Faith and Works

December 23, 2005

But someone will say "You have faith and I have works" Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:18

Therefore to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. James 4:17

December 23, 2005

shiloh357

It is up to us to stop lying, cheating, stealing, fornicating, killing, etc. When I am putting away these sins I am working out my salvation. As long as these sins remain in my life as a Christian I will NOT obtain heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9).

No what you are ultimately describing is working FOR your salvation, not working OUT your salvation. Working out your salvation, understood properly means to allow your faith to be put on display to "work" it in the sight of men. It means to allow your faith to lived out in the presence of sinners as a testimony of the salvation already present within you.

While we are to put away sins such as you have mentioned, that applies to the process of sanctification, not "working out" your salvation.

Here is a scenerio for you. Say I have been living a good Christian life for the past 5 years and one day I meet a nice looking woman. We get better aquainted and start living in fornication. According to the law of God and Christ this is a sin and such a sin will keep me from obtaining heaven.

Staying in this sin will keep me from heaven according to 1 Corinthians 6:9. So we learn ffrom this that I will lose the grace that was given to me by God because I chose to worship and serve the creature more than the creator. So now I am doomed to be damned in the lake of fire after judgment day.

Well, what exactly is a "good Christian life?" One can go to church, read his Bible, tithe, sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, etc. There is nothing in how we live that is really much of a defense against temptation. Just because you were living a "good Christian life" doesn't even mean you are a Christian to start with. Your scenario amounts to you living righteously and then *bada bing* your living in aberrant sin. Not even a realistic scenario. What if instead, you were living a "good Christian life," and you told a lie? Or you laughed at a dirty joke? or you had a improper thought? How about using more realistic scenarios that are more common to everyday experiences that most people have? What about the sin you committed this morning? This afternoon? This evening? Did you have to go and get resaved each time?

As for 1Cor. 6:9... People like to use this to heap condemnation on other believers who slip and fall. It is time that such treatment stopped.

In the city of Corinth, sin was rampant. Unfortunately sin entered the church as well. Paul's point 1Cor 6:9 not that if you fall into sin, you are damned. Paul was countering the prevalent notion in that day that what the Bible calls sin is purely normal animal behaviorism. In this culture, moral and immoral were relative concepts. The same thinking is very much a part of our modern culture. I have dealt with another person on this board who sought to justify her fornication as not being fornication at all. To her, fornication was means of clearing her mind and situating herself. It helped "get her bearings," if you will. As far as she was concerned, her fornication should in no way exclude her from being a Christian. We have had homosexuals come on our boards and demand to be considered as part of the Christian faith.

It was that kind of reasoning that Paul was combatting. You have to examine the verses prior to what Paul is saying in v.9. In the verses prior, Paul was rebuking them for taking each other to secular courts. These judges were those mentioned in v.6. Paul is showing the injustice they were committing againt each other by appealing to pagan tribunals over trivial matters. These tribunals run by idolators, fornicators, the effeminate, those who had no part in the Kingdom of God. Paul is saying why should those who have no part in the Kingdom of God serve as arbitors between those who will one day judge the world (see v. 2)? Paul was not preaching eternal damnation for falling into sin. He was saying that those who have no part in the Kingdom of God should not be allowed to sit in judgement upon those who in the Kingdom.

You are very mistaken about our inner man. Christ does not automatically make me a different person when I am saved.

I am not mistaken. You just don't know the Word of God. Yes, Jesus does make you a new person:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17) If Christ has not changed you, you are not saved.

If you would be so kind to read these scriptures below you will that out that it is up to ME to put off the old man and to put on the new man. My works, that you are desperately trying to say don't save you, are obeying these very verses.

Ephesians
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he
may have to give to him that needeth.
4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may
minister grace unto the hearers.
4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven
you.

No, those works don't save. There is nothing mentioned in that list of verses that saves anyone. This what is commanded to Christians, not people who are trying to earn their the right to go to heaven. Eph. 4:21-32 is a description of a Christian should look like. It is not a list of qualifications to enter heaven.

