A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

No, it is the Bridegroom coming.  Matt 25:1-13 The ten virgins were waiting..v6 -At Mid-night a call came that the Bridegroom was coming..  v. 13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

 

No. Paul says that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Those believers he was talking to at that time and future generation who reads it. This is about election.  Either eternal life or the wrath of eternal death.  Nothing to do with the 6th Seal.

 

No these are martyrs during the 70th Week.  They ask for their blood to be avenged.  The Brides blood was taken care of at the Cross.  Stephen the first martyr asked for forgiveness for those who were to kill him, as we should.  These 70th Week saints ask for vengeance.  180 degrees of what we are to do.

There will be no eating and drinking, marrying and giving to marriage during the S. T. and B judgments.  Total Chaos.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Ah! The unknown day and hour is for BOTH comings! Thanks for pointing that out.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

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This is about election.  Either eternal life or the wrath of eternal death.  Nothing to do with the 6th Seal.

Which "wrath?"

1 Thes. 5 (In the context of the rapture verses from chapter 4)

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In context, what wrath would Paul be thinking of except the wrath associated with the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath? 

In short, what Paul is saying is, WE GET RAPTURED, while THEY GET WRATH.

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In context, it is the wrath of the Day of the Lord. 

No these are martyrs during the 70th Week. 

 

Anyone can pull verses out of context and make them say almost anything - but it will certainly not be God's intent. HIs intent is only with scripture left IN CONTEXT.

If we follow John's story line, and His chronology, John does not arrive at the end of the church age UNTIL the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord.

Rev. 4:1  John being called up - perhaps 95 AD

This is the start of John's vision of the throne room: a vision can be of the past, present, future, or all of them mixed.

Rev. 4:2-3  John saw a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father - pointing to a time while Jesus was on the earth or under the earth.

Rev. 4:5 John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room: But Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as HE ascended - this is showing time BEFORE Jesus ascended.

5:1-2 John saw a book sealed with 7 seals - In context, still the throne room while Jesus was on earth.

5:3 John watched a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - but NO MAN WAS FOUND - showing us a time while Jesus was on earth but a time BEFORE He rose from the dead.

5:4  John wept MUCH - not a little - showing us TIME moving on as he weeps.

5:5 John is told he can stop weeping for someone has been found worthy. This tells us Jesus has just risen from the dead. He, the Lion from the tribe of Judah "prevailed..." What did Jesus prevail over that no other human ever did? He prevailed over death. He rose from the dead.

5:6  John saw Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room. He had just ascended. His first ascent was right after He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. As soon as He sent Mary away, He ascended and John got to see that moment in the vision. WHEN did Jesus ascend? Perhaps 32 or 33 AD.

What was the first thing Jesus did upon ascending? He sent the Holy Spirit down.

5:7  John saw Jesus take the book from the Father's hand. WHEN? Around 32 AD.

5:8-14  John saw worship in heaven.

6:1 John saw the first seal being opened. WHEN? Around 32 AD.

God ON PURPOSE showed John a vision of the throne room in John's past (history to John). Why? God wanted to introduce John to the book with 7 seals, but chose to start while the book was still in the Father's hand. Since Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended, God therefore chose to begin this vision of the throne room while Jesus was under the earth.

What then is this first seal to represent if it is something righteous (the white color of the horse) that must overcome and continue to overcome over time and would begin to take place around 32 AD? (The Greek word translated "conquer" was translated as overcome every other place in the KJV.) 

The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

How anyone can imagine John using the color white here for something evil like the Antichrist is beyond me. John used "white" 17 times in this book, and every other time it was for righteousness, Godliness, holiness, or pureness. Using "white" one time out of 17 for evil is something neither John nor the Holy Spirit would do. 

Seals 2 - 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts but LIMITED him to only one fourth of the earth as his theater of operation.

Satan is the god of this world. Was he going to just step aside and allow the gospel to take over HIS kingdoms? NO! He would fight tooth and nail, so to speak, to keep the gospel within that one quarter of the earth. (Probably Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.) Therefore, saints were killed and became MARTYRS. 

The 5th seal then is for the martyrs of the church age.

take careful note: John and the Holy Spirit are in the CHURCH AGE here.  John does not end the church age until just before the Day of the Lord will begin.

It will be church age -------|--------Day of the Lord with no time between.

What will end the church age and trigger the Day of the Lord? Of course, Paul's RAPTURE.

