Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Your reply here was in response to the second part of my study (page 124, post 4).  Just before what you show that John writes of in Revelation 5:11, he writes this...

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, John writes of his invite to take part in this ceremony, which was for the evident purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  If all of God's children go to Heaven when their body dies (or goes to sleep), they would have all been in Heaven when John got his invite---whether he would have been allowed to see them or not.  Consider my seventh study again (page 159, post 5), where I do a walk through of God's children and where they went when their time in this life was done---both in the O.T. days and into the N.T. days.  Not only this, but I gave other supporting Scripture.  In partial reply to that study, you make the statement, "So?  People are in heaven. A bunch of people have lived and died and gone to heaven.  I don't dispute that."  If you don't dispute that, you have to concede that they would have been in Heaven when John got his invite.  And, if you are not against using logic, you could rightly conclude that he saw them there, as evidenced by what he says in verses 9-10 above.

If you do not believe that everyone who had died from Adam to the time that John got his invite was there, how would you arrive at such a conclusion---based on Scripture?  Something for another thread?  Perhaps.  But something also related to this one.

Mainly because of who is specifically identified at that time in the scripture. If I say we are seeing a group of resurrected believers in the passage in question I'm adding to the description of the group. 

"Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands."

The myriads are angels, living creatures and elders. There no language here to even imply there are believers redeemed in Christ from Adam to the 2nd advent in this scene.  If that language exists, please post it.

Rev 5:1-10 describes who is in the scene. While elders and angels and living creatures are described, no vast group redeemed from Adam to 2nd advent is. The closest we see the saints in heaven at this point is the prayer of the saints. No saints bodily. No souls of saints, just the prayers of the saints; which are held in bowls by the elders.

This is the song:

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,

because You were slain,

and by Your blood You purchased for God

those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made THEM to be a kingdom

and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign uponb the earth.”

So the idea this is the saints singing this song is not supported by the text in v 9-10. Even if I agree 'them' is 'us', there is still no written evidence here, among all the specific and stunning detail in this scene, of a vast group of saints from all time. 

Again, it's a bold assumption. Many make the same error. They shouldn't. It's a terrifying thing. 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

On 2/12/2023 at 5:19 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/11/2023 at 1:15 PM, not an echo said:

Making the tie in with what I have already shown, it is during the 7th Trumpet period that the event of Christ's Second Advent will take place, of which John wrote these words from chapter 17 (which I previously pointed out)...

14 These (speaking of the beast and those in league with him) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Yes. But just who is that? It's not defined. You assume and gap fill. Where does this say it's 'all believers from all time'? In fact the idea it's all believers from all time is an assumption based on the fallacy of gap filling.

If it's an assumption, it's based upon what is consistently revealed to us throughout Scripture and the logical answer to this question:  All Scripture considered, who else would these have been?

The point is the identity of the group in relation to the context of the OP. 

"Is it all from all time or is it the beheaded and overcomers as stated in Rev 20:4-6?"

That's why I say it's undefined. If the ones with Him are 'called, chosen and faithful' are they less so if it's not from all time? Or is it this can't be said about this group except for 'it's all from all time'? 

"Called, chosen and faithful" does not define how big the group is nor where and when they came from. All this defines is that this group is with Christ and the attributes and behavior they possess. 

It's possible this group is redeemed believers from all time, but that isn't established here. 

So, where is it explicitly stated this group is every believer from Adam to 2nd advent? I'll even accept indirect evidence. 

I don't see the idea in scripture anywhere. 

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It's not whether I agree or not. I'm pointing out what the scripture says about who lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years as written in Rev 20:4-6.

 

 

No such thing as a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many claim

Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Cherry picking.

More like you have been silenced by God's words of truth,, you don't want to see "The Day Of The Lord" and man being consumed by the Lord's fire in final judgement (The End)

Zechariah 14:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 being the Lord's day in fire and final judgement, as men are "consumed" by the Lord's fire while standing on their feet

Jesus Is The Lord

(The Day Of The Lord)

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Edited February 28, 2023 by truth7t7

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many claim

Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Sure.  Ignore Rev 20.

Rev 22:19 - And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

You have been warned.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

More like you have been silenced by God's words of truth,, you don't want to see "The Day Of The Lord" and man being consumed by the Lord's fire in final judgement (The End)

Zechariah 14:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 being the Lord's day in fire and final judgement, as men are "consumed" by the Lord's fire while standing on their feet

Not all of them. 

22 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Jesus Is The Lord

(The Day Of The Lord)

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Not denying any of that. 

Zech 14:16

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles"

Don't cherry pick.

