The Word of God (Scripture)

[Selah7]

@Rosie1jack2pauline3  The way I understand it, “free will” or “free choice” pertains to salvation—whether you choose Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.  In other words, it doesn’t mean general life choices like, “Do I choose to go to the store or not?”  “Chosen” is when God chose according to His foreknowledge of you.  

[Michael37]

8 minutes ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

Can you expound more on “ those choices” ? thanks.

if God shows you his will, then you best do it, yes or no?....

Matthew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

Joshua 24:15 is the obvious verse to study regarding our ability to choose.

In the context the options are between serving false gods or the true God.

The main plot thread running through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is CONFLICT, namely between God and those who oppose His Will.

The main theme thread running through the Bible is CHOICE, namely what God chooses to do about His Creation.

We know He chooses to redeem sinners, having the motive, means, and method, and we also know that He allows us all the option of receiving Christ as the means of our redemption or not.

He came to His own, but His own received Him not.

[David1701]

10 hours ago, Mr. M said:

And now  you are separating these scriptures quoted from "those He foreknew".

Not into "libertarian" or any other doctrines of men. God knew that

the first generation who came out of Egypt would fall away, but the next

entered in and then what happened?

Joshua 24:31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua,

and all the days of the elders who outlived Joshua,

who had known all the works of the Lord which He had done for Israel.

(Not because they were pre-programmed). I am not at all moved

by these doctrines of academic men of leisure.

There is an ability to learn a life lesson, as you have shared,

what remains is for a generation to pass on to the next what

the scriptures refer to as the "Memorials of Torah".

I know what this means, and I have seen it by experience,

and I don't buy the "they were never saved in the first

place" explanation. Men get offended, and turn away. Fact. 

Hebrews 12:

14 Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 

15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any 

root of bitterness springing up cause trouble,

and by this many become defiled.

16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, 

who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks.

For if they did not escape who refused Him who

spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape 

if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven.

Be Faithful

Hebrews 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an

evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” 

lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 

14 For we have become partakers of Christ

if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the

end, (there is that IF word again @kwikphilly )

15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

I absolutely take the time to hear His Voice. Not always 

a good report either. Anyone who chooses to disbelieve

me, the love of God is not in them.

1 Corinthians 13:

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not

parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek

its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 

6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 

7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I have yet to be provoked by anyone's opinion. If someone has a testimony,

I listen and rejoice, and I believe in the experiences of others, for our 

God is the God of the living; thereby many do err, being indoctrinated

by education, not illuminated by the Presence, the Voice, and the 

commendation of the Spirit. I have been completely broken, and no

doctrine can fix that, just a broken and contrite heart, 

given over to the Lord who heals the brokenhearted.

Shema, O Israel! Listen and Obey!

Here is the remedy that Paul has already prescribed:

Philippians 3:

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind;

and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal

even this to you. 

16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already

attained, let us walk by the same rule,

let us be of the same mind.

Lest we be found to have condemned the guiltless. Mt. 12:7

Hebrews was written to Jews who had heard the gospel.  Falling short of the grace of God, or any of the other parts of Hebrews misused to teach that you can forfeit your salvation, were warnings about reverting to Judaism, having heard the gospel, and not going on to faith in the Messiah.

If you think that you can lose your salvation, then from what has God saved you?  This teaching that you can be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost is deeply dishonouring to the Lord, who is the one who saves and keeps.  Salvation is of the Lord, not man's will or works.

The ones whom the Father draws effectually to Jesus WILL be raised up at the last day.  To claim otherwise is to lie, and to call God a liar.

The effects of the "We're not saved, but on probation." false teaching are to promote pride in those who think that they are being good enough to stay saved, and despair in those who realise that they can't.  Nothing good comes from it - ever.

[Mr. M]

4 hours ago, Selah7 said:

I still believe and want to emphasize that Christ died for everyone who comes to Him, including the chosen and the free-will.

