Faith and Works

[Trust & Obey]

Hi Jake,

I have a suggestion.  To be sure we are all understanding one another, could you define these terms?

faith

works

fruits

justification

righteousness

salvation

saved

It seems to me that at times you have taken a verse that addresses justification or righteousness and applied it to salvation.  But perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

Thanks,

Fiosh

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faith = a gift from God that enables us to believe in Christ (Ephesians 2:8)

works = The visible evidence and demonstration of saving faith

fruits = What God does in a believer as they are in Christ

justification = Our position before God as we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ

righteousness = The state of being right before God. We are not righteous, but Christ is. As we are in Him His righteousness is imputed unto us.

salvation = Being set free from sin here on earth and the promise of heaven in eternity

saved = The state of being delivered from our former self and the consequences of a life of sin. This is almost synonymous with salvation.

[Snow4JC]

Re: Replying to Faith and Works~

I believe that as a Christian we must find Balance between the two of them.

My salvation depends on the balance of both of them. Not only Faith but works too.

Snow4JC

[mrs]

Re: Replying to Faith and Works~

I believe that as a Christian we must find Balance between the two of them.

My salvation depends on the balance of both of them. Not only Faith but works too.

Snow4JC

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And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 11:6

[Guest shiloh357]

Re: Replying to Faith and Works~

I believe that as a Christian we must find Balance between the two of them.

My salvation depends on the balance of both of them. Not only Faith but works too.

Snow4JC

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thhis is wrong. Salvation is depends on Yehsua. Salvation is Yeshua plus zero. It is not Yeshua plus any kind of deed. Works demonstrate salvation, they do not in any way, procure it.

[Smalcald]

Do works help us assure our hearts of a salvation already won for us? Or conversely do the lack of fruits convict us of a lack of faith?

[Trust & Obey]

Do works help us assure our hearts of a salvation already won for us?  Or conversely do the lack of fruits convict us of a lack of faith?

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I would say that the struggle between the flesh and the spirit is a great evidence of salvation. Those who are not saved do not struggle with the flesh as we do.

If you find yourself wanting to do those things that will draw you closer to God and farther from sin then that, too, is a good evidence of salvation.

[Fiosh]

Do works help us assure our hearts of a salvation already won for us?

[nebula]

Nebula wrote:

What does love look like to you? . . .

My Response:

I am going to give my answer first in way in which may would will relate in some way to the relationship between faith and works if we agree that salvation is not by works, but solely by faith. We may naturally ask, What part, then do works play in the life of a Christian believer?

The clearest answer that I am able to find to this in the New Testament is in JAMES 2:14-15 here James says: . . .

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(Edited out the whole thing - just left enough for everyone to know what I was referring to. Who needs to re-read the post? )

Great, Jake. Thank-you!

OK, by looking at what you are saying here - which I completely agree with - and looking back at the debate which started this whole thing -

I am wondering if this is the issue we keep bumping heads over:

It all started with disagreement over the purpose/ observance of "the law."

Now, according to Scripture, the Law is holy and good (Rom. 7:12)

And Psalm 119 is all about the value of the Law - "Oh, how I love Your law!" (Ps 119:97 - among others).

But, as you have shared, you have seen the Law become a trap and a snare for Believers (am I expressing this correctly? Or at least soemthing like that?)

So, as I am evaluating this, I am wondering -

Is the problem the Law?

Or is the problem that people have actually made an idol of the Law?

Now, I know this may sound weird. But I recall a song by Michael Card where he told the story of the bronze serpant the Lord commanded Moses to make so that those who look to it who had been snake bitten would be healed; many years later, however, people began to treat the bronze serpant on a pole as an idol - so the God-fearing king had it destroyed. Here is how his lyrics go for this part:

...In time the brazen serpent became an idol in the land

And they left the living God to worship clay

When they forgot their suffering

Soon true faith had disappeared...

But then check the last line he tagged on:

...So some idolize a brazen cross today

now I know the topic of whether or not people treat the cross as an idol is a debate in and of itself.

I only use it here as a comparison.

For it would seem that the problem with observing the Law is not that there is an error in the Law.

The error - the "mistake people made" if you will - is that the law is looked to not as a guide but as an object of worship.

Would you consider this a correct assessment?

