Thoughts On Atheism and Atheists

[Starise]

36 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

We could not function as a singularity. For example, God is light and there is no darkness in him. 1John1:5 God is only good, there is no evil in Him .

This was a bad attempt at humor I guess.

I am a me. How's that? I was once big enough for two people...ok almost. Maybe two midgets..

The more I learn about myself, the more I see that I am wholly inadequate to do anything but use the small things I have been given for whatever reasons because we will answer to Him one day. I have the utmost respect for God. He deserves our best at all times and every bit of praise we can muster.

Like David, I continually ask why He even bothers to consider us, but He does. He still runs after atheists.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:51 AM, Starise said:

I guess I'll kick this off by asking, if you have come into contact with these people? How did the dialog go?

If you won't talk to them at all, why? 

How many here were once atheist and came to the Lord? If so, what caused you to change?

*Raises hand!

I was an atheist, had only been in a church a couple of time in my life. Never saw an opened Bible in my home, never say anyone pray, I was never encouraged to seek spiritual things. I was from the earliest days I can remember, interested in the science, and I was supported in that, when my parents bought me microscopes, telescopes, chemistry sets, and the like. I bought a physics experimentation set on layaway as a child. I had snakes, lizards turtles, chipmunks, aquariums, collected rocks, fossils, insects, sea shell, and had an impressive collection of small animals in jars of alcohol and formaldehyde. I was just a science nerd, it was my thing.

I had no reason that I knew of, to entertain the notion of God as a reality. I mentioned one time to me dad, that I was an atheist. I don't recall why, I don't think that was a topic, it just came up. perhaps in response to something on the television, we were always watching nature shows. My dad was not science minded like I was, and in retrospect, I'd have to say he was pretty science ignorant. When I mentioned that I was an atheist . . .

He got angry and said:

"You have to be a complete void to be an atheist!"

I did not even know what that meant for sure, but it chocked me that he had such a reaction. Now, more than half a century later, I still find his response to be extremely strange. It never occurred to me that our family was anything but atheists, lol. We had no interest in God, and that being the case, what was the problem with me not beleiving in Him? Weird!

In 1968, I was a senior in high school, taking an American Government and Society class. The teacher was conservative, I was not. However, it piqued my interest in politics etc. and eventually bore fruit as I exited my hippy phase a few years later. The teacher, Dr. Roy, was (as far as I know) a Christian, since he mentioned that he taught adult Sunday School at Long Beach Brethren Church.

On the first day (I think) of the American Government and Society class, Dr, Roy informed us of a couple of things. One of them was his grading scale. he graded homework and tests, with a bias toward final exams. he was more interesting in what we learned, than how much work we did. The other thing he told us, was that in as much as in the science classes at our school, they taught the theory of evolution, and that religions is part of what makes up our society, he was going to devote a quarter to teaching a view contrary to evolution. We know refer to that as intelligent design, I don't know if that name existed back then.

I thought "this guy is a joke!", and I was a thorn in his side that quarter. Problem is, that as smart as I thought I was, and as science minded as I was, I was surprised to learn that I did not seem to be able to pose objections that he could not make reasonable responses to. That should not have bothered me as much as it did, after all, I was just a kid, and lacked experience as a debater or one having to defend science. After all, everyone knew science was true!

That quarter ended, as did the rest of the school year, and I graduated in 1969. I had a lot of pride though, and I was not going to let it go. Dr. Roy had made what SOUNDED like a good case for a creator, but I was sure not convinced. This was a public school, and Dr. Roy was not teaching Christianity, he was just making a case for a creator, instead of a cosmology and  biology based upon natural causes.

I left school, still an Atheist, in fact, perhaps more so than I had been, as I was determined to prove myself right, and religious people like Dr. Roy wrong! That determination made me study, study harder than I had in school. School was something I was compelled to do. Defending science, was now my life's' mission, lol.

I consumed relevant part of books, was in the library a lot. I was looking at related topics about biology, paleontology, cosmology, astronomy, physics, etc, etc, and was taking some classes in community college. So, I was reading only the science stuff, not the Bible, not theology, after all, I know those people were all about superstition and wishful thinking, not rational and clear minded like myself.

The problem was, the more I got into the science (especially scientific journals, and university level book - not 'popular' science) the more hole I began to see, the more questions were raised, and the more frequent I could see the biases of what the science authors believed. It was not going well, and it was very disturbing to me. Eventually I realized, that what I had thought was science, was just a religion (functionally) which used experiments and technology to support what it supposed was true.

