Abandonment (apostasɩ́a)

[missmuffet]

On 9/18/2022 at 6:28 AM, Dennis1209 said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

A falling away from what and who? It is THE sign Paul gives that the seven-year Tribulation is fast approaching, and the revealing of the Antichrist is near. If you hold a pretribulation view, how much closer is the return of our Lord for His bride?

Never in my lifetime did I think I would be witnessing what is happening today, escalating rapidly. To share my thoughts, I want to define the meaning of "a falling away" that is a key to the end times and Tribulation, apostasɩ́a.

The noun apostasɩ́a appears as an apocalyptic reference to a rebellion at the end of the age (2 Thess. 2:3). Two specific theological uses of the verb that are problematic are a warning to avoid having an evil heart that "turns away from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).

A cursory look at today's conditions of our Laodicean churches is telling. Prosperity gospels, false gospels, tickling of ears, watered down Gospels, losing their first love Jesus, ecumenicalism all religions worship the same god, called by different names in various cultures and religions. [i]

The laundry list for rebellion and abandonment is too numerous to list them all. The world generally has lost all moral principles and historical biblical values. Humanism, critical race theory, wokeism, gender identity and pronouns, abortion, cancel culture, and on and on.

The natural extension of the preceding is animal self-identification, and guess what is now happening? [ii] When I suspect things cannot possibly get viler and more ridiculous, along comes something else even more ludicrous.  

We are now witnessing a warmup, the prelude to how evil this abandonment will get as time passes. I believe we are in the time Paul speaks about, just before the Rapture.

 

---

Pope Francis

[ii] Kids “Identifying” as Animals? - AMAC - The Association of Mature American Citizens

We are in the end times and I definitely see this.

2 Timothy 3:1-9

3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

[TheBlade]

On 9/18/2022 at 7:28 AM, Dennis1209 said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

A falling away from what and who? It is THE sign Paul gives that the seven-year Tribulation is fast approaching, and the revealing of the Antichrist is near. If you hold a pretribulation view, how much closer is the return of our Lord for His bride?

Never in my lifetime did I think I would be witnessing what is happening today, escalating rapidly. To share my thoughts, I want to define the meaning of "a falling away" that is a key to the end times and Tribulation, apostasɩ́a.

The noun apostasɩ́a appears as an apocalyptic reference to a rebellion at the end of the age (2 Thess. 2:3). Two specific theological uses of the verb that are problematic are a warning to avoid having an evil heart that "turns away from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).

A cursory look at today's conditions of our Laodicean churches is telling. Prosperity gospels, false gospels, tickling of ears, watered down Gospels, losing their first love Jesus, ecumenicalism all religions worship the same god, called by different names in various cultures and religions. [i]

The laundry list for rebellion and abandonment is too numerous to list them all. The world generally has lost all moral principles and historical biblical values. Humanism, critical race theory, wokeism, gender identity and pronouns, abortion, cancel culture, and on and on.

The natural extension of the preceding is animal self-identification, and guess what is now happening? [ii] When I suspect things cannot possibly get viler and more ridiculous, along comes something else even more ludicrous.  

We are now witnessing a warmup, the prelude to how evil this abandonment will get as time passes. I believe we are in the time Paul speaks about, just before the Rapture.

 

---

Pope Francis

[ii] Kids “Identifying” as Animals? - AMAC - The Association of Mature American Citizens

Hi Dennis bless you. This could be one version for sure but I see it as the word can also mean departure. Its in moments like this our Father by the sweet holy Spirit shines best.  People are coming to Christ like never before, prayers are getting answered so fast now. Yet all the Father has given Christ He will not lose one. I guess its how one was to see. When our view is kinda twisted what do we really see? Oh I don't want to touch this but... How would you or we like it if I say something about you that you do not believe yet it keeps getting said as if you believe it.  Well "prosperity Gospel".. I heard from their mouth "there is no such thing as prosperity gospel". They then give the verses they believe. So we are just quoting what someone else said or we just don't like them so we say it to make fun of them and hurt them since they are not a true Christian? 