 

4 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

Those who strongly emphasize the sovereignty of God in predestining who will be saved

I do not read from scripture that predestination determines who will be saved,

but HOW they are saved, as the elect given by the Father to the Son, as a 

privileged opportunity to serve Him, which comes with greater reward. Jesus

said that those who knew the Father's Will (called and chosen) but are unfaithful

receive the greater condemnation. What theologians who contribute to got

questions or the like clearly ignore is what the Prophets say about the Father's

heart for the oppressed, the widow the orphan the persecuted Jew or other 

minority. They are promised salvation directly from the Father's heart, 

because he loves mercy, not sacrifice. To be among the election is clearly 

stated that they are, in fact, called upon to offer their lives up as a living

sacrifice, in service to the Son, and our Lord and Savior. To fail to make

this obvious distinction clear is why so many people think the bizarre,

cruel idea that most people are damned to hell because they didn't

serve Jesus as Lord. Most people throughout history, and especially 

today among 8 billion souls, are as a majority oppressed by a powerful

minority as a subsistence farmer, or sweat shop factory worker just

trying to get by. They aren't saved by grace through faith in the Son,

they are saved by the righteous judgment and merciful kindness of

a loving creator/Father God. I discuss this in detail in a teaching

thread I have posted entitled Justice for the Poor, a reformed view

of salvation. Those who are saved among the elect are promised

to rule in the Kingdom of God's Son. Rule who? the wicked?,

the cruel and violent oppressor? Nope, they are judged accordingly,

by what is clearly taught in the scriptures as the righteous judgment

of God, and has been given authority by His Son, and those who rule

with Him. It is actually quite a simple concept. If God has promised

justice for the oppressed, this must include judgment unto condemnation

to the oppressors. I would divide that about 10% oppressor, with a majority

living a life of oppression by the people who scripture condemns:those

who abuse workers of their wages, who persecute minorities, and even

the Pharisees who oppressed widows of their God given legal right

for consolation. To say only those who serve Christ are saved is to show

ignorance of the Father's heart of mercy, and the equally clear doctrine

of reward. We serve by Christ in us,in the hope of glory and great reward.

2 John 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things

we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.

That's right baby, the election are ordained to do the work,

that's why those who receive the reward are called, and chosen

AND faithful.

[David1701]

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

It's actually woven through the entirety of Scripture... and right from the get go God has said so! As I have shown in the beginning.

This is, of course, complete nonsense.

Rom. 9:14-16 (KJV)

 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
  15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
  16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Here we have it, as simply and clearly as anyone could wish for: God's choice of upon whom to have mercy and compassion, is not based upon man's will or works, but is within God himself.

Regarding the false teaching that man has so-called "free will" (i.e. his will is, allegedly, not determined by anything other than itself, including man's desires, knowledge, understanding, fears, etc.), the Bible very clearly refutes this, in numerous places.

Eph. 2:1-3 (Webster)

 1 And you hath he made alive , who were dead in trespasses and sins;
  2 In which in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
  3 Among whom also we all had our manner of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Here, we see that unbelievers fulfil the desires of the flesh and mind, according to their nature.  This is entirely contrary to so-called "free will", which claims that the will is not determined by such things (or, in fact, anything at all, except itself).

Proverbs 21:1 (Webster) The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it wherever he will.

This is as clear as day: the LORD turns the hearts of kings wherever he wants (since this is the case with kings, how much more is it true of those with lesser authority).  In other words, God determines which way a man's heart will turn.  He might think that he has so-called "free will", but it is merely a figment of his imagination.

Rom. 8:8 (Webster) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Obviously the apostle Paul did not believe in "free will", since, here, he says that those who are "in the flesh" (i.e. unsaved) CANNOT please God.  Did you catch that?  They are UNABLE to please God; their will is not "free" to please God, but is utterly bound by sin.

I could go on, presenting proof after proof, but these should be enough for anyone.