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These 70th Week saints ask for vengeance. 

They are asking WHEN vengeance will come. They TRUST God will avenge them. He has promised to do that. They are asking WHEN. In reality, they are asking how long the church age will last, because God will begin his judgment with the start of the Day of the Lord. They are told that judgment will not begin until the final church age martyr is killed.

If these were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW that judgment was happening as they were about to ask - so no need to ask. They had only to wait for the end of the 7 years and judgment would be finished.

Therefore I disagree with you.

 

 

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

We Strongly Disagree

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 is nothing more than the second coming and Last Day resurrection, clear and simple

Jesus Is The Lord

It is rather simple, but the Holy Spirit has written the Bible in a special way. It is not written like a mathematics book, but written so that it can explain itself and give multiple revelations from one source. The emphasis of 1st Corinthians 15 is to give detail on the resurrection of the Body. 1st Thessalonians has another emphasis - that is, how are the dead Christians not disadvantaged when the Lord comes. But when we put the two together, because it is so cleverly written, we get three times the revelation. But the following is fact:
-  Resurrection is a harvest.
-  Rapture is a harvest
-  Harvests take place over time because fruit ripens at different times
-  Harvests take place over different times because there are different crops
-  This phenomena is observed in nature AND in God's Word. Christ was "firstfruits" of them that slept. The company of Old Testament saints rose on the same day as Jesus, but, slightly "AFTER" (Matt.27:52) were to fulfill the Law of "the Sheaf" (Lev.23:11-15). This hour or so difference was to ensure Christ's preeminence.
-  Then, since Israel rejected the Kingdom, God had to start again with gathering a "people for His Name" (Act.15:14-16). Their harvest must set much later. And so it is. They will be harvested "when He comes". But the Greek word for His "Coming" does not indicate His "coming" to earth, but His "PRESENCE". This "presence" is, as we find out, "in the clouds".
-  Then we have other fruit - tares. And that is harvested before the Church but not unto resurrection (Matt.13, Rev.17)
-  Then we have Israel resurrected after the Great Tribulation but before the Nations (Dan.12:1-2)

... and so on. It is not quite as simple as you make out, and "the Last Day" needs to be defined because you have death during the Millennium, which in turn forces a resurrection at the end of it. I'm not telling you what to do, but until a man sits down and puts each event in it place so that it doesn't cause a conflict with another scripture, you will have conflicting scriptures

[truth7t7]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It is rather simple, but the Holy Spirit has written the Bible in a special way. It is not written like a mathematics book, but written so that it can explain itself and give multiple revelations from one source. The emphasis of 1st Corinthians 15 is to give detail on the resurrection of the Body. 1st Thessalonians has another emphasis - that is, how are the dead Christians not disadvantaged when the Lord comes. But when we put the two together, because it is so cleverly written, we get three times the revelation. But the following is fact:
-  Resurrection is a harvest.
-  Rapture is a harvest
-  Harvests take place over time because fruit ripens at different times
-  Harvests take place over different times because there are different crops
-  This phenomena is observed in nature AND in God's Word. Christ was "firstfruits" of them that slept. The company of Old Testament saints rose on the same day as Jesus, but, slightly "AFTER" (Matt.27:52) were to fulfill the Law of "the Sheaf" (Lev.23:11-15). This hour or so difference was to ensure Christ's preeminence.
-  Then, since Israel rejected the Kingdom, God had to start again with gathering a "people for His Name" (Act.15:14-16). Their harvest must set much later. And so it is. They will be harvested "when He comes". But the Greek word for His "Coming" does not indicate His "coming" to earth, but His "PRESENCE". This "presence" is, as we find out, "in the clouds".
-  Then we have other fruit - tares. And that is harvested before the Church but not unto resurrection (Matt.13, Rev.17)
-  Then we have Israel resurrected after the Great Tribulation but before the Nations (Dan.12:1-2)

... and so on. It is not quite as simple as you make out, and "the Last Day" needs to be defined because you have death during the Millennium, which in turn forces a resurrection at the end of it. I'm not telling you what to do, but until a man sits down and puts each event in it place so that it doesn't cause a conflict with another scripture, you will have conflicting scriptures

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture as you have been shown, same applies to claims of a Millennium on this earth

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

Nahum 1:5KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Edited June 29, 2022 by truth7t7

[Montana Marv]

I guess much depends on ones belief in John 1;1-3. 14.  Is this an Absolute Word or an ever changing word.  The Absolute Word states that Only God the Father knows the time of the Bridegroom.   Those with a view that Scripture will later reveal the time of the Bridegroom is kind of like the Mormons.  God will reveal things when people are ready for them (Blacks were shunned from becoming members, later they could become members; Blacks were forbidden from the priesthood in their church, now they are accepted;  One could not drink Coke a cola, but since they purchased Coke a cola, members can now partake of that drink.)  this is a changing word.