 

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many claim

Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

No one is denying that. 

You deny the following:

 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 

3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. 

4And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.

 The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire

7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 

One thousand years isn't a metaphor. It's a duration of a prison sentence, the duration of Kingly reign, a duration which has a completion, and a time period that ends so other events can occur.

It's not a spiritualized time, it's not allegory, it is not a metaphor for eternity.

It's you who denies. 

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

I call myself a "three-point Calvinist." As one may be aware, the five points of Calvinism are found in the word "TULIP," an acronym for "Total Depravity of mankind, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the saint."

I am fully convinced of the Total Depravity of mankind "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

I am fully convinced in the Unconditional Election; that is, that God in His UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for us, has UNCONDITIONALLY CHOSEN us and "predestinated us before the world began."

I am also fully convinced in the Perseverance of the saint, or rather the Perseverance of God for His saint! It is GOD who chooses us, not we who choose God! "We love Him because He first loved us!" And, we can stand in His presence "JUSTIFIED" because He justified us on the basis of His Son "becoming sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be the righteousness of God in Him!"

However, I'm not so convinced of the other two points: 

God does not force upon us His "Irresistible Grace." While He might KNOW who will be led by His Spirit to Himself (and who will not), He does not DETERMINE His grace on us! However, in the very act of Creation, He "DECLARED the end from the beginning," and it WAS determined! But, that's GOD'S knowledge, and He KEEPS IT TO HIMSELF! As far as any one of us knows, it is "whosoever will may come!"

I was given a simple analogy when I was a child that has always stuck with me:

When we come to the time of our New Birth, we pass through a doorway into God's Family. And, above the doorway on the outside is written "Whosoever will may come." But, when we pass through the doorway and look back, over the doorway is written on the inside, "Chosen before the foundation of the world!"

Does God's justification make us "righteous?" No. It makes us "righteousness!" Specifically, we become the "righteousness of God in the Messiah," just as the Messiah on the cross became "our sin," even though He was not a "sinner!"

And, the payment that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") paid on the cross was for the whole world!  (John 3:16) It was NOT a "Limited Atonement!" For, if one rejected that Atonement made for him or her, then that Atonement would be his or her SENTENCE OF DEATH! As Paul said,

Romans 7:7-12 (KJV)

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said,

"Thou shalt not covet." (Exodus 20:17).

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

So, I am a "TUP" Calvinist. While some will say, "OSAS" ("Once Saved Always Saved") is not a belief that is supported by the Scriptures, I maintain that "Salvation" and being "Saved" are misunderstood, and misused. Frankly, they are the WRONG WORDS to use for one's standing with God. (To prove this to oneself, simply look up the verses that Paul quoted in Romans 10 and look at the context of each!) Instead, one is "JUSTIFIED BY GOD!" And, it IS appropriate and supported by the Scriptures to say, "Once Justified By God, ALWAYS Justified By God!" "OJBGAJBG!" HE chooses who is justified and who is not!

And, when it comes to the Onmipresence of God, anything less would be a god over part of the Universe! That sounds like a belief in God being an alien from another planet! This is not a big enough God, for I keep going back to the words of Shlomoh haMelekh ("King Solomon") who said under God's inspiration, "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" (1 Kings 8:27).

The Hebrew phrase for "the heaven and heaven of heavens" is הַשָּׁמַ֜יִם וּשְׁמֵ֤י הַשָּׁמַ֙יִם֙ and it means, "the-skies and skies of-the-skies."

A little history of the word "הַשָּׁמַ֜יִם":

The first occurrence of this word is Genesis 1:1:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew so translated was ...

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

This translates to ...

"In-beginning created 'Elohiym (God) (d.o.->) the-skies and-(d.o.->) the-earth:"

This does NOT technically come BEFORE the rest of Genesis 1, because it is the SYNOPSIS of what is to follow!

The actual forming of הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם "hashaamayim" is found in ...

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The Hebrew reads,

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים יְהִ֥י רָקִ֖יעַ בְּתֹ֣וךְ הַמָּ֑יִם וִיהִ֣י מַבְדִּ֔יל בֵּ֥ין מַ֖יִם לָמָֽיִם׃
וַיַּ֣עַשׂ אֱלֹהִים֮ אֶת־הָרָקִיעַ֒ וַיַּבְדֵּ֗ל בֵּ֤ין הַמַּ֙יִם֙ אֲשֶׁר֙ מִתַּ֣חַת לָרָקִ֔יעַ וּבֵ֣ין הַמַּ֔יִם אֲשֶׁ֖ר מֵעַ֣ל לָרָקִ֑יעַ וַֽיְהִי־כֵֽן׃
וַיִּקְרָ֧א אֱלֹהִ֛ים לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ שָׁמָ֑יִם וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר יֹ֥ום שֵׁנִֽי׃ פ

The translates word-for-word to ...

