Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 14

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revlelation 19

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

I already explained this. They that are Christs at His coming. He comes for the Church and the Church is raptured. He comes for the 144,000 first fruits as they are Christs at His coming. He comes for the second harvest at the 6th seal as they are at that point Christs at His coming.

In Revelation 14 we can easily see that Christ came for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. So, Christ came to the earth, and it WAS NOT at the end of the trumpets, the second advent.

Rev 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

What this amounts to is that anytime there is a coming of Jesus Christ you claim that is at the second advent. But that is incorrect. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs before the wrath not at the end of the wrath of God like you think. The gathering occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect. The scriptures below show the gathering is at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Looking at 1 Corinthians 15 we can see that the dead and the living righteous receive their glorified bodies at the same time, in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

However, in 1 Thes 4 we see that the dead are raised before the living. We also see that Jesus will bring those which sleep with Him. 

1 Thessalonians 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I see nothing that proves these two events, the dead in Christ rising, and then the alive believers rising afterward happen at the same time. Why would they both not be raised in the twinkling of an eye like those in 1 Corinthians 15. That in itself proves that 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are not the same coming of Jesus.

The reason I believe that the dead in Christ and the alive Church are caught at different times is because of the harvests. The barley harvest is the dead in Christ and that would occur at Passover. The wheat harvest would be the alive Church and that happens at Pentecost. The priest would present the barley cake and the wheat cake on Pentecost. Therefore, I don't think that the events will happen on the same day. Otherwise, why not both events happening in the twinkling of an eye.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the Pretribulation Rapture, part of Israel will have its eyes opened.

They will realize that they have missed the harvest.

Jeremiah 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God turns His attention to Israel, and it is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that will be raptured from the earth. The 144,000 are first fruits of the harvest. They will be raptured at the fall fruit harvest, which happen on the Feast of Trumpets, where the last trump is blown by the way.

The harvest will take place at the 6th seal just before the wrath of God. We can see the harvest in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

There are two brides that will attend the marriage supper. Jacob had two brides Leah and Rachel. Rachel was the chosen bride and Jacob had to work 7 more years for her. 

 

There will be no question when this happens. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man. I'm thinking that Jesus will be visible on the clouds as the kings of the earth will be in caves and underground bunkers.

Revelation 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

I think it will be the Church. They are the ones in Christ.

I don't think I said resurrection, if I did, I meant rapture.

It will occur sometime in the 1st 4 seals. You can figure that out from Revelation 14.

 

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

No. That's what you are incorrectly concluding. That's not what the scriptures say.

They that are Christs at His coming. He comes before the seals are opened for His Church because they are Christs at His coming.

Then part of Israel has its blindness removed. They become Christians. Jesus comes at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. There is a rapture because they are now Christs at His coming.

Well these are two different events. 1 Thessalonians 4 is when Jesus comes for the Church. 2 Thessalonians is not the same thing. 2 Thes 2 is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the 6th seal.

The 1st resurrection is the resurrection of life. There is more than one harvest so obviously the 1st resurrection to life can happen to different harvests.

 

Do you really think anyone could provide a reasonable response to such a very long post?  Please, already.  And as for all of the verses you quoted, none of them describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  So just accept that fact.

If there were going to be a glorified trip to heaven, there would be at least one verse that would describe it.  And in ALL of the verses about resurrection and the "gathering" or being "caught up together", NONE of them mention Jesus taking them to heaven.

So there is zero evidence for a "rapture" that includes Jesus taking believers to heaven after receiving a glorified body.

And you have not provided any evidence for multiple resurrections.  You can only speculate that there are, by trying to force the Second Advent in various passages to represent different resurrections.

But again, the Bible is quite clear that there will be just ONE resurrection, which will be for "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) and it will occur "WHEN He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) which is a reference to the Second Advent, just as 2 Thess 2:1 is.

The Bible speaks of resurrection ONLY in the singular, both for the saved and for the unsaved.  And they are 1,000 years apart, as Rev 20:5 very plainly says.