Either the Scripture/Word is total and Absolute, or it can be added to as is necessary. Can't have Only the Father knowing something, and not the Son knowing, and have it known in Scripture.  For many who practice on going developing in the Word, verses the Absolute view,; can't really converse with you.  The Son not knowing, and the Father knowing from the beginning.  No wonder there is so much division.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture as you have been shown, same applies to claims of a Millennium on this earth

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

Nahum 1:5KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

I would leave the matter if it were not for God's honor.

God said that He made man to subdue and rule the earth. The councils of God are either immutable or vain. Take your choice. Either God will have His man first subduing this earth, bringing it to proper order, and then upholding that order by a fair but rigidly righteousness rule, or God has made wild claims.

God has caused His Son Jesus to make heaven and earth for His POSSESSION. Either He will inherit it or Satan has overcome Him and all that is left to do is incinerate the earth.

God caused a man to build an Ark to save that man from a flood that covered the whole earth and killed all the rest of men. This same God has allowed His Son Jesus to be a Savior of men at enormous cost. Either men who call upon this Jesus will be saved from the coming TRAVAIL that again covers the whole earth, or Jesus cannot save a man from God's wrath.

I am certain in mind and spirit that my God - Jehovah - has the power, and the plan, to rapture His People, who place their trust in Him, and who are found in an intimate relationship with Him, away from the scene of TRAVAIL I am fully aware that multiple scriptures place Christians on earth during the TRAVAIL, and am persuaded that they are LEFT because they were not faithfully attached to their God.

I believe that in our dispute, I have produced the plainly worded scriptures that state that Christians who "ATTAIN" to the out-resurrection, and the "PRIZE" of the "Upward Call" and that unless God has set a trap for His People, they mean what they say.

I am deeply encouraged by the fact that neither you, nor other proponents of no escape from the TRAVAIL, can build a coherent argument against the plain language of 1st Thessalonians 4. Language was given by God to transmit ideas. To consistently be accurate in the transmission of these ideas, we have grammatical rules. If the rules of grammar are applied to 1st Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11, there is a
-  DESCENT of Jesus to the clouds
-  RISING of the dead in Christ to the surface of the earth
-  A MEETING of those RISEN and those LIVING
-  TOGETHER they are "taken" by a third force to meet the Lord in the clouds
-  THIS ALL is to combat the "time and the season" of DESTRUCTION on earth
-  Luke 21:35-36 says that we "escape", 1st Thessalonians 5:8-9 says that because we are not appointed to God's wrath we can "hope for salvation", and Revelation 3:10 says that "we are KEPT FROM the hour" - not kept IN it.
-  The language and grammar used in these and other scriptures indicate that the slothful, indifferent, luke-warm, fleshly Christians will NOT be "COUNTED WORTHY" and left to the field they chose.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

I guess much depends on ones belief in John 1;1-3. 14.  Is this an Absolute Word or an ever changing word.  The Absolute Word states that Only God the Father knows the time of the Bridegroom.   Those with a view that Scripture will later reveal the time of the Bridegroom is kind of like the Mormons.  God will reveal things when people are ready for them (Blacks were shunned from becoming members, later they could become members; Blacks were forbidden from the priesthood in their church, now they are accepted;  One could not drink Coke a cola, but since they purchased Coke a cola, members can now partake of that drink.)  this is a changing word.

Either the Scripture/Word is total and Absolute, or it can be added to as is necessary. Can't have Only the Father knowing something, and not the Son knowing, and have it known in Scripture.  For many who practice on going developing in the Word, verses the Absolute view,; can't really converse with you.  The Son not knowing, and the Father knowing from the beginning.  No wonder there is so much division.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Correct. Mark 13:32 is emphatic.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I would leave the matter if it were not for God's honor.

God said that He made man to subdue and rule the earth. The councils of God are either immutable or vain. Take your choice. Either God will have His man first subduing this earth, bringing it to proper order, and then upholding that order by a fair but rigidly righteousness rule, or God has made wild claims.