[Jake for Jesus]

Snow4JC wrote:

Re: Replying to Faith and Works~

I believe that as a Christian we must find Balance between the two of them.

My salvation depends on the balance of both of them. Not only Faith but works too.

Shiloh's response:

This is wrong. Salvation is depends on Yehsua.

Salvation is Yeshua plus zero.

It is not Yeshua plus any kind of deed.

Works demonstrate salvation, they do not in any way, procure it.

My response:

To Snow4JC:

This is to let you know that I am in agreement with Shiloh's post.

I do not know if you have read all posts in this discussion. However, if you do read posts from the beginning of this dicussion, you will see several confirmations of this truth in Scripture.

Let us now look at further confirmations of the truth of this statement Shiloh made in reponse to your post, which has yet thus far to be brought out in this discussion.

Open with me, please to EPHESIANS 2:8-9, here the apostle Paul says:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Notice the tense that Paul uses in the passage:"You have been [already] saved."

This proves that it is possible to be saved in this present life and to know it. Salvation is not something for which we have to wait until the next life. We can be saved here and now. How can this present assurance of salvation be received?

It is the gift of God's grace --- that is, God's free, unmerited favor toward the sinful and undeserving. This gift is received through faith --- "not of works, least anyone should boast."

If a man could do anything whatever to earn his salvation, then he could boast of what he himself had done. He would not owe his salvation entirely to God, but would owe it, in part at least to his good works, his own efforts.

But when a man receives salvation as a free gift of God, simply through faith, he has nothing whatever to boast of.

Open with me now, please to ROMANS 3:27-28, here Paul says:

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Turn now with me, please to ROMANS 6:23, here Paul again presents the total contrast between that which we earn by works and that which we receive solely by faith, for he says: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the passage above we just read there is a deliberate contrast between the two words wages and gift. The word wages denotes what we have earned by what we have done. On the other hand, the word translated "gift" --- in Greek 'charisma' -- is directly related to the Greek word for "grace," 'charis.' Hence, the word denotes explicitly a free, unmerited gift of God's grace or favor.

Thus, each of us is confronted with a choice.

On the one hand, we may choose to take wages; this is, the due reward for our works. But because our own works are sinful and unpleasing to God, the wages due to us for them is death --- not merely physical death but also eternal banishment from the presence of God. On the other hand, we may choose to receive by faith God's free gift. This gift is eternal life, and it is in Jesus Christ. When we receive Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, in Him we receive the gift of eternal life.

Finally, please turn with me now to TITUS 3:5, here Paul says:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He [God] saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing could be more clear than this we just read "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us . . . . "

If we desire salvation, it cannot be upon the basis of any works of righteousness which we must have done, but solely upon the basis of God's mercy. Our own works must first be excluded, in order that we may receive God's mercy in salvation.

In the second part of this verse, Paul tells us four positive facts about the way of God's salvation works in our lives: (1) it is a washing --- that is, we are cleansed from all our sin; (2) it is a regeneration --- that is, we are born again, we become children of God; (3) it is a renewing --- that is, we are made new creatures in Christ; (4) it is of the Holy Spirit --- that is, it is work of God's own Spirit within our hearts and lives.

None of this can be the result of our own works, but all of it is received solely through faith in Christ.

If salvation is not by works but is solely by faith, we may naturally ask, What part, then, do works play in the life of the Christian believer?

The clearest answer to this in the New Testament is given by James. I had began to talk about that in the first half of my last post. See my last post, and if you have any questions let me know.

Now I address this to all.

Reading over this thread today, I saw two posts by two others in who had asked a question. Thank you for your patience, as time allows me to do so later I will respond to your posts. The reason I chose to first address this post was for the reason it had been more directly related to the topic of our discussion, and I felt that by doing so it may could serve to help to further our discussion on the relationship between faith and works.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Snow4JC]

Re: Replying to Faith and Works~

I believe that as a Christian we must find Balance between the two of them.

My salvation depends on the balance of both of them. Not only Faith but works too.

Snow4JC

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I should know better then to add my two cents to other's topics.

I understand the fact that my salvation is Free and from Yeshua. However, I do believe one must find a balance between Faith and Works.

There are already too many christians who sit back and do nothing when it comes to helping others.

There is so much more to Yeshua's Ministry.

Snow