The Sower - misunderstood

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Is it not fitting that the main attribute for getting into the Kingdom is OBEDIENCE (Mat.7:21). And is it not fitting that our part in ENTERING the Kingdom is to deny the soul and apply the cross to our will - the altar (Matt.16:24-28)

The kingdom of God/Heaven is the gospel - and it is only through obedience to the commandments of the gospel that a person may enter into the Kingdom of God for this is a spiritual realm.

Luke 4:43  but [Jesus] said to them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose.”

Luke 17:20  Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 
21  nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 
 3:6  What is born of the flesh is flesh; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
3:7  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above. 
3:8  The Spirit breathes where he wills, and thou hear his voice, but know not whence he comes, and whither he goes: so is every one born of the Spirit. 

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@Waggles, @Dan Knight, Thank you for joining in the discussion. I would like to propose a further help to understanding the matter. In Genesis 1:26-28 God laid forth why He made man. Man was to be in the likeness and image of God. He was to eat from the Tree of Life and have the life and nature of God. He was to rule like God would. Life was for the man to be in the image of God and this would enable him to rule like God. Man sinned and ruled badly. Salvation is there to

1. Free a man from the debt of sin and judgment
2. To experience a new and heavenly birth to give the man God's life
3. To reconcile two enemies. The man offended God and was at "enmity" with God
4. To transform a man's fallen character to a character like God
5. To overcome physical death by resurrection

In point #4 the man must cooperate with God by denying himself and carrying his cross. But in ALL these four points of salvation, a man gets them for free. Man's FULL salvation is a GIFT. But this salvation if FOR SOMETHING. It is so that the saved one can become a co-king of the EARTH with Christ. This is the KINGDOM. The Kingdom is that sphere of RULE where the King is God and His WILL is done. According to the prophets Daniel, God will allow the Gentiles to rule up to a certain time. Then He will change government on earth to His "people" (Dan.2:44). In the mean time God is preparing those who will rule with Christ - the Overcomers of the Church (Rev.2.27). And when He is finished raising up these He will restore Israel (Act.15:14-16).

When the Gentiles are subdued, the Overcomers of the Church have proven themselves, and Israel is restored with Jesus living in Jerusalem, the KINGDOM WILL HAVE COME TO EARTH. The parables of Matthew 13 show the DEVELOPMENT of this Kingdom in this age BEFORE it is manifested in the next age. In this age the Kingdom is hidden. It is in MYSTERY. It will develop a certain way. This is the content of Matthew 13. The Book of Matthew ASSUMES the rebirth. It's them is Jesus - Son of Abraham (inheritor of the whole world - Rom.4:13), and Jesus - Son of David (King of Israel) (Matt.1:1). For this Kingdom, God needs reliable CO-kings with Jesus. The book of Matthew shows how to become a co-king FOR THE KINGDOM ON EARTH.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Some good work there as many do get this topic confused. 

There is a point I would like to bring up. First, I agree that Jesus is King over Israel, however He has many other Kingly titles.

The Lord Jesus Christ is King over many realms.

 

King of Glory. (Ps. 24: 7)

King of heaven. (Dan. 4: 37)

King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)

King of Righteousness. (Heb. 7: 1 – 3)

King of Israel. (John 1 : 49)

King of the Jews. (Matt. 2: 2)

King of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)

 

And finally King of Kings..... (Rev. 19: 16)

 

Thus we are not to limit the Lord Jesus Christ to this earth.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

[DPMartin]

16 hours ago, Dan Knight said:

"Enter the Kingdom by works because it is a job". Yes. 

  I remember some years ago I was visiting a church and their evangelist said in a thundering voice," When Jesus returns He better find you at the foot of the cross"!  Why, I said.  He ain't there, and don't bother looking in that tomb, cause He ain't there either!

  Sometimes we'll intentioned folk get stuck on certain issues. 'Grace, and nothing we can do' does not apply to everything.  Works gets a bum rap. Many scriptures proclaim that. One of my favorite is .." and I will show you my faith by works."

 Again, " if you had faith...you would say to this mountain..". I hear so much that we should pray.asking God to.move the mountains in our lived. But He says " you do it."

