Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

There is a rapture and it is dynamically connected to the resurrection.

By "rapture" do you mean Jesus taking the resurrected and "changed" believers to heaven?  

If so, remember that the Bible teaches just one resurrection of all believers, which will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

2 Thess 2:1 -  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

So there is no way Jesus takes believers to heaven.  He returns to reign during the MK.

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

You are working way too hard. It is better to just stick with the simplicity of the revelation of Jesus given to John.  The message was to prepare for this which is coming.  The message is not that this is what you will miss if you are good enough.

 

I hear you brother. Thanks for the exchange of ideas.

Go well.

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

By "rapture" do you mean Jesus taking the resurrected and "changed" believers to heaven?  

If so, remember that the Bible teaches just one resurrection of all believers, which will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

2 Thess 2:1 -  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

So there is no way Jesus takes believers to heaven.  He returns to reign during the MK.

I agree with your overall principle. Our Lord Jesus is seated in the Father's Throne for this age, but receives His own throne in Revelation Chapter 4. This throne is the one He sets up on earth in Matthew 25:31. So His journey from "above all heavens" has it end on earth. On the way, He pauses in heaven (Revelation Chapter 4) and again in the troposphere where the clouds are (1st Thessalonians 4) to receive His Church for judgment. Then, at the appropriate moment He bursts through the clouds over Mount of Olives (Matt.24:30).

The difficulty is the rapture of the Firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-5. The scene is the same as Revelation Chapter 4. The 24 Elders and the 4 creatures are present as in Chapter 4. In Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 the Christians are judge before the "Bema" - a traveling throne. But in Revelation 14 they stand before the "Thronos" (Gk.). They have been "redeemed FROM the earth", so every indication is that they are in heaven.

I have sought a scene to fit this for years and only come up with one possibility. That is, the Firsfruits have an early and separate Rapture for a short appearance before the throne in heaven. I support this with two bits of evidence;
In Chapter 11 the Two Witnesses are Raptured to "heaven". And in Chapter 12 the Man-Child is raptured to the "Throne", not the "Bema". The difficulty with this lies in the fact that in 1st Thessalonians 4 they saints are raptured to the "air" and "clouds", but the Two Witnesses, who are raptured last, are caught away to heaven.

The solution for this difficulty is that Heaven is in the Troposphere (which would agree with Genesis 1). But I believe that nothing is by chance in the Bible. The Mind Who wrote that Book is a hundred trillion times superior to our puny intellect. He made no mistakes and he did not waste words. Everything is there by design. So why these different names? They're not there by accident.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I agree with your overall principle. Our Lord Jesus is seated in the Father's Throne for this age, but receives His own throne in Revelation Chapter 4. This throne is the one He sets up on earth in Matthew 25:31. So His journey from "above all heavens" has it end on earth.

I don't see Jesus receiving His throne in Rev 4.  That chapter is what John saw when he was taken to heaven initially.  I believe Jesus has been on His throne in heaven since His ascension.  He receives His earthly throne when He comes back at the Second Advent to reign in the MK.

Then you said:  "The difficulty is the rapture of the Firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-5. The scene is the same as Revelation Chapter 4. The 24 Elders and the 4 creatures are present as in Chapter 4. In Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 the Christians are judge before the "Bema" - a traveling throne. But in Revelation 14 they stand before the "Thronos" (Gk.). They have been "redeemed FROM the earth", so every indication is that they are in heaven."

I don't see any "rapture" in ch 14.

v.4  "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

The Bible always refers to the resurrection of believers in the singular, as in 1.  There is no mention of Jesus taking these 144K to heaven.  Being "offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb" can mean a number of things.  And when considering the resurrection, ONLY Jesus is "the firstfruits", followed by ALL believers (those who belong to Him) which will be "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent.

"I have sought a scene to fit this for years and only come up with one possibility. That is, the Firsfruits have an early and separate Rapture for a short appearance before the throne in heaven. I support this with two bits of evidence;
In Chapter 11 the Two Witnesses are Raptured to "heaven". And in Chapter 12 the Man-Child is raptured to the "Throne", not the "Bema". The difficulty with this lies in the fact that in 1st Thessalonians 4 they saints are raptured to the "air" and "clouds", but the Two Witnesses, who are raptured last, are caught away to heaven."

I don't understand what "a short appearance before the throne" means.  And the 2W are not "raptured", since they were taken to heaven way back in the OT already.  And their bodies being "raised from the dead" isn't a glorification that will accompany the resurrection of all the dead saints.  Bottom line from 1 Cor 15:23 is that all believers will be glorified at the same event, which is the Second Advent.

"The solution for this difficulty is that Heaven is in the Troposphere (which would agree with Genesis 1). But I believe that nothing is by chance in the Bible. The Mind Who wrote that Book is a hundred trillion times superior to our puny intellect. He made no mistakes and he did not waste words. Everything is there by design. So why these different names? They're not there by accident."

Scripture is clear;  there is one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 -  and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Paul is speaking in the singular, so I don't see how that singular resurrection can be split into multiple resurrections.  Also, both Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 speak of a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved.

So, for me, that singular resurrection of ALL believers will occur when He comes back to reign in the MK.  Then, at the end of the MK, when all unbelievers will have been killed by this time, at the baattle of Gog and Magog, then God will raise from the dead all the unbelievers to appear at the GWT judgment and then cast into the LOF.

Interestingly, the LOF is also called the "second death".  Since people are born spiritually dead, they don't spiritually die a second time, which is what I used to think.  But when I read that there will be a resurrection for unbelievers, it became clear to me that what WILL die a second time is their resurrected and mortal bodies.

So when they are cast into the LOF, they will experience a second death and then their souls will spend eternity in torment.

[Vine Abider]

27 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't see any "rapture" in ch 14.

v.4  "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

The Bible always refers to the resurrection of believers in the singular, as in 1.  There is no mention of Jesus taking these 144K to heaven.  Being "offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb" can mean a number of things.  And when considering the resurrection, ONLY Jesus is "the firstfruits", followed by ALL believers (those who belong to Him) which will be "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent.

 

What is the point to the first fruits in chapter 14 then?  Yes, Christ was The very First Fruit - the first of many; the One Seed who fell into the ground to die to bring forth many grains.  So all these seeds are growing. And if we interpret scripture with scripture, what is the picture in the Old Testament of first fruits?  They ripened early and were brought into the house of God.

What happens often is we assign everything to Jesus and not so much to us.  But Jesus came that we all might have life.  He shares authority and glory with us.  How? "Christ in you, the hope of glory."  So He's (hopefully) growing in all His children, and some will ripen first, and some need the full summer heat.

[seeking the lost]

15 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

By "rapture" do you mean Jesus taking the resurrected and "changed" believers to heaven?  

If so, remember that the Bible teaches just one resurrection of all believers, which will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

2 Thess 2:1 -  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

So there is no way Jesus takes believers to heaