Is abortion for raped victims allowed ?

[Jayne]

51 minutes ago, tim_from_pa said:

In this day and age where no woman in the USA knows too much less than what the woman's movement brought to them, such a passage leaves them aghast understandably. 

We will just have to leave this be.  I cannot talk about this anymore.

I'm sorry that you think I am "aghast" because of some women's movement.  I'm just trying to conduct a proper Bible study.

Good day.

[The_Patriot21]

3 hours ago, servant4christ said:

Have you ever known anyone that became pregnant as a result of rape? It is quite easy to stand from afar as a male and tell women what they should do. It is not so easy when it happens to you.

In any case, the two examples that have been specifically raised were in a 10 year old girl and a 9 year old girl. I do not accept that these children should be forced to endure the pregnancy on top of the rape.

There one goes with emotional arguments again.

The whole your a guy you wouldn't understand argument is just that-an emotional argument, and a weak one at that.

See, your right I don't understand what a woman in that position is going through. Being a guy, I probably never will. 

But, that doesn't change right and wrong. There was near where I live, several years ago, an incident that happened. This guy went and raped a 16 year old. He was arrested but got out on bail. Well, the daughters dad lost his cool tracked the guy down and shot him in a bar. Dad is now facing life in prison.

Now, being a dad of a daughter I do have an incline of how he felt, but that doesn't make what he did right. What he did was murder. It was wrong. No matter how I feel, no matter how that dad felt, what he did was wrong. His feelings were irrelevant.

Feelings, emotions, don't dictate right and wrong. God does. And according to God murder, which is what abortion is, is wrong. It is killing an innocent life.

If something is wrong, then not to sound cold, it is wrong no matter what you or anyone else, feels about it. Your feelings and emotions do not dictate right and wrong.

So while that young mother maybe dealing with a trauma I cannot even begin to imagine or understand, that doesn't make it ok to kill the child. Two wrongs never, ever, make a right.

Nor will killing the child take the trauma away  or even heal the trauma. I have never ever heard a woman who was raped and then had an abortion say "yeah that abortion helped me heal"

I mean if you can think of an example, be my guest and share it, but I'm willing to bet you can't list an example either.

What will bring healing is Jesus love and grace. Which is something we as christians should be doing-pointing women in these scenarios to Christ. However, encouraging them to have an abortion is not doing that, because that is something Jesus would never, ever, do. And doing so is leading these women away from Christ, the one thing that could bring healing. By supporting and encouraging abortion a Christian is quite literally being a stumbling block to others. And the Bible has strong things to say about that.

 

[Sower]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

With the sheer amount on miscarriages over human history, heaven must be absolutely packed with those that were never viable and lost in the womb after a few days to a few weeks.

You may want to consider there are many parents, my wife and I included, are looking forward to the day we get to meet our miss carried child.

[servant4christ]

3 hours ago, Sower said:

Walter said;

"You stated: " I understand many hold this opinion, "

Uh yeah like "Christians",  "servant4christ"?"

Yes, he did say that. He also went on to say "Well, quite frankly, they ain't christians" (Walter's emphasis, not mine) as I showed you earlier. They being people that do not believe personhood begins at conception.

Do what you will with that information.

[teddyv]

1 hour ago, Sower said:

You may want to consider there are many parents, my wife and I included, are looking forward to the day we get to meet our miss carried child.

We've been there too.

[servant4christ]

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

There one goes with emotional arguments again.

Pointing out that you don't (and cannot) identify with a woman in that situation is a fact, not an emotional argument.

1 hour ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Feelings, emotions, don't dictate right and wrong. God does. And according to God murder, which is what abortion is, is wrong. It is killing an innocent life.

You are presenting your opinion as fact, but that does not make it so.

As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, emergency contraception is commonly used after rape. There are those that feel that this is also abortion, but I disagree. I don't know how safe this would be for the 9 and 10 year old girls mentioned earlier, but I suspect it would be much safer than being forced to carry a baby to term - which is exactly what some people want to see happen.

[The_Patriot21]

56 minutes ago, servant4christ said:

Pointing out that you don't (and cannot) identify with a woman in that situation is a fact, not an emotional argument.

You are presenting your opinion as fact, but that does not make it so.

As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, emergency contraception is commonly used after rape. There are those that feel that this is also abortion, but I disagree. I don't know how safe this would be for the 9 and 10 year old girls mentioned earlier, but I suspect it would be much safer than being forced to carry a baby to term - which is exactly what some people want to see happen.

Yes...I presented that Im not a woman and can't fully understand what they're going through is indeed a fact. I presented it as such, I did not pretend otherwise.

What I said was, using that to justify abortion is an emotional argument. Which it is. Ok, she's going through trauma. That's a fact. No I don't understand it, that's also a fact.

But that doesn't make abortion right. Saying she can murder someone just because she can't handle the emotional trauma is an emotional argument, and not one based upon fact but rather your opinion based upon emotions.

See, my "opinion" as you so call it about abortion, isn't based upon trauma, my personal experience or really, anything in my life. It's based upon what God says, in His holy book, which is very adamant and clear that murder, is wrong, and is very clear that life is sacred, not something to be tossed at a whim.

While your feelings towards abortion is based entirely upon what you feel, and upon what women who have been raped feel, mine is based upon actual Biblical fact, not my own personal feelings, which is 100% what your opinion is based upon.

I can say that with certainty, because had you been basing your opinion upon Biblical fact, we would not be having this conversation. 

You make the accusation that I am presenting my opinion as fact. Well, your accusation is accurate, I am presenting it as fact, because it IS fact. 100% true, impirical, fact based upon outside evidence -being God's holy, inspired word, the Bible. And if that's a crime, then I'm guilty. I make absolutely no apologies for defending God's holy word and the lives of the unborn.

 

 

 

[servant4christ]

7 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

While your feelings towards abortion is based entirely upon what you feel, and upon what women who have been raped feel, mine is based upon actual Biblical fact, not my own personal feelings, which is 100% what your opinion is based upon.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not supporting abortion, I am supporting nuanced conversation regarding abortion.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread and you probably missed it, but it is my belief that since we do not know when personhood begins, it is reasonable and logical to try to reduce abortions as much as possible. I also believe that there are better ways to reduce abortion that to legislate its prohibition. Paid family leave would be a very good place to start. The United States is completely archaic in this regard.

7 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

You make the accusation that I am presenting my opinion as fact. Well, your accusation is accurate, I am presenting it as fact, because it IS fact. 100% true, impirical, fact based upon outside evidence -being God's holy, inspired word, the Bible.

It is very interesting that you claim you are basing your opinion on scripture, yet you do not provide any scripture supporting your opinion. What is factual is that the Bible does not clearly state that personhood begins at conception.

7 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

And if that's a crime, then I'm guilty. I make absolutely no apologies for defending God's holy word and the lives of the unborn.

If you do not approve of emotional arguments, you should probably not use them.

[Figure of eighty]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:40 AM, servant4christ said:

There has been a rather publicized case here in the US of a 10 year-old girl that became pregnant after being raped. There is no reasonable argument that a 10 year-old girl should be forced to have a baby. This is one of the reasons why an outright ban on abortion is not a good idea.

I agree. Im against abortion but no 10yr old at that age should be carrying a child to term. At this point alot of people seem to want to win an argument then look at the big picture. Sometimes abortions are needed.

On 7/15/2022 at 10:31 AM, Deborah_ said:

For most women, to become pregnant as a result of rape is a continuation of the assault. Having dealt with many rape victims through my career, I can assure you that most of them fear pregnancy more than they fear catching sexually transmitted infections.

This is why even strict anti-abortion laws usually make an exception for rape.

Now I would agree that the baby in such a case is innocent and deserves a chance to live - but few women can cope psychologically with carrying such a pregnancy to term (even if the baby is then adopted). It's hard even for Christians, it's almost impossible for unbelievers.

Thankfully the advent of emergency contraception has made pregnancy after rape much rarer.

Agreed.

On 7/15/2022 at 1:56 PM, Jayne said:

But were there mothers 9 years old?  There was a 9  year old in Argentina several years ago who was raped by a family member and became pregnant.  The reason that it made world-wide news was that her mother didn't want her 9 year old to carry the baby full term and their church, a Catholic church was forbidding the abortion.  They were forbidding the mother and the doctor.

I could not come to terms with an answer for myself.  I hate abortion, but I also hate the thought of a 9 year old ballooning in size to carry a full term baby and her tiny body going through birth.

I have trouble with the idea of Christians "forcing" woman and little female children carry a child of a rapist.

If they can do it, I believe they should. But what if they can't?

 

I have trouble with that too. Like i said its more of people wanting to win am argument. A lot of people don't want to put in the work to actually make a difference. They'll say well theres plenty of charities and pregnancy crisis centers but its still not enough. I truly feel if you believe the life of unborn children and children period is valuable you'll put your money where your mouth is. Its not enough to say well someone else is doing it-- no you do something to because with the influx of children coming alot of help will be needed. Thats why when a coworker told me about her possibly being pregnant I told her I have clothes, diapers, a carrier..anything she needs bc Its hard. It takes help..it takes a village not lazy feel good one liners. It takes actual help. That part many arent willing to do.

14 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Last I checked the baby didn't cause the rape so why should the baby be punished for it? If someone were to say murder my wife would it be ok to just go murder someone else's wife? It's the same logic...punishing the innocent for the crimes of someone else is in no way just, loving, nor Christlike.

No they didn't but I understand not wanting to be traumatized further. What if the victim was your wife? Would you be okay raising and loving a child that isnt yours but conceived in this manner? Im not for abortion i just feel some situations may require it.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Figure of eighty

[Ray12614]

17 hours ago, Sower said:

Potential inconvenience to unwilling host.

My children have caused me innumerable inconviences, yet at no time have I contemplated killing them. 2 wrongs do not make it right.