 

Na, sorry you’re missing it altogether

In some gospels its Kingdom of God in others its Kingdom of Heaven, and last I checked God is in Heaven. Principles are fruits of knowledge, but Heaven is the Presence of God because God is Present in His Heaven. Again, read what Jesus says:

KJV John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hence Jesus says basically He came from Heaven and is still in Heaven while He’s saying it, which is the Life He has and has given to the born again that are fulfilled in the statement:

KJV Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 

Therefore, those who receive His Life receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is of God, of which Jesus says:

Joh 4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 

Hence the indwelling Paul speaks of.

God is God to anything not God, the Word of God is God to anything not God, and the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) is God to anything not God, and the Word of God was made flesh we know as Jesus Christ.

FYI, stay away from the Darby, its original content was merely a professor’s private study of the bible in which when he passed away, his students published and is now the JW’s go to bible. There’s no guarantee of accuracy seeing the professor didn’t have any intention of it being published, if he did it would have been while he was alive.

[DPMartin]

21 hours ago, Dan Knight said:

Jesus is the Way.

When He started His ministry He says that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. He was headed to the Kingdom of Heaven, and worked Hus way there, giving us the example to follow. 

again:

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 
Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 

Joh_3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

what you're not getting is Jesus is the Kindom of Heaven or Kingdom God in the earth at hand. hence within reach.

[Dan Knight]

2 minutes ago, DPMartin said:

Na, sorry you’re missing it altogether

In some gospels its Kingdom of God in others its Kingdom of Heaven, and last I checked God is in Heaven. Principles are fruits of knowledge, but Heaven is the Presence of God because God is Present in His Heaven. Again, read what Jesus says:

KJV John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hence Jesus says basically He came from Heaven and is still in Heaven while He’s saying it, which is the Life He has and has given to the born again that are fulfilled in the statement:

KJV Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 

Therefore, those who receive His Life receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is of God, of which Jesus says:

Joh 4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 

Hence the indwelling Paul speaks of.

God is God to anything not God, the Word of God is God to anything not God, and the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) is God to anything not God, and the Word of God was made flesh we know as Jesus Christ.

FYI, stay away from the Darby, its original content was merely a professor’s private study of the bible in which when he passed away, his students published and is now the JW’s go to bible. There’s no guarantee of accuracy seeing the professor didn’t have any intention of it being published, if he did it would have been while he was alive.

Not your call. So what happens to humans when they die?

[Dan Knight]

1 minute ago, DPMartin said:

again:

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 
Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 

Joh_3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

what you're not getting is Jesus is the Kindom of Heaven or Kingdom God in the earth at hand. hence within reach.

Not your call.

[AdHoc]

23 hours ago, Waggles said:

The kingdom of God/Heaven is the gospel - and it is only through obedience to the commandments of the gospel that a person may enter into the Kingdom of God for this is a spiritual realm.

Luke 4:43  but [Jesus] said to them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose.”

Luke 17:20  Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 
21  nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 
 3:6  What is born of the flesh is flesh; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
3:7  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above. 
3:8  The Spirit breathes where he wills, and thou hear his voice, but know not whence he comes, and whither he goes: so is every one born of the Spirit. 

Consider this short story. A Roman senator buys a slave. The slave is accused of murder, but the senator uses money and influence to wipe away the charges. The slave is free of condemnation and may continue to live. He is SAVED. But he remains the property of the senator. Over the next 20 years the slave serves well and twice he represents the senator well in political intrigues. As the ageing senator writes his will, he names the slave as his HEIR. At the death of the senator the slave INHERITS all the senator owned including his seat in the senate. The slave, having learned well from the senator, serves Rome for another twenty years.

You will agree that the free and gracious SALVATION by the senator is one thing. It was for FREE for the slave and an act of GRACE. And the slave learning politics from the senator, serving the senator well and then serving Rome well is NOT SALVATION. It is STEWARDSHIP.

So also is the doctrine of Jesus. He, at His own cost and loss, bought us free. We were SAVED by GRACE and MERCY. But we are SAVED for a PURPOSE. This purpose is to be able and effectual rulers with Christ when He returns to set up His Kingdom on earth. That is, we are SAVED by GRACE to SERVE as kings in the Kingdom.