I was beginning to see the prejudices, and a certain lack of objectivity, and worse, I recognized that had been true about me also. With that, I suspended my atheism as being almost anti-intellectual, and I guess I was more open minded then, probably what we could call an agnostic. Had I applied that label to myself, and really thought about what it means, I would have realized that agnostic, is literally another word of ignoramus, lol. one who does not know!

Still, I WANTED to know. I suppose I had an emotional need to know, and that emotion could have prejudiced me, it certainly motivated me. At this point, I was no longer buying into my former beliefs about evolution, the age of the universe and life, and similar things as settled science, I was not free to take things based on evidence, not on anyone's consensus. I did not HAVE to believe scientists as a matter of tribal loyalty, but I was certainly not accepting religious people as having the answers either.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Part two, continuing from above!

I probably had more questions now. Previously I had answers. I was the one who knew it all. I knew there was not God. In hindsight, I realize what a stupid thing that was to think. To knew that there is no God, would require omniscience, something that is a trait of God, not of people. I knew the universe was old, I know the earth was old. I knew that life arose from non life, I know life evolved over millions of years, etc. I was a know-it-all!

As an agnostic. one who does not know it all, i realized that I knew little to almost nothing. Oddly, as an agnostic, and ignoramus, I was wiser than I had been as an atheist, when I was so full of myself. That had a positive effect though, now I had a measure of humility, which had been lacking before.

Now then, I still had immense curiosity, I wanted to know. Being and agnostic as not as satisfying as being an Atheist had been. Now what I had in abundance, was questions!

Now, just because I had come to realize that many scientists had agendas and prejudices, and even a sort or religious zeal, I also realized that science was not the problem. Science, is just a word that means knowledge. There is nothing wrong with knowledge. I think the "scientific method" is mostly pretty sound. It is just often ignored when it should not be, and it has limitations. First it does not apply to everything, not all truth can be evaluated with it. The fact is, that one cannot even use the scientific method, to discover if the scientific method is valid. Science, as we generally use the term, is about learning and investigating things in that physical world, and primarily in real time. It is not the best or only method for philosophical questions. We often depend on logic to reason things out, but logic itself, is in the realm of philosophy, not physical science.

Historical discovery (discover of things about history) has it's own methods. "Science" sometimes enters there, but it is an aid, not the center of historical method.

Things about gods, angels, demons, ghosts and the like, don't fall under the scrutiny of "science". These things are under metaphysics, science cannot prove them, test them, or refute them, UNLESS they invade the physical universe.

So, where did all of this leave me as an agnostic? It left me curious, aware of my limitations and the limitations of all people, but . . . 

it did not leave me as un unbeliever in things science, I was just more cautious now. I should have noticed much sooner, that scientists across time, have disagree with each other. They disagree between branches of science, they disagree among themselves within a branch of science. That is not a bad thing, it drives discussion and investigation, if fuels discovery, and advances happen. 

When I was an Atheist, there was one thing that annoyed me . . . that was that science was always in flux. The implication was then, that if scientists understood the world one way in 1700, a new way in 1800, and yet another way in the late 1900s, what was going to be different in the later centuries. The trend was unnerving.

mean while, I was beginning to notice, that what some (annoying Christians in particular) seems to be able to believe the same things they did about 2000 years earlier, and had not be force to back peddle. I was tempted to think that they were stuck in their superstitions, but was beginning to realize, that their superstitions had not been disproven, though I believed by faith, that they were nonsense. In fact, as I was looking into some of these things, I was noticing that non theology fields, were removing some of the objections to Christianity. History, archaeology, etc. were beginning to validate things those people believed.

Had I been focusing on that, I might have come around sooner, but I was still focusing on science. I started having correspondences with some notable scientists. I will recall one in particular, since he has a large impact on my thinking.

Dr.  Willard Libby. He was a professor at a local university, UCLA. He was instrumental in developing the Radi0 Carbon dating method. I had a question or two for him, and he graciously responded. In his letter to me, he informed me that there were problems with the method as they first used it. It was based on bad information, based on an assumption that turned out not to be true. When I was reading between the line of what he said to me, I realized that he was saying that the method works because the introduce mathematical factors into the results to compensate for the flaws, and make  them agree with other dating methods.

I had previously figured out that this was not uncommon in matters of dating. While I don't think that scientists were consciously conspiring to fake the results and make everything agree, it had already become obvious to me, that functionally, this was happening, on branch depends on another branch to tell them how old something is, then they use that assumption, to calibrate new methods. It is more than I care to go into here, as it is not the topic, but it is part of how I came to question my previous beliefs. In fact, I began to see the universe, or at least our solar system, as much younger than I had, like maybe in the order of tens of thousands of year, not millions. That, as a science minded agnostic, not as a religious person.

Long story shore, it was the quest to disprove theists by using science, that ultimately led to me becoming a theist.

Now that is not how I came to the Lord. Scientific inquiry did not reveal the Jesus was the Messiah of the Jew, God in human flesh and all of that, but it is how I become open to the possibility. I also had some ah ha moments, just observing nature, some things stuck me as patently absurd to have evolved unguided by intelligence.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

ike David, I continually ask why He even bothers to consider us, but He does. He still runs after atheists.

3When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
4what is man that you are mindful of him,
and the son of man that you care for him?

Psalm 8

[Sower]

20 hours ago, Starise said:

I guess I'll kick this off by asking, if you have come into contact with these people? How did the dialog go?

If you won't talk to them at all, why? 

How many here were once atheist and came to the Lord? If so, what caused you to change?

I have known a few in my life, but three I became friends with. I grew up in the RCC and have always believed in God, yet not 'knowing' God. Worked with one atheist  named Pete about fifty five years ago who was already convinced there was no God and didn't care to discuss any religious foolishness as it was a waste of time, so lets talk about women and let me share some new home grown weed. He would only listen to me if I had proof of this so called *#*+* God. I was a catholic, lost, and could only talk about Christianity with my limited understanding, and had very little scripture (the word) to share. He was a novelty, a dedicated atheist,  and there wasn't any strong desire to share any light/truth I didn't have. Yet.

Two others were high school friends, one of which quit high school with me our last year, joined the Marines together, went to Nam, came back and he stayed on the west coast, Calif, I came back to Texas. Thirty five years later he came back home with his wife. I was now a Christian and shared the gospel. Said he was an atheist, doesn't believe in that dung. Nothing penetrated his understanding. He smiled at my childlike foolishness. Peed me off more than once. I learned it was the word and not my earnestness that would 'change' his thinking. But the god of this world had already blinded him. It became a sore spot in our relationship should I bring it up.

I backed off and that unnerved him to begin bringing up the subject himself, and apologizing for his anger. This lasted many years, to no avail. His health deteriorated, as he was exposed to Agent orange chemicals in the Nam  heavily, and then required oxygen as his lungs were deteriorating for years. He softened up greatly in the conversations about God, even friendly, but I felt he was just tolerating me for our friendship. He had no friends anymore. His lungs began to fail and he finally was on his death bed, had a talk and I did not push the gospel, only ask him to think about what I had shared. He said he would. He died later that day.

Another friend from high school has always been atheist and would not tolerate any witnessing or 'preaching', no matter how subtle. He was into science and needed proof of what he believed. He got into Quantum Physics and science. About a year ago he called me up and said he believed in God now. He finally found his 'proof' of something beyond matter. He came across some U-Tube vids of those who had experienced 'NDE', near-death experiences. He was amazed there were so many people who "died' and witnessed something 'super-natural' then came back. To him this was his proof. We had many talks, but I sense his enthusiasm is only a parting phase. He has received the gospel, and now he is in the Lord's hands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chesed]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:51 AM, Starise said:

I guess I'll kick this off by asking, if you have come into contact with these people? How did the dialog go?

If you won't talk to them at all, why? 

How many here were once atheist and came to the Lord? If so, what caused you to change?

My dad was an atheist hard core right up to His EXIT from this world. I was an agnostic, never able to completely deny any existence of God. My dad wanted me committed when he found out I came to faith...but my previous involvements with drugs, the occult, gambling and sexual perversions etc., was fine with him, because I was doing 'what I wanted to do'.