God has caused His Son Jesus to make heaven and earth for His POSSESSION. Either He will inherit it or Satan has overcome Him and all that is left to do is incinerate the earth.

God caused a man to build an Ark to save that man from a flood that covered the whole earth and killed all the rest of men. This same God has allowed His Son Jesus to be a Savior of men at enormous cost. Either men who call upon this Jesus will be saved from the coming TRAVAIL that again covers the whole earth, or Jesus cannot save a man from God's wrath.

I am certain in mind and spirit that my God - Jehovah - has the power, and the plan, to rapture His People, who place their trust in Him, and who are found in an intimate relationship with Him, away from the scene of TRAVAIL I am fully aware that multiple scriptures place Christians on earth during the TRAVAIL, and am persuaded that they are LEFT because they were not faithfully attached to their God.

I believe that in our dispute, I have produced the plainly worded scriptures that state that Christians who "ATTAIN" to the out-resurrection, and the "PRIZE" of the "Upward Call" and that unless God has set a trap for His People, they mean what they say.

I am deeply encouraged by the fact that neither you, nor other proponents of no escape from the TRAVAIL, can build a coherent argument against the plain language of 1st Thessalonians 4. Language was given by God to transmit ideas. To consistently be accurate in the transmission of these ideas, we have grammatical rules. If the rules of grammar are applied to 1st Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11, there is a
-  DESCENT of Jesus to the clouds
-  RISING of the dead in Christ to the surface of the earth
-  A MEETING of those RISEN and those LIVING
-  TOGETHER they are "taken" by a third force to meet the Lord in the clouds
-  THIS ALL is to combat the "time and the season" of DESTRUCTION on earth
-  Luke 21:35-36 says that we "escape", 1st Thessalonians 5:8-9 says that because we are not appointed to God's wrath we can "hope for salvation", and Revelation 3:10 says that "we are KEPT FROM the hour" - not kept IN it.
-  The language and grammar used in these and other scriptures indicate that the slothful, indifferent, luke-warm, fleshly Christians will NOT be "COUNTED WORTHY" and left to the field they chose.

Long post that doesn't show a pre-trib rapture or a Millennial Kingdom on earth, because neither exists in scripture

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Correct. Mark 13:32 is emphatic.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

The day and hour no man knows is the second coming of Jesus Christ, no rocket science interpretation needed

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The day and hour no man knows is the second coming of Jesus Christ, no rocket science interpretation needed

Then why does the 2nd Coming follow Armageddon.  Everything hinges on when the 70th Week begins.  Once this happens the clock starts ticking.

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Long post that doesn't show a pre-trib rapture or a Millennial Kingdom on earth, because neither exists in scripture

Rev 20:4c - and they came to life and reigned with Christ 1,000 years.  v6 - but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him 1,000 years.

Rev 20:2 - He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, the devil, or Satan; and bound him for 1,000 years.  v7 - and when the 1,000 years are over, Satan will be released from his prison.

Do my eyes deceive me, or do I see 1,000 years 4 times in a matter of 6 verses.

Zech 14: 4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mt of Olives, East of Jerusalem, and the Mt of Olives will be split....  v6,7 - On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost, it will be a unique day without daytime or nighttime, a day known to the Lord, When evening comes there will be light.  14:16 - Then, the survivors from all the nations that attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.  It does not say how long, but I am pretty sure this will last for 1,000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The day and hour no man knows is the second coming of Jesus Christ, no rocket science interpretation needed

You are correct. The date and time is not known, but the context does not speak of Christ's coming in glory after the Tribulation as you will have. The context changes in verse 28. A parable is given. According to Matthew 13 Christ is speaking solely to the disciples when He speaks in parables. And the next verse concerns the "house", the "servants", the "Master" and His going and His coming. This can only be the Church. In verse 27 the Lord's coming is bright and impressive, but in verse 35 it like a thief at midnight or man's circadian low of the early morning.

The glorious coming can be calculated because it will occur three and one half years after the Abomination of Desolation. It is THAT SECRET COMING that no man knows, not the coming that pertains to the gathering of Israel from the four winds. And it is that secret coming that pertains to the "HOUSE of SERVANTS".

Rightly divide the Word and all is clear. The Master of HOUSE will come unannounced and take what is valuable. The King of Israel will be announced by a sign (Matt.24:30).