And-said God "Let-there-be an-expanse in-middle of-the-waters and-let-it-separate between waters from-waters":
And-made God (d.o.->)-the-expanse and-He-divided between the-waters that-[were] under to-expanse and-between the-waters that-[were] above to-expanse, and it-was so:
And-called/named God to-expanse "Shaamaayim" ("Skies") and-there-[was] evening and-there-[was] morning Day two: P (punctuation for end-of-thought)

This was the actual time that God made the skies, on Day 2 of Creation. It was an expanse between the waters above and the waters below. So, there was an atmosphere - gases that expand - between the waters below, which were liquid, and the waters above, which were water vapor, a gas. One can see through pure gaseous water.

My point is this: The EXPANSE of gases were called "the skies." So, "skies of-the-skies" would refer to the "expanse of the expanse of gases" - SPACE!

See, after the Flood in Noach's time, there was no more "waters above the skies." Instead, the waters above were mixed into the atmosphere - mixed into the lower parts of the skies, and coalesced on particles found within the skies, forming what we call "clouds." "Clouds" did not exist before the Flood. Instead, we read:

Genesis 2:4-6 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

This tells us two things: First, the ground was saturated with water, and it didn't need to be tilled to allow plants to grow because it was soft and pourous, like loam.

Second, the dew point was too low to form clouds. Instead, a mist - a low fog - came up during the day and watered the surface of the ground.

This all changed after the Flood, where we read ...

Genesis 7:11-12 (KJV)

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

This Flood didn't start with the waters above, but with the fountains of the great deep being broken up! It was TECTONIC! And, when the hot gases and particles were released into the upper atmosphere, the water vapor there coalesced upon the particles and it rained for 40 days and 40 nights! The waters above the expanse of gases no longer existed in abundance. So now, most of the water on this earth exists as liquid water below the skies, with relatively little getting up into the skies where it coalesces on particles to form clouds WITHIN the skies. Clouds, consisting of condensed, liquid water droplets, suspended in the winds of the air, above the dew point (the flat underside of cumulus clouds), will remain that way until the water condenses enough to form larger drops that then fall to the ground as rain.

So, the expanse was named "skies," and the "expanse of the expanse," would be where the skies thin until there is nothing - SPACE!

So, if we make this substitution into Shlomoh's words, we get:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the skies (the atmosphere) and SPACE cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" (1 Kings 8:27).

Space, which is the nearly empty area found between objects, such as stars and planets and asteroids, etc., we cannot see. But, we see the things which are found IN space, such as those asteroids, moons, planets, stars, galaxies, galaxy clusters, etc. that give dimension to the space we cannot see.

Remember God's words to Avraham:

Genesis 15:1-7 (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,

"Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

2 And Abram said,

"Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"

3 And Abram said,

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

"This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir!"

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said,

"Look now toward heaven (Hebrew: הַשָּׁמַ֗יְמָה "hashaamaymaah," a feminine, singular noun formed from "the skies"), and tell (Hebrew: וּסְפֹר֙ "uwcfor," "and-count") the stars, if thou be able to number them":

and he said unto him,

"So shall thy seed be."

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him,

"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it."

How could God make such a promise if He was not Creator of all that Avram ("Abram") could see?

I'll just end with the statement I made before: If He is not the Almighty Creator God of ALL, then He is not the Almighty Creator God AT ALL! And, He SURPASSES all that He has made!

Sure. I didn't think the point of my post was to elicit an apology for partial Calvinism, but here we are.

I guess we could talk about the nature of the Most High God if you want. I do enjoy the debate; Omniscience, Determinism, Free Will, and levels, limits and interaction thereof.

I just didn't think we were doing that in this thread.  

 

 

 

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not all of them. 

Not denying any of that. 

Zech 14:16

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles"

Don't cherry pick.

 

Zechariah 14:16 Who Will Be Left Of The Nations?

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV

3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[truth7t7]

On 3/1/2023 at 1:35 AM, Diaste said:

No one is denying that. 

You deny the following:

 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 

3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. 

4And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.

 The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire

7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 

One thousand years isn't a metaphor. It's a duration of a prison sentence, the duration of Kingly reign, a duration which has a completion, and a time period that ends so other events can occur.

It's not a spiritualized time, it's not allegory, it is not a metaphor for eternity.

It's you who denies. 

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Edited March 2, 2023 by truth7t7