We have verses that say that works and the law don't save us, but yet you also have scriptures that say they are important. Is the a contradiction?

No, there is no contradiction at all. There are NO verses that say that works will save you. That your own subjective, sloppy interpretation of Scripture. Works are important. Works are important because they what give authenticity to our verbal testimony, our profession of faith in Christ. They do procure our salvation, but they demonstrate. They are the out working of our salvation before men.

What should I believe when I read verses such as, "Faith without works is dead" and that we will be judged by our works?

Two things here. First of all faith without works IS dead. But what context does that phrase appear in? James was discussing our works as a testimony of our faith before men. Nowhere in James 2 is he saying that works justify us in the sight of God. James point is that true biblical faith is demonstrated by corresponding action. Faith without works is dead. It is dead because it is not faith at all, simply mental assent. James point is that a living faith in Christ is operative in nature.

Secondly, Christians are judged for their works at the judgement seat of Christ. This is not the great white throne judgement. Rather it is where we will receive our rewards for how we lived for Christ. It is NOT a judgement that determines our salvation.

Eph 2:10, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You cannot side step this scripture. We were created unto good works and have to walk in them. This completely contradicts your reasoning. The works that don't save us are the works of the old law.

I did not sidestep that verse at all. In fact, I have quoted it to you in the past. We are created for good works. But you cannot find ONE good work mentioned in the New Testament that was not all ready in the OT. The good works that Paul had on His mind were already deliniated in the Torah/Law. The New Testament simply elucidates them and expands upon them. You incorrectly try to limit "works of the law" to ceremonial things such as the sacrifices, and you have no grounds for making that distinction. Good works are a reference to God's moral code spelled out in the OT and expounded upon in the New Testament. The New Testament does not present us with a different moral code, whatsoever. What is sin in Deut. is sin in the New Tesatment too in terms of God's moral standards.

As I have said before, I am not advocating works only. I am keeping as the bible teaches that BOTH faith and works are needed.

No, the Bible says that we are not saved by works:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Titus 3:5)

angels4u · December 23, 2005

It is up to us to stop lying, cheating, stealing, fornicating, killing, etc. When I am putting away these sins I am working out my salvation. As long as these sins remain in my life as a Christian I will NOT obtain heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9).

I am able to overcome these sins and the lust for them with the Holy Spirit and Strength from Christ.

Wow, you are good and I don't think there will be many people in heaven, you are able to overcome your sins? God must be pretty pleased with you.

Why did Jesus come down to earth? He came to save sinners from their sins and He will keep forgiving their sins if they confess them to Him , Jesus lived a sinless life and I quess you do too?

MrSealedEternal · December 23, 2005

It is up to us to stop lying, cheating, stealing, fornicating, killing, etc. When I am putting away these sins I am working out my salvation. As long as these sins remain in my life as a Christian I will NOT obtain heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9).

I am able to overcome these sins and the lust for them with the Holy Spirit and Strength from Christ.

Wow, you are good and I don't think there will be many people in heaven, you are able to overcome your sins? God must be pretty pleased with you.
Why did Jesus come down to earth? He came to save sinners from their sins and He will keep forgiving their sins if they confess them to Him , Jesus lived a sinless life and I quess you do too?

Good point. I just hope he's able to stay perfect.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one {point,} he has become guilty of all.

eric · December 23, 2005

From cardcaptor

Salvation is NOT based soley on works, works are an essential part of my salvation in that it is my obedience to the law of Christ. If I do not follw the law of Christ I will lose my salvation.

Sorry I have just joined this thread and haven't had time to read thru all of it yet.

Works are not any part of your salvation.. Works come after salvation. Works are what you do to demonstrate what salvation, ( receiving Christ as your Lord ans Saviour ) has done to turn your life around, like not hiding your light under a bushel, so people would wish to follow your example and be saved and enjoy the in-filling of the Holy Spirit.

Well that's my take on "works"

eric

MrSealedEternal · December 23, 2005

How many people on this board read or study thier bibles? If you did then you would have not made such statements about overcomming.

Revelations 2:7 He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcommeth will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So I guess all those that don't overcome won't get this.

It is you that is not studying your Bible.

1 John 5:3-5 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world --our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

It is our faith that overcomes the world, not our works. Jesus overcame sin, and we are overcomers by faith in Him. If you are a Christian, you should keep His commandments, but you should do it out of love, rather tyhan a selfish attempt to save yourself, which will never work anyway.

Mr SE

Edited December 23, 2005 by Mr*MrsSealedEternal

December 23, 2005

How many people on this board read or study thier bibles? If you did then you would have not made such statements about overcomming.

Revelations 2:7 He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcommeth will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So I guess all those that don't overcome won't get this.

Revelations 21:6-8 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Wow, this says completely the opposite of what you said.

I have seen people who were smokers, drinkers, etc. come into the church and with the strenght of Christ overcome these sins. I myself have learned to be more patient, longsuffering, merciful, etc. and quit swearing, drinking, lying, stealing, etc. We overcome the world and satan by putting away our sins.

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

How do we overcome? For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:4-5)

Therein lies the difference between you and I. I have already overcome. I already have the victory. We who trust in Christ alone, start from the place of victory. We start as overcomers. We start from the place you are trying to end up. Good luck.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We all will still sin because we are in the flesh. We are commanded to let it not reign in us. I let it reign in me when I choose not to repent. Some sins is like trying to quit from smoking. It may take me awhile to overcome it but with the help of Christ I can overcome all things. Now, I don't smoke any more but when I did I tried to quit a few times and eventually got it right. That is the way sin is. In God's mercy he gives us time to work out quiting these things, but if I never try at all then I am guilty of sitting in that sin and it will keep me out of heaven.

So now smoking will send people to hell??? You have some of the sloppiest theology I have ever seen. You don't know what you are talking about.

Each time I sin God has made a way for me to get forgivness for it, but there must first be repentance of that sin.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Confession of sin does not cleanse our heart from unrighteousness. It cleanses our concsience. It keeps us from coming under condemnation. We do not confess our sins on a daily basis to get resaved or resecure our salvation. Confession of sin is for our benefit, not Gods. When we confess our sins to Jesus, his blood cleanses our conscience of guilt used by the enemy to sidetrack us in our Christian walk. Also we do not confess our sin in order to get to heaven. The only thing that gets us to heaven is faith in Christ alone.

Shiloh

"Secondly, Christians are judged for their works at the judgement seat of Christ. This is not the great white throne judgement. Rather it is where we will receive our rewards for how we lived for Christ. It is NOT a judgement that determines our salvation."

This is very far from the truth:

Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It would seem to me that if on the last judgment we are to be judged by our then it is important enough to make me want be concerned that I will be able to stand true before Christ in that I did the works I was comanded to do.

I don't see why it is so hard to understand that on the judgment day I will be accountable for the sins that either kept in my life and chose to stay in verses denying my life on this earth by not living in sin. My work on this earth that I am called to do is to give my life to Christ instead of keeping my life by living in sin.

What you do not understand is that there are TWO judgements, not one. There is a separate judgement for Christians.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

(2 Corinthians 5:10)

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

(1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

These verses refer to the judgement that Christians will undergo. This is a judgment that meets out our rewards for service as believers. Our works will be tested by fire and that which remains will determine the degree of our reward in heaven.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Revelation 20:11-15)

This is a different judgment altogether. If you read the entire chapter it is a judgement upon all the wicked and the righteous and wicked who died during and after the Millenium. It is not a reference to those of us who received their glorified bodies prior to the Milllenial reign of Christ. The biggest difference is that at the great white throne, the Lamb's book of life is opened, and if your name is not found there, you will be spend eternity separated from God in the lake of fire. If you find yourself at the great white throne, you are in trouble.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There's that word "Works" again. My works are what I do in giving my life to Christ by denying my own life in not living for sin.

Salvation is NOT based soley on works, works are an essential part of my salvation in that it is my obedience to the law of Christ. If I do not follw the law of Christ I will lose my salvation.

Jesus will reward every man according to his works. Salvation is not a reward, so Matt 16:27 is not talking about salvation. Salvation according to Romans 6:23 is a gift. It is a free gift given by God apart from works. Salvation is not based upon works at all. Works are simply the way we demonstrate the authenticity of our profession, nothing more. No one is saying that we don't need works. We are simply saying that you are ignorant where the true importance of works are concerned.

December 23, 2005

There is no way that you automatically overcome the world. Under your process of belief you don't repent of your sins. You are stating that putting all the sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Ephesians 5:3-7 won't keep you out of heaven.

Under your undertanding all I have to do is believe in Christ because he did all the work for me. He made me a new creature by completely renewing my inner man and because I believe in him I have automaitcally overcome the world.

You are using onlu HALF of the scriptures and I'm trying to use ALL of them. Of course those who believe will overcome because if I believe I will actually act upon that belief and stop the sins that will take me to heaven.

1. Yes you do automatically overcome the world. John tells us that faith is the victory that overcomes the world. He does not say that we will overcome someday, or that we will strive to overcome, or hope to overcome. He says that he who is born of God overcomes (present tense) the world. God says we are overcomers, you say we aren't Let God be true and Cardcaptor a LIAR.

2. No it is not my "understanding" that tells me that God has made me a new creature. The Bible says that, but you reject it because you want to work for your salvation and steal the glory from God that belongs to Him. You want the credit for your salvation, instead of trusting in Christ. And yes you have automatically overcome the world IF you have been born again, but since you claim that you have not overcome the world, I guess that means that you are still just a poor old sinner that is trying to foolishly work his way into heaven.

The Bible tells me that we have overcome the world if we are born again. I have that assurance. You choose to reject 1 John 5. Why would I want to be like you? What do you have to offer? You don't even know if you are going to heaven!!! You have not overcome the world and are still struggling with sin in hopes that you might actually be saved some day. You have nothing to offer me. I KNOW that I am saved. I have John 3:15,16; John 5:24; Eph 1:13, 14 and 1 John 5:11-13 that tell me that I have (present tense) eternal life. You are trying to convince me that I don't really know, and that I have to work to make sure that I will go to heaven. The Bible says that I have a eternal life, and that I am sealed already by the Holy Spirit. I will take what God offers and you can have your beggardly, tired, worn out, attempts at earning God's favor. I will rest in His grace.

3. I am not using only half of the Scriptures. I have addressed almost every Scripture that you have brought forth to support your position and have demonstrated how that you are simply relying on a face-value interpretation and your own subjective ideas rather than letting the Scriptures speak for themselves. You have already decided that you have to work for your salvation, and you are trying to get the Bible to fit your sloppy, incorrect theology.

"No one is saying that we don't need works. We are simply saying that you are ignorant where the true importance of works are concerned."

Then let me ask you this, if I do no works at all as a Christian will I still be saved?

You are still missing the point that our works are putting away the sins that will keep us from heaven. If you don't put away these sins you will lose your salvation. So in esence your the acts of repenting of your sins are PART of your slavation. This is repentance.

You don't go to hell or heaven on the basis of what you do, but on the basis of what you are. Even if you did everything perfectly from birth, you will not see the Kingdom without Jesus. People go to Hell because they are sinners, not because they sin. They go to Hell because they are born in sin and such they are separated from God. You go to Hell independent of what you do, therefore you have to be justified independent of what you do.

Justification is the act of God declaring us, on the basis of Christ's finished work on the cross, righteous. We are not made righteous in the absolute sense yet. Righteous is not intrinsic to our nature. It is not something we are yet infused with, but we are legally declared righteous when we put our faith in Christ. God imputes (credits to our account) the righteousness of Christ. This something that is done independent of our works, our deeds, our conduct. Jesus is the sole basis for this according to Paul in Romans 4. The only way to "undo" Justification is to undo Christ's work on the cross.