Edited October 2, 2022 by chesed

[Starise]

7 hours ago, Sower said:

I have known a few in my life, but three I became friends with. I grew up in the RCC and have always believed in God, yet not 'knowing' God. Worked with one atheist  named Pete about fifty five years ago who was already convinced there was no God and didn't care to discuss any religious foolishness as it was a waste of time, so lets talk about women and let me share some new home grown weed. He would only listen to me if I had proof of this so called *#*+* God. I was a catholic, lost, and could only talk about Christianity with my limited understanding, and had very little scripture (the word) to share. He was a novelty, a dedicated atheist,  and there wasn't any strong desire to share any light/truth I didn't have. Yet.

Two others were high school friends, one of which quit high school with me our last year, joined the Marines together, went to Nam, came back and he stayed on the west coast, Calif, I came back to Texas. Thirty five years later he came back home with his wife. I was now a Christian and shared the gospel. Said he was an atheist, doesn't believe in that dung. Nothing penetrated his understanding. He smiled at my childlike foolishness. Peed me off more than once. I learned it was the word and not my earnestness that would 'change' his thinking. But the god of this world had already blinded him. It became a sore spot in our relationship should I bring it up.

I backed off and that unnerved him to begin bringing up the subject himself, and apologizing for his anger. This lasted many years, to no avail. His health deteriorated, as he was exposed to Agent orange chemicals in the Nam  heavily, and then required oxygen as his lungs were deteriorating for years. He softened up greatly in the conversations about God, even friendly, but I felt he was just tolerating me for our friendship. He had no friends anymore. His lungs began to fail and he finally was on his death bed, had a talk and I did not push the gospel, only ask him to think about what I had shared. He said he would. He died later that day.

Another friend from high school has always been atheist and would not tolerate any witnessing or 'preaching', no matter how subtle. He was into science and needed proof of what he believed. He got into Quantum Physics and science. About a year ago he called me up and said he believed in God now. He finally found his 'proof' of something beyond matter. He came across some U-Tube vids of those who had experienced 'NDE', near-death experiences. He was amazed there were so many people who "died' and witnessed something 'super-natural' then came back. To him this was his proof. We had many talks, but I sense his enthusiasm is only a parting phase. He has received the gospel, and now he is in the Lord's hands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your friends remind me of several people I've worked with over the years. 

No interest. ZERO interest in God. I believe many of these people consider themselves good people. When I think back to my life I remember becoming a believer very young, but for the longest time I was ashamed of it. Peer pressure and I knew what the outcome would be if I mentioned it. Even young believers need some time to process what happened and decide to do what is required. Not that the Lord has ever required anything extremely difficult of me. Eventually though there was a parting phase, where I had no interest in doing what they were doing. They would go out and get drunk. I wanted no parts of any of that. I began to see the emptiness of a life like that. I didn't really need to say anything to anyone. It was just apparent. Sure some seen it as a weakness like I needed a 'crutch'. 

I wish people could wake up. I don't believe it's going to be a whole lot longer.

[Starise]

6 hours ago, chesed said:

My dad was an atheist hard core right up to His EXIT from this world. I was an agnostic, never able to completely deny any existence of God. My dad wanted me committed when he found out I came to faith...but my previous involvements with drugs, the occult, gambling and sexual perversions etc., was fine with him, because I was doing 'what I wanted to do'.

This is truly sad, yet truly wonderful news you came to the Lord!

[JohnR7]

19 hours ago, Starise said:

This was a bad attempt at humor I guess.

I am a me. How's that? I was once big enough for two people...ok almost. Maybe two midgets..

The more I learn about myself, the more I see that I am wholly inadequate to do anything but use the small things I have been given for whatever reasons because we will answer to Him one day. I have the utmost respect for God. He deserves our best at all times and every bit of praise we can muster.

Like David, I continually ask why He even bothers to consider us, but He does. He still runs after atheists.

When I was in the Philippines I was glad that they did not charge me for two tickets on the transportation because I took up two seats. 

I have problems with God that we have to suffer as much as we do. But Jesus suffered in every way as we do. So of course there are no problems wanting to follow Him and His teachings. I do not think God is mad at us. He always encourages me to do what is good, right and true for my own sake and my own benefit. 

[JohnR7]

7 hours ago, Starise said:

I wish people could wake up. I don't believe it's going to be a whole lot longer.

Depends on what year the Church began when Peter preached his sermon in the upper room on the day of Pentecost. I think 2029 could be the 2,000 year anniversary of the church. Or is it a birthday? Either way, we should buy a cake and celebrate. 

Proverbs 24:33 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, 34 and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and need like a bandit.