One is the "Gospel of GRACE"
One is the "Gospel of the Kingdom"

One is by FAITH and is FREE
One is by proving that you will faithfully MANAGE the Lord's affairs

One removes the DEATH PENALTY
One elevates the man to HEIR

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Some good work there as many do get this topic confused. 

There is a point I would like to bring up. First, I agree that Jesus is King over Israel, however He has many other Kingly titles.

The Lord Jesus Christ is King over many realms.

 

King of Glory. (Ps. 24: 7)

King of heaven. (Dan. 4: 37)

King of the Ages. (1 Tim. 1: 17)

King of Righteousness. (Heb. 7: 1 – 3)

King of Israel. (John 1 : 49)

King of the Jews. (Matt. 2: 2)

King of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)

 

And finally King of Kings..... (Rev. 19: 16)

 

Thus we are not to limit the Lord Jesus Christ to this earth.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

Agreed. No contest.

God bless

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, DPMartin said:

Na, sorry you’re missing it altogether

In some gospels its Kingdom of God in others its Kingdom of Heaven, and last I checked God is in Heaven. Principles are fruits of knowledge, but Heaven is the Presence of God because God is Present in His Heaven. Again, read what Jesus says:

KJV John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hence Jesus says basically He came from Heaven and is still in Heaven while He’s saying it, which is the Life He has and has given to the born again that are fulfilled in the statement:

KJV Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 

Therefore, those who receive His Life receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is of God, of which Jesus says:

Joh 4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 

Hence the indwelling Paul speaks of.

God is God to anything not God, the Word of God is God to anything not God, and the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) is God to anything not God, and the Word of God was made flesh we know as Jesus Christ.

FYI, stay away from the Darby, its original content was merely a professor’s private study of the bible in which when he passed away, his students published and is now the JW’s go to bible. There’s no guarantee of accuracy seeing the professor didn’t have any intention of it being published, if he did it would have been while he was alive.

Thank you for your reply. It was not addressed to me but the reference to Darby kinda includes me. In your argument above you affirmed that the Kingdom was within the Pharisees. Do you really think so? A kingdom is a sphere or area belonging to a resident king who exercises his authority over that area.

The test of any doctrine is to insert it into the text. In Daniel 2 Jehovah predicts His Kingdom. There will be FOUR world powers starting with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon. But these four Gentile powers are consecutive. That is, only when Babylon is defeated does Persia rise and so forth. The final battle is not against Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, but against Rome. Yet the WHOLE effigy collapses and is ground to powder. And the Kingdom of God fills the WHOLE EARTH. How do you reconcile this mighty removal of Gentile rule and the introduction of God's Kingdom in the whole earth with it being inside some infidel Pharisees?

In my argument concerning "within you", I made the statement that the word "entos" equally means "in the midst of you" or "among you". This is not Darby's theory. It is what most Greek language authorities say. I only mentioned that Darby used this meaning because it was not likely that the everlasting Kingdom of Jehovah was WITHIN a group of men who rejected Jesus and planned to kill Him. But that is not all. The matter is complicated even more by Luke 11:15-20

Verse 15 says: "But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils." From Matthew 12:24 we know that it was the Pharisees who said this. Our Lord's answer is that this the unforgivable sin. Is this gross sin compatible with having the Kingdom of Heaven WITHIN you?

Added to this, the Pharisees "sat in Moses' seat" ILLEGALLY! The rulership of Israel was passed from Moses to the House of David by Covenant. How does one have the Kingdom within when you have usurped kingship illegally?

But that is not the end of the matter. Verse 20 says; "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." How is it possible that the Kingdom of God is "UPON" men who are enemies of Christ, and at the same time be "WITHIN" them? I think that Darby, for all his failings, got this one right. The Kingdom was "upon" and "among" all present, not because they carried out His commands, but because the demon's were subject to His commands. The Pharisees were opposed to our Lord's commands - making them rebels.

Finally, it was our Lord Jesus who told what was WITHIN the Pharisee. In Matthew 23 our Lord says; 

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are WITHIN full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

"WITHIN" here is "esothen" meaning "from inside".

 

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Agreed. No contest.

God bless

Great AdHoc,

Now I seem to remember you say that Jesus will rule physically on the earth. Do you mean that will be His seat of power over the angels, and the universe?

Marilyn.