Works don't get you to heaven and they don't send you to Hell. It is 100% a work of God. If we have to work our way into heaven then God does not get 100% of the credit and glory for salvation. If you get to heaven because you secured it through your works, then you have cause to boast. You can say, Look at how good, and holy I made myself. Salvation ceases to be a gift, and people like you insult God by trying to earn what He offers as a free gift. You are saying that Jesus is not good enough for you. Jesus is not your Savior. YOU have become your own Savior, and have rejected Christ. If you persist, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Your definitions on the thrones made no sense. The basic understanding is that we will all be judged before the throne on judgment day with the bible according to our works. It is that simple.

My definitions make perfect sense to anyone who believes the Bible. Since you reject Christ and his grace, it is no wonder that you don't understand.

Our works are not our proof to the world that we believe in God. They are our obedience to the gospel of Christ which we are commanded to do.

Good works are both the proof to the world that we are saved, and they are our obedient response to what God commands us to do. That is the point that James is making. You are soooo ignorant of Scripture. James makes the point that faith, like love is operative in nature. If you say to someone "I love you," but you do no works of love for that person, what value are your words? Our actions demonstrate to the world that we really do believe what we say. Its called "practicing what we preach." Actions speak louder than words. If our works do not stand as proof of the authenticity of our testimony what pray tell, would the world use to determine if we really DO believe in Jesus or not? What other standard would they use????

Like I said, you have nothing to offer but fear and doubt. You can take your poor, worn out, beggardly attempt to work your way into heaven. I will take biblical Christianity, and Jesus. Those who reject the grace of God have nothing to say to me about the Bible. The stuff you are promoting is heresy.

Catsmeow · December 23, 2005

You can take your poor, worn out, beggardly attempt to work your way into heaven. I will take biblical Christianity, and Jesus. Those who reject the grace of God have nothing to say to me about the Bible.

Dearest brother, Shiloh....you know I have the highest regard for your input and look forward to reading what you share with others, as I benefit greatly from your contributions...but brother, I think I kinda relate to the part about being "poor, worn out and beggardly" ...to be honest with you.

I often feel like such a sinner...so frustrated with myself and the continual conflict within me between my flesh and my spirit. My spirit is totally renewed and made new in Christ...but my soul (my mind) is always doing battle.

My spirit wants to pray and read the bible; my flesh wants to watch the news. My spirit wants to fast; my flesh wants to eat. It's a war zone inside.

I think this fellow sounds a little like me. I'm confused and frustrated at the war in my own members. Life was easy BEFORE I became a believer. After I was given a new spirit and made new in Christ, life got real hard.

I wonder if that's not where he's coming from. I kind feel like the beggar, pleading with God to have mercy on me and be patient with me. I'm so frustrated with my own self...

Does that make any sense?

December 23, 2005

You can take your poor, worn out, beggardly attempt to work your way into heaven. I will take biblical Christianity, and Jesus. Those who reject the grace of God have nothing to say to me about the Bible.

Dearest brother, Shiloh....you know I have the highest regard for your input and look forward to reading what you share with others, as I benefit greatly from your contributions...but brother, I think I kinda relate to the part about being "poor, worn out and beggardly" ...to be honest with you.

I often feel like such a sinner...so frustrated with myself and the continual conflict within me between my flesh and my spirit. My spirit is totally renewed and made new in Christ...but my soul (my mind) is always doing battle.

My spirit wants to pray and read the bible; my flesh wants to watch the news. My spirit wants to fast; my flesh wants to eat. It's a war zone inside.

I think this fellow sounds a little like me. I'm confused and frustrated at the war in my own members. Life was easy BEFORE I became a believer. After I was given a new spirit and made new in Christ, life got real hard.

I wonder if that's not where he's coming from. I kind feel like the beggar, pleading with God to have mercy on me and be patient with me. I'm so frustrated with my own self...

Does that make any sense?

All of us grow weary in the service of the Lord from time to time. That is not what I am referencing this thread. What is beggardly, poor, and worn out where this discussion is concerned, is the age old heresy of works-based salvation which denies the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross.