Jayne Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,824 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,815 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Not of the World said: Yes, please. Thank you. If being a drunkard sends you to hell, then stopping drinking takes you to heaven, right? Wrong. The ONLY thing that sends a person to hell is unbelief. So what is Paul talking about? He is talking to the church at Corinth. A church that is in a HOT, HOT, HOT MESS. Read the whole book and it is shocking that this is even a church. But instead of disbanding them, Paul instructs them on how to change their ways. Look and see who is talking TO. Start at the beginning of chapter 6 and read the whole thing. He is trying to shame [verse 5] those Christians suing other Christians in court. They claim other Christians have wronged them and cheated them. They are taking their lawsuits to unsaved Greeks when they should be settling this among believers and letting the church sort things out. Paul tells them that they are ignoring the fact that THEY ARE the ones doing the cheating, defrauding, and wronging of others. They seemingly have ignored the fact of their own ill dealings..... or else just don't care. Suing is bringing financial gain to them. He tells them that they are in the same boat as other people that don't care. Who are these people? They are the "unrighteous". That means - the unsaved. Those not born again. How do they live? Like they don't care - both homosexual and heterosexual sinners, idolaters, drunkards, thieves, and liars. These sins are not what is sending them to hell. Their "unrighteousness" is. It's their unbelief. And - because of this unbelief, they revel in their sin. They have no intention to change. No intention to repent. Paul is telling these Christians in Corinth that they are behaving as the unsaved do - just doing whatever they want as long as it makes them happy and satisfied. And they either need to stop it or examine themselves to see if they are saved or not. These people are like many Christians. Living fat and happy and believing that their sins are minor and don't stink. Paul says they are in the same boat as gay people, and heterosexual people who are sexually impure, drunkards, and liars. To have heard this from Paul SHOULD have shamed them. They are living shamefully. Paul even tells them that THEY used to live exactly like this. It seems they may have repented of these things, but just jumped on another sin to revel in. Being an alcoholic does not send you to hell. God alone knows the person's heart. Some get drunk with no regrets - only seeking out the next drink and next party. Some are in bondage and grieve over their sin but cannot shake it without help. God knows the difference. Edited October 20, 2022 by Jayne 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not of the World Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 1.84 Reputation: 456 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/12/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 20, 2022 21 minutes ago, Jayne said: If being a drunkard sends you to hell, then stopping drinking takes you to heaven, right? Wrong. The ONLY thing that sends a person to hell is unbelief. So what is Paul talking about? He is talking to the church at Corinth. A church that is in a HOT, HOT, HOT MESS. Read the whole book and it is shocking that this is even a church. But instead of disbanding them, Paul instructs them on how to change their ways. Look and see who is talking TO. Start at the beginning of chapter 6 and read the whole thing. He is trying to shame [verse 5] those Christians suing other Christians in court. They claim other Christians have wronged them and cheated them. They are taking their lawsuits to unsaved Greeks when they should be settling this among believers and letting the church sort things out. Paul tells them that they are ignoring the fact that THEY ARE the ones doing the cheating, defrauding, and wronging of others. They seemingly have ignored the fact of their own ill dealings..... or else just don't care. Suing is bringing financial gain to them. He tells them that they are in the same boat as other people that don't care. Who are these people? They are the "unrighteous". That means - the unsaved. Those not born again. How do they live? Like they don't care - both homosexual and heterosexual sinners, idolaters, drunkards, thieves, and liars. These sins are not what is sending them to hell. Their "unrighteousness" is. It's their unbelief. And - because of this unbelief, they revel in their sin. They have no intention to change. No intention to repent. Paul is telling these Christians in Corinth that they are behaving as the unsaved do - just doing whatever they want as long as it makes them happy and satisfied. And they either need to stop it or examine themselves to see if they are saved or not. These people are like many Christians. Living fat and happy and believing that their sins are minor and don't stink. Paul says they are in the same boat as gay people, and heterosexual people who are sexually impure, drunkards, and liars. To have heard this from Paul SHOULD have shamed them. They are living shamefully. Paul even tells them that THEY used to live exactly like this. It seems they may have repented of these things, but just jumped on another sin to revel in. Being an alcoholic does not send you to hell. God alone knows the person's heart. Some get drunk with no regrets - only seeking out the next drink and next party. Some are in bondage and grieve over their sin but cannot shake it without help. God knows the difference. Wow what an amazing post! Thank you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,245 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,971 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2022 10 hours ago, Not of the World said: It seems not. Do they go to Hell? 