Those that say this have no clue how much it hurts. We all  have some doctrine that does not touch salvation. Its our love one for another that the world sees. Me? I have listen to them over the years I just don't agree with all  they teach. I can say the same exact thing for John MacArthur. I don't let my personal belief get stuck in any of this. Not here to derail but I didn't bring it up. 

Now fallen away if we are going with that.. are they like in a battle and just falling to the way side or as it was in Christ day we are just seeing those that do not believe vs those that do? I don't see a great fallen away since I believe the word first used many many yeas ago (Departure) is what this verse can also mean  Yeah that word can also mean departure or fallen away. Then reading what was written before it.. one can see there must come a departure (Caught up or fallen away) then He which holds back the lawless one is taken out of the way.

God the great I am is still on the throne. I remember I believe 2015 over one million came to Christ in one day..it was so beautiful to see. PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS! So are we like our Father or not? Is that image nothing more the a fast glance in the mirror? Or is the great I am, Christ, sweet holy Spirit in us? I need to be out there sharing witnessing. The Church is not ready for Him. So it could be tomorrow or another 30 years still be in line with the word. Faith..see by hear by walk by. See the good first love first no matter how you are treated ..that don't matter its how we love. Its ALL about CHRIST In us

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Hi Dennis bless you. This could be one version for sure but I see it as the word can also mean departure. Its in moments like this our Father by the sweet holy Spirit shines best.  People are coming to Christ like never before, prayers are getting answered so fast now. Yet all the Father has given Christ He will not lose one. I guess its how one was to see. When our view is kinda twisted what do we really see? Oh I don't want to touch this but... How would you or we like it if I say something about you that you do not believe yet it keeps getting said as if you believe it.  Well "prosperity Gospel".. I heard from their mouth "there is no such thing as prosperity gospel". They then give the verses they believe. So we are just quoting what someone else said or we just don't like them so we say it to make fun of them and hurt them since they are not a true Christian? 

Those that say this have no clue how much it hurts. We all  have some doctrine that does not touch salvation. Its our love one for another that the world sees. Me? I have listen to them over the years I just don't agree with all  they teach. I can say the same exact thing for John MacArthur. I don't let my personal belief get stuck in any of this. Not here to derail but I didn't bring it up. 

Now fallen away if we are going with that.. are they like in a battle and just falling to the way side or as it was in Christ day we are just seeing those that do not believe vs those that do? I don't see a great fallen away since I believe the word first used many many yeas ago (Departure) is what this verse can also mean  Yeah that word can also mean departure or fallen away. Then reading what was written before it.. one can see there must come a departure (Caught up or fallen away) then He which holds back the lawless one is taken out of the way.

God the great I am is still on the throne. I remember I believe 2015 over one million came to Christ in one day..it was so beautiful to see. PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS! So are we like our Father or not? Is that image nothing more the a fast glance in the mirror? Or is the great I am, Christ, sweet holy Spirit in us? I need to be out there sharing witnessing. The Church is not ready for Him. So it could be tomorrow or another 30 years still be in line with the word. Faith..see by hear by walk by. See the good first love first no matter how you are treated ..that don't matter its how we love. Its ALL about CHRIST In us

Hey Blade,

You are quite correct, it can mean "departure" and many believe it is referring to the Harpazo. I certainly do not rule that out. In fact, Christian's and Jew's living under Roman rule when the apostles were alive had to think they must be living in THE Tribulation. There certainly are several examples of walking away (apostasy) cited in the N.T. and in Hebrews. However, the church was growing leaps and bounds then, unlike today. That is a reason I think it is a departure from the faith in the True Living God, and the departure from love, the Ten Commandments, all decency, morals, and values. From the time I was growing up and a young adult, I had culture shock. 

I've noticed some prophetic scripture that may contain duel or more meanings that are inclusive. In addition to the one we are discussing; I won't elaborate but I believe this one also has a meaning other than the plain and obvious to consider:  Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I have John MacArthur's study notes and I frequently visit them in Bible study. IMO he is an exceptionally gifted Bible scholar. I can say I agree with his scholarly view about 90% of the time. The other 10% I disagree with or question usually involves key or critical exegesis. As we all should, I study for myself, consult a wide variety of other expert commentary before I form an opinion. I also find it useful to consult what the disciples of the apostle John wrote and believed, as well as the early church fathers (some oppose that phrase). 