I agree with Luther, that the Old and New Testaments are like two armies, opposed to "free will".  I would strongly recommend you to read Luther's book "Bondage of the Will", or one of the simplified versions.

Edited January 25, 2023 by David1701

[David1701]

8 hours ago, Mr. M said:

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, 

but grace AND truth came through Jesus Christ. 

John 8:

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, 

“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 

32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 14:

15 If you love Me, keep My commandments. 

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another 

Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,

because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him,

for He dwells with you and will be in you. 

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send

in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your 

remembrance all things that I said to you. 

The Doctrines of Grace seems to be the only Gospel to those

who preach grace. The Gospel of John is the Gospel of Truth.

Is that enough context for you Br. David?
 

Maybe grace is enough to draw someone into accepting

the Gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation, but then there is this:

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of

our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Until I read this,  I used to think that as I grew in the 

knowledge of Truth, I would need less grace to fall upon.

What we scientists call an inverse relationship. 

Alas, it is grace from first to last, but it is the Truth 

that allows us to enjoy the liberty of conscience for

the sons and daughters of God.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, 

He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His

own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak;

and He will tell you things to come. 

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God

always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God 

from the beginning chose you for salvation through

sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

Anyone who hasn't fully internalized the word "abide", 

from the Gospel of John and 1 John is not fully qualified

to preach and teach the Gospel.

John 15:

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,

unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me,

and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch

and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire,

and they are burned. 

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask

what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 

8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; 

so you will be My disciples.

Thanks be to God for this indescribable gift!

1 John 2:

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard

from the beginning.

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, 

you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 

25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try

to deceive you. 

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him

abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you;

but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things,

and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you,

you will abide in Him.

 

 

Do you have a point?

[David1701]

18 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

 

I do not read from scripture that predestination determines who will be saved,

...

I don't have time to deal with your whole post, but this needs to be addressed.

To predestine, is to determine someone's destiny, in advance; so, by definition, it determines what will happen to him.  If God has chosen someone for salvation, then he predestines him to be saved.  To put this in other words (with identical meaning), his destiny is predetermined, and that destiny is salvation.

Eph. 1:5 (Webster) Having predestinated us to the adoption of children to himself by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,

If you are predestined to be adopted as a child of God, then you are obviously predestined to salvation, since you don't get adopted without being saved.

Rom. 8:29,30 (Webster)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
  30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Note the unbroken chain: foreknew (this means "chose beforehand", when applied to people), predestined (destiny predetermined) to be conformed to the image of Jesus (you can't have this without being saved), called (i.e. called effectually to Jesus - see 1 Cor. 1:23,24), justified (declared righteous) and, finally, glorified (this is future, when we are resurrected; but it is so certain, that it is declared to be accomplished already).

[Mr. M]

12 minutes ago, David1701 said:

If you think that you can lose your salvation, then from what has God saved you? 

He has saved you for His own purpose, to serve His Son.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, 

not according to our works, but according to His own purpose

and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

If there is no clear evidence that there are those given the opportunity

to serve their master, and squander the privilege, then Jesus never taught

a single lesson on who will be rewarded as a good and faithful servant.

Luke 12:

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise servant,

whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them

their portion in due season? 

43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing

when he comes. 

44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 

45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’

and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink

and be drunk, 

46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not

looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware,

and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 

47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare 

himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 

48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes,

shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given,

from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed,

of him they will ask the more.

19 minutes ago, David1701 said:

This teaching that you can be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost is deeply dishonouring to the Lord, who is the one who saves and keeps.  Salvation is of the Lord, not man's will or works.

No brother, those who teach that only the election are saved and everyone

else is damned to hell is a cruel and heartless misrepresentation of the Father.

We are among those who have been entrusted with a divine commission

and given the greatest gifts of grace, and as a matter of fact, are expected

much more of then those who were not given to the Son by the Father.

Jesus promised that no one can snatch them from Him, but he does

not say they are free to do as they please either. That is not a doctrine,

that's just what He taught, often by parables, because the common people

were not chosen and not given to understand the principles of the kingdom.

That does not not make them children of Satan. Those who willfully oppose

Christ are those who serve the spirit of anti-christ and serve Satan.

Most people throughout history have just tried to earn an honest living

and raise a family. It is the privileged, the educated, the wealthy who

manufacture most doctrines that divide the faithful into factions, and

ignore the Father's heart towards the poor, the oppressed, the widow,

the orphan, the persecuted Jew or other minority. They are promised

deliverance and justice. They were not called and chosen to serve the

Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is why the scriptures clearly state:

2 Peter 1:

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,

and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call

and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 

11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the

everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And those who rule with Him are called, and chosen, AND FAITHFUL.

Rule who? Certainly not the cruel and violent oppressors, they are 

the condemned. Most everyone else clearly qualify for the merciful

kindness of our loving Father. They simply are not the election, 

only a remnant of the Jews, and a chosen number of Gentiles serve.

If everyone is called to the ministry, who are the ministered? 

 

[enoob57]

49 minutes ago, David1701 said:

I agree with Luther, that the Old and New Testaments are like two armies, opposed to "free will".  I would strongly recommend you to read Luther's book "Bondage of the Will", or one of the simplified versions.

David you either take in God's Word, which is truth, or you don't ... it's that simple

John 8:31 (KJV)

[31] Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

[32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The fact you teach God's Word is insufficient and God must do additional to what He has done in delivering said Word to mankind... I don't accept as a Biblical concept. We will each individually answer to God for how we have handled the Word of Truth

John 12:48 (KJV)

[48] He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The fact that God says it plainly
Genesis 3:22 (KJV)

[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This is the condition of fallen man to know both good and evil and the elective predestined plan of God to remove the tree that would seal him in that condition... because elective predestined plan of God is to gather those who have followed that plan unto redemption and await the new heaven and earth where the concept of evil will no longer exist... it is easy to see if evil shall cease from all knowledge in the new heaven and earth, (the eternal state),  then those sealed in the knowledge of evil could not abide there...

 

[Mr. M]

45 minutes ago, David1701 said:

The effects of the "We're not saved, but on probation."

Philippians 2:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed,

not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, 

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

This is not a false doctrine, and only applies to the election. If you aren't

chosen, you cannot lose the reward of the faithful. Salvation is for all,

but who chose the way of the wicked will be cast away as the chaff.

If you are so confident in this doctrine, why are you condemning so many

when few are chosen? I don't see the righteous judgment of a merciful

Father, just a few that got lucky, won the lottery, and have a free gift

that everyone else is just so much refuse. All they have to do is accept

Christ as Lord and Savior? That's not a covenant relationship through

the Son. They are called to serve, and be judged accordingly. The rest

live a life that was ordained for them from the foundation of the world.

Adam was commanded to tend the land. The majority of mankind

throughout history have done so under a curse. Yet if they do so faithfully,

why the condemnation?  They didn't tithe the produce of the land, or

follow laws of rest for the land because they were not the among

the first chosen to be a covenant people and given a Law for keeping

the land holy.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,

and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou

should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,

and them that fear thy name, small and great; and

should destroy them which destroy the earth.

How many prosperous people who are defined as consumers

among the nations escape that judgment? And why, because

they attended a church that promised them they will go straight

to heaven simply by believing? The western nations with their

military might and economic power sound more like the fourth

beast of Daniel that tread down the earth, than a nation under God.

My modest suggestion to every Christian is to reduce their proverbial

"carbon footprint" and stop devouring the poor.

Isaiah 3:

13 The Lord stands up to plead,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord will enter into judgment
With the elders of His people
And His princes:
“For you have eaten up the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the faces of the poor?”
Says the Lord God of hosts.