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 English Standard Version 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. I think it would depend on what they do when they are drinking. There is a difference in an alcoholic and a drunkards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not of the World Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 1.84 Reputation: 456 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/12/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 20, 2022 14 minutes ago, other one said: There is a difference in an alcoholic and a drunkards. What is the difference, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,245 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,971 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2022 Just now, Not of the World said: What is the difference, please? An alcoholic is a person who is basically genetically handles alcohol differently than most people. Their bodies process alcohol differently and it creates brain chemicals similiar to heron. They crave it and can't do without it without physical and mental suffering. They don't necessarily do bad things or go crazy when they drink. Some of us just get sleepy. However a drunk drinks to alter his/her mental state and most usually turns into a different person. Some violent, some downright evil. I know both kinds and do not associate with drunks. However I know some alcoholics that are decent people and even love the lord. They remain Christians even when drinking though they may make some decisions that are not in their best interest. I guess what I mean is they may well not commit any sins during that time. I've worked with a couple of functional alcoholics that you would never know they drink because they taper off before they get really drunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 349 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,506 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,405 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Not of the World said: Yes, please. Thank you. Okay, but first, my disclaimer. There are many views on this, and my thoughts are subject to change with more study and better understanding. We all know the story about the morality of Sodom and Gomorrah and the judgment. They were so obsessed, evil, and blinded that they still wanted relations with the two angels. Was it the moral thing (righteous) for Lot to offer his two daughters in exchange for the two men? Or was it the culture and tradition of the time? As the Bible outlines, Abraham pleaded with the Lord and went from fifty to ten. And still, ten righteous people could not be found. We are not privy to the exact population of the area that was rained on with fire and brimstone, but it had to be very populated. Lot, his wife, two daughters, and their husbands were six, so four other righteous people could not be identified. Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Because Abraham interceded for Lot and his family, the Lord showed Grace and mercy toward Lot. It appears from the verse above Lot must have been justified as righteous. Lot lived among the Sodomites; he may have even been a government official. Based on the numbers and if Lot and his family were justified and declared righteous, they were excused from the sins that caused judgment. There are no indications that Lot witnessed for the Lord or won any souls and converts, and it appears Lot had saving faith and was a backslider. Depending on a person’s theological view, if the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven are synonymous or not. I prefer that they are two distinct kingdoms, and I’ll omit my thoughts between them for brevity. I suspect “the kingdom of Heaven” is when Heaven comes to earth for the millennium when Christ rules and reigns. Not everyone will rule over a city(s) or even enter the Kingdom of God (the parable of the talents). Moses was allowed to view the promised land from a distance but not allowed to enter it. Because of his one disobedient act, I assume. Free will acts and actions are keywords. I see the same for the kingdom of Heaven for those that have saving faith but backslide and continue in sexual immorality, worshiping money, adultery, homosexuality, alcoholism, etc. If a person has genuine saving faith, they sincerely ask the Lord for eternal life, have faith, believe Jesus is the Son of God, and put their trust and faith in Him and Him alone. They and we are given eternal life and not to be revoked. To start with, if it is not eternal, it is not everlasting to begin. I think we “inherit” the kingdom of Heaven (millennium) by confessing and sincerely repenting the abovementioned sins. Otherwise, we may view the kingdom from a distance as Moses did the promised land, not allowed to enter or participate in the Jewish Kingdom. The Prodigal son realized his squandering (eating, drinking, and being merry) and errors of his ways. He humbled himself and repented so he could “live” and not die. He returned to his father expecting only to be a servant on the outside. His father was so happy he returned to the fold; he was restored to his family and privileges. However, he was not again entitled to a future inheritance. The remainder would be distributed between his father’s other sons, who remained loyal, working and involved in their father’s business, and in fellowship with their father. Perhaps someone will say the preceding is a sexist misogynist view also? Anyone? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,115 Content Per Day: 9.69 Reputation: 13,619 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Online Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) My understanding of the phrase " won't inherit the kingdom of heaven" is not that they won't BE in the kingdom if they are believers. Maybe I'm wrong. A believer who isn't intent to quit bad habits won't inherit the kingdom of heaven. They say we shouldn't make the posts about ourselves, but I will say that as a believer it has taken a long time for me to come around on some things, even though I had good intentions to be holy and God knew my heart was a heart for Him. Obviously a NON- Believer, no matter whether they quit drinking or not won't BE in the kingdom. The kingdom is a relationship AND a location in Christ. We loose our salt and light in the world if we get all caught up in these things. Since a man is the sum of his parts, with some who say a man has three parts, while others believe man is two parts, a soul and a body....still others say man is not anything but a whole being. Without going into all of that, I'll just say that with some sins it's our body that wanted the alcohol or the drugs or the porn while our soul protested it. This IN NO WAY makes excuses for bad behavior. This is just a reason for some of it as I see it. We are told to keep our entire being under subjection, to whip it into shape . That takes effort to stay away from those things that encourage it. It's easy to tell someone else how they can kick booze when we have never been through it and it's easier for some to quit than others. My relationship with it has never been more than a beer or glass of wine here and there. I would keep a few beers in the fridge just for hot days because, believe it or not, a beer is a decent pain killer for sore muscles at the end of a long tedious physically demanding day and I had a dedicated wine cooler to keep the stuff in. The Lord has been working on me even there. The last time I was sore from over working my muscles, I drank a beer. I had the worst headache I have had in a long time. Never happened before but I thought maybe God was trying to tell me to just take a tylenol instead. TBH now I hesitate to drink one even for that. My wine cooler has slowly been taken over by healthy waters and other healthy drinks. I am controlling my blood sugar without meds and am at a good place, but I am borderline diabetic, so the red wine had to be relegated so far back I forgot it ever existed. I'm afraid to drink the few reds I have left for concern my blood sugar will go up again. The last bottle of white I opened, I drank one glass and the bottle sat in the fridge for a month before I dumped it....it's as if I lost the desire to even enjoy a glass of alcohol. Others may have a different tale to tell, because I KNOW it's a real struggle for some people. Trust me though, if you give it to the Lord and do your best I sincerely believe the desire will eventually leave you completely. Now for anyone who isn't compelled to drink huge quantities of alcohol due to an addiction and can drink one once a month at a restaurant, I really see no harm in it, but that's the thing, a person who IS addicted will convince themselves they aren't. Drinking to excess is one of those things that come along with hanging with certain people you know. If you're getting those calls- " Hey wanna go to the bar?" This might be one of those connections you have to let go of. Nothing worse that two drunks encouraging one another. And they drink IN SOME CHURCHES at gatherings. Not the kind of a church I would attend since it passes that lifestyle off as normal. Where does it stop then? Stopping alcohol and drugs takes a change from the inside out to stay clean. Sure unsaved people have quit, but they often have to replace it with something else worse. The danger occurs when we tell ourselves WE SURE ARE DOING WELL...WE....WE...I AM DOING THIS WELL. For the true believer GOD does it or it doesn't happen for many people. Just when we think "WE" made it happen is when we fall off the proverbial apple cart once again. I don't believe any of us can take pride in ourselves for a transformation we ask the Lord to make. Edited October 20, 2022 by Starise 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not of the World Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 1.84 Reputation: 456 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/12/2022 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said: , if the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven are synonymous or not. I prefer that they are two distinct kingdoms, That's fascinating! I would love to hear more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-regenerated Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 302 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 104 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/05/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2022 I was a problem drinker until very recently. I know I am saved and I was saved many years ago but continued to drink because I couldn't seem to stop. So, my take on it is based on what Paul said "such were some of you". That means, the saved people in the church he was writing to had given up drinking. But even if it means some continue to drink, I don't believe you can lose your salvation once you have got it. But I think eventually a person will stop drinking because God is working their sanctification and I know I used to feel miserable when I drank because I knew it was sin, and I don't WANT to sin. I hated it with all my guts. God isn't a tyrant. He knows everything! He wouldn't save a person who He knows will continue to drink in the future. This goes for all sins, not just drink. And I believe that if we desire to change because we really do not want to sin anymore, we can do it with God's help in sanctification. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sower Posted October 20, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 14 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,267 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,886 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/09/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2022 Do actively drinking alcoholics sinning sinners go to Heaven? Would the chiefest of sinners have a chance...? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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