[JohnR7]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:28 AM, Dennis1209 said:

A falling away from what and who?

The Greek word is "apostasy" and there is no reason to change it to "falling away" or any other word. God will make it perfectly clear who is and who is not approved - apostate.  Otherwise, people would be able to claim: "we did not know" who was approved of God and who was not approved. My father made that claim all his life. For him happy, joyful people were true Christians if they were sick or healthy. He did not like hellfire and brimstone Christians. 

Sorry, I say we should use the word apostasy and here I am changing it to "approved". Which is accurate, but it does not tell the full story and is just a part of it. Just like falling away is a part of the apostasy. The apostate fall away to show that they are not approved by God. So people will clearly know who is approved and they will be without excuse. 

[Michael37]

2 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

The Greek word is "apostasy" and there is no reason to change it to "falling away" or any other word. God will make it perfectly clear who is and who is not approved - apostate.  Otherwise, people would be able to claim: "we did not know" who was approved of God and who was not approved. My father made that claim all his life. For him happy, joyful people were true Christians if they were sick or healthy. He did not like hellfire and brimstone Christians. 

Sorry, I say we should use the word apostasy and here I am changing it to "approved". Which is accurate, but it does not tell the full story and is just a part of it. Just like falling away is a part of the apostasy. The apostate fall away to show that they are not approved by God. So people will clearly know who is approved and they will be without excuse. 

In history:

Apostacy
Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Encyclopedia.

APOSTACY, Eng. law. A total renunciation of the Christian religion, and differs from heresy. (q.v.) This offence is punished by the statute of 9 and 10 W. III. c. 32. Vide Christianity.

A Law Dictionary, Adapted to the Constitution and Laws of the United States. By John Bouvier. Published 1856.

[JohnR7]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

You are quite correct, it can mean "departure" and many believe it is referring to the Harpazo. I certainly do not rule that out.

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 

 

Use to be that people believed you could not have a tribulation period unless you removed the church. Because the Holy Spirit in the Church was a restraining force to keep the antichrist in check. 

[JohnR7]

5 hours ago, TheBlade said:

I heard from their mouth "there is no such thing as prosperity gospel".

They do not know the meaning of the word: "prosperity". This is a paradox that you have to be poor before you can prosper. You have to let go of the world to draw closer to God. I had a friend who was a real estate agent. He was a very friendly person, he was friends with the world and that caused him a lot of problems. 

James 2:5 "Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?"

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

You are quite correct, it can mean "departure" and many believe it is referring to the Harpazo. I certainly do not rule that out.

Hi Dennis,

The episunagōgē of 2 Thess 2:1 and the harpazō of 1 Thess 4:17 are the same event.

Are you familiar with these main Greek words in 2 Thessalonians 2 ?

παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
Total KJV occurrences: 24

ἐπισυναγωγή
episunagōgē
ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay'
From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): - assembling (gathering) together.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Total KJV occurrences: 20

κατέχω
katechō
kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
Total KJV occurrences: 19

μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Total KJV occurrences: 27

ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

ἄνομος
anomos
an'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked: - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
Total KJV occurrences: 10

 

[Dennis1209]

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Dennis,

The episunagōgē of 2 Thess 2:1 and the harpazō of 1 Thess 4:17 are the same event.

Are you familiar with these main Greek words in 2 Thessalonians 2 ?

παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
Total KJV occurrences: 24

ἐπισυναγωγή
episunagōgē
ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay'
From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): - assembling (gathering) together.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.
Total KJV occurrences: 26

ἀπώλεια
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Total KJV occurrences: 20

κατέχω
katechō
kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
Total KJV occurrences: 19

μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mystery” (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Total KJV occurrences: 27

ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

ἄνομος
anomos
an'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked: - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
Total KJV occurrences: 10

 

Yes, I have several Greek lexicons.

[Michael37]

26 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, I have several Greek lexicons.

You could say apostasy occurs because someone has moved away from a position, whereas an apostle is someone who others, especially God, send forth from a position.