[Diaste]

On 10/29/2022 at 4:53 PM, Vine Abider said:

I've read a couple interesting books lately, putting forth the idea of more than just one rapture.  This thought seems to reconcile verses  appearing to show a post-trib rapture, while other verses  appear to show a pre-trib one.  One book I read, "Worthy to Escape," referred to these two raptures as "first fruit" and "harvest," going off the Old Testament practices depicted in a number of passages.  That is, some fruit ripened earlier, and was taken directly into the temple.  However, the harvest fruit required the full summer's heat to ripen. 

Has this viewpoint been discussed on here before and is there merit to it?

11-21-22 Addendum  My purpose when starting this thread almost a month ago was this:  Concerning the so-called rapture, there are many who subscribe to pretrib, many who subscribe to midtrib, and many who subscribe to posttrib.  I've heard these groups go around & round for decades.  Here I want to present the idea that perhaps the word shows there are elements of all these in scripture, so then ALL these events might be true.  This is not a core tenet of the faith, just an interesting discussion we're having with the family.  Could the idea of multiple raptures be wrong?  Sure, but so could certain other views.  Let's have dialog and see if we learn anything . . .

If there are multiple raptures then there also must be multiple other events that are said to occur with the rapture or at the same time as the rapture.  So no, there are not multiple raptures. 

This is just another stab at unity and diversity or, the church universal. 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

How come there are no verses at all about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?

And how come 1 Cor 15:23 tells us specifically WHEN the singular resurrection occurs, which is "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent.

Also, 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing.

"The dead in Christ rise first at the coming of Jesus. Then Jesus comes again for the alive Church. At that point part of the Jews eyes are opened as the fullness of the Gentiles has come. "

Please prove from Scripture that the dead are resurrected at one point in time and the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of the eye" at another point.

Rather, 1 Thess 4 is very clear that the living believers will be "caught up TOGETHER with the ones from heaven" .  So this proves that both the dead saints from heaven and the living believers from earth all receive their glorified bodies at the SAME EVENT.

"Then Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. After that Jesus returns for this harvest, his second bride, the chosen bride at the 6th seal."

Please explain who exactly will be in this "next harvest".  And then WHEN is "this harvest, His second bride"?  

How do you know when the 6th seal will be broken?  

"Jesus also returns at the end of wrath and there is a resurrection.

So the point is the righteous are raised more than once. When He comes, those that are His at His coming are raised."

Here is a "summary" of all these supposed resurrections:

1.  the dead in Christ in the first resurrection.  You haven't explained if that is just "the church" who have already died or includes all OT saints as well.

2.  the living believers will be in a second resurrection, in spite of 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Thess 4.

3.  A third resurrection will include the 144K of the "next harvest".  No mention of exactly when that will be.

4.  A fourth resurrection will be for "this harvest, the second bride at the 6th seal".  Yet there is no evidence from Scripture about this.

5.  A fifth resurrection will occur at the "end of wrath".  But no explanation of who will be in that resurrection.

Your claim about "the righteous are raised more than once" is absurd.  No saved person will be resurrected more than once.  And you haven't proven from Scripture with clear verses about all these supposed resurrections, or who is in some of them.

1 Cor 15:23 refutes all of this.  "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

This verse is crystal clear.  After the resurrection of Christ, as firstfruits, THEN, "those who belong to Him", which means ALL saved people from Adam on, will be resurrected, WHEN He comes, which is the Second Advent.

So, as 1 Thess 4 shows, all believers will be glorified at the same event.  And 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing.

And Rev 20:4-6 plainly says that the tribulational martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection, and the only resurrection left is going to be 1,000 years later, which is the singular resurrection of the unbelievers.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

It's just because they fear going into that time should it begin while we are above ground. It's a deception taken hold and the delusion is strong. The delusion is everywhere and not limited to one idea, or even several ideas.

What @The Light is saying cannot be proven from scripture, it's just a desirous hope.

[The Light]

26 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It's just because they fear going into that time should it begin while we are above ground. It's a deception taken hold and the delusion is strong. The delusion is everywhere and not limited to one idea, or even several ideas.

What @The Light is saying cannot be proven from scripture, it's just a desirous hope.

 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you really think anyone could provide a reasonable response to such a very long post?

You asked a lot of questions. I answered them with scriptural support which lengths the post.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Please, already.  And as for all of the verses you quoted, none of them describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  So just accept that fact.

No. The fact is you don't want to accept the facts. Here are the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne of God. You think this happens without them receiving glorified bodies.

Revelation 14

 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Here are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. You don't get crown until Jesus has come and His reward comes with him. You can't wear crowns in heaven without a glorified body.

Revelation 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If there were going to be a glorified trip to heaven, there would be at least one verse that would describe it.  And in ALL of the verses about resurrection and the "gathering" or being "caught up together", NONE of them mention Jesus taking them to heaven.

So there is zero evidence for a "rapture" that includes Jesus taking believers to heaven after receiving a glorified body.

Maybe you are denying the facts. Read the verses I just posted.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And you have not provided any evidence for multiple resurrections.  You can only speculate that there are, by trying to force the Second Advent in various passages to represent different resurrections.

We can prove that the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. You can deny the truth all you want. That's your choice.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But again, the Bible is quite clear that there will be just ONE resurrection, which will be for "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) and it will occur "WHEN He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) which is a reference to the Second Advent, just as 2 Thess 2:1 is. The Bible speaks of resurrection ONLY in the singular, both for the saved and for the unsaved.  And they are 1,000 years apart, as Rev 20:5 very plainly says.

I guess it's clear if you gloss over all the verses that say differently. You see what you want to see.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 

[The Light]

49 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It's just because they fear going into that time should it begin while we are above ground. It's a deception taken hold and the delusion is strong. The delusion is everywhere and not limited to one idea, or even several ideas.

What @The Light is saying cannot be proven from scripture, it's just a desirous hope.

The time is running very short. It would be wise to be watching and be ready as we are told that directly. Will he appear to those that say the master has delayed his coming?

Hebrews 9

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

[Vine Abider]

Good thing our oneness is in Christ and not in doctrine!

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

 

You asked a lot of questions. I answered them with scriptural support which lengths the post.

No. The fact is you don't want to accept the facts. Here are the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne of God. You think this happens without them receiving glorified bodies.

Revelation 14

Revelation 4

Did it ever occur to you that both Rev 14 and Rev 4 are about saints who have died so are already IN heaven?  Since neither chapter describes any event about being resurrected/glorified and being taken to heaven.

"Maybe you are denying the facts. Read the verses I just posted."
Well, of course I did.  Which is why I am able to tell you that none of them describe a trip to heaven after being resurrected/glorified.

I'd say that you just haven't read any of the verses I've posted that very clearly in plain language describe a singular resurrection, which will involve ALL believers and occur WHEN Christ returns to earth.

"We can prove that the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. You can deny the truth all you want. That's your choice."

Interesting.  You say "we can prove...".  But, where is that proof?  That is what you are lacking.

Ive given the verses that clearly show a single resurrection for all believers which will occur at the Second Advent.

"I guess it's clear if you gloss over all the verses that say differently. You see what you want to see."

Yes, you have done a LOT of guessing, regarding your views.  What you STILL don't have are any verses that actually describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, which would be the case if 1 Thess 4 was describing your view.

But, in EVERY passage that deals with resurrection, there is NO MENTION of any such trip to heaven.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Good thing our oneness is in Christ and not in doctrine!

The bad thing is holding to a doctrine that isn't found in Scripture.

What's up with that?!

[Vine Abider]

6 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The bad thing is holding to a doctrine that isn't found in Scripture.

What's up with that?!

Saying that is like saying we're making up things and putting them in the Bible- a serious accusation indeed.  Just to be clear, that's your opinion. 

Please respect other opinions even if you think we're in error, okay?

[WilliamL]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:35 PM, FreeGrace said:

And, no description of glorified believers being taken to heaven in any verse.

And as I have pointed out, the saints who come out of the Great Tribulation will be found in heaven before the throne of God, and all the angels and elders and four living creatures. Rev. 7:9-14

How did they get their if they were not "taken to heaven"? Simply nonsense to say otherwise.