I hope I'm mistaken, but to me it seems as though efforts are being made to throw sand in our faces on this subject.

 If anyone wants to start a thread pointing out the errors with Protestantism or Protestant Evangelism, they are free to do so, and I probably would contribute to it too, Lord permitting, but that isn't what this particular thread happens to be about.  And I want to say also that neither is this some sort of competition between Catholicism or Protestantism as some seemed to be trying to frame it. 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Heleadethme

[Sower]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Well I'm getting a queasy feeling responding because I am picking up on a 'them' and 'us' approach.

I wish it could be an 'us' approach. What do WE Christians believe and why. In this case I am forced to look at something that wants to be Christian but has many issues and I'm addressing a person who seems to be fascinated with it.

You seem to like historical insight which I also find interesting. I'm also very concerned with where things are in the here and now. If anything I see the Catholic church (not necessarily the RCC) getting WORSE and more apostate over time right along with many Protestant churches. Since we are addressing the Catholic church up against Christianity, then when we look at the differences .vs the similarities it's crazy how different it is.

Authoritative tradition? Whose authority are we talking about? Because if you talk to a Catholic this is THEIR tradition.If you talk to a practicing Jews this is THEIR tradition. I don't look at something as represented by something else. I look at the pure deal. For me the pure deal is the bible which shows how many of the ancient practices were simply replaced by the blood of Christ. I see the Lord has simplified it for us. Narrowed it down. Truly our savior is not trying to add more burdens to us. He is taking them away through Jesus.Simplification. No longer do we need all of these rites and priests. The way to the cross is based on acknowledgement and obedience, is not difficult.

I know for a fact some prefer a feeling of awe in a church service made possible by long robes, tall hats, incense, chants in Latin done in large buildings that look like works of art. Something about all of that seems more spiritual. Closer to God Himself. To me this is all inert icing on a bland cake.

I look for authenticity, even if it wears blue jeans. In fact I prefer that over the other because there's nothing to hide behind. It's all about Jesus. A synagogue is anywhere Jesus is and two or three are gathered together. Jewish tradition and bible tradition are two different things. When God saved me he didn't point me to a rabbi.

 

One of the the nicest posts I've read on this forum.
I believe you allowed the spirit some freedom here.
Thanks for the time and effort, Starise.
 

[Sower]

33 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

I hear you.  And now here's me getting some things of my chest:

CatholicISM is not of God and leads many souls astray.  If that offends anyone here, they don't have to participate in this thread if they don't want to.  We are certainly free to discuss this or any subject as that is what forums are for.  Instead of pointing out the errors and dangers of the Catholic belief system, for the benefit of those reading or participating, this thread has become about chastising and accusing those who are trying to point them out.

Jesus said to think not that He came to bring peace on the earth but a sword.

Elsewhere scripture says to turn away from those who have a form of Godliness but deny the power. 

Also says those who have not the Spirit of God are none of His. 

Which brings us to where the inspired word of God says to be not unequally yoked with unbelievers...but to come out from among them to be received by Him.

One would think that efforts to return to or remain according to the plumbline of God's word in our faith and walk ought to be helped, not opposed.  It's murky and puzzling as to where some folks stand.  We're either on the side of the truth or we're not.  GOD is not the author of confusion, and I hope I'm mistaken, but to me it seems as though efforts are being made to throw sand in our faces on this subject.

 If anyone wants to start a thread pointing out the errors with Protestantism or Protestant Evangelism, they are free to do so, and I probably would contribute to it too, Lord permitting, but that isn't what this particular thread happens to be about.  And I want to say also that neither is this some sort of competition between Catholicism or Protestantism as some seemed to be trying to frame it. 

 

I wish I had the wisdom/ability you have to put things in such succinct perspective.
You and Starise have posted the heart of what I think many here were trying.
We all love catholics. We disagree with what they are taught.
Thanks mucho, Heleadethme...
 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

I dislike when I do my best to explain and someone tells me I didn't explain

Oh well  I tried my best. No animosity here from me.

Can you please tell me EXACTLY where you are in terms of belief right now? 

What do you believe to be true? For those you disagree with why? 

I guess I am having some difficulty pinning down what the source of the issues might be? 

I won't try to figure you out. I'll see if you will tell me what's going on?

You have already said you take issue with what we've said, but I'm not sure what it is we said that was offensive?

I didn't want an us .vs them. That was my point. I don't enjoy conflict believe it or not.

 

I did not like the personal questions in more than one way. 

The members were invited to contribute to this thread.

The contributions not to be used as a fishing bate, and pass judgment on others, with the moto, if you don't joint us in speaking about   the Catholic church they way we do, then we will someone who was with us, it's not one of us because he was not one of us from the beginning. 

This is a discussion group, a discussion for discovery, to point out misinformation without prejudice to the participants.

 NO one is on trial, and we should not put anyone on the defensive mode, as this is not about the person and about them, and no one should be accused or been harassed in such way as to be put in a position to having to respond to interrogative questions, as this is not the reason or the subject of the thread...

Making comments about the person and asking personal question....think about that, without prejudice. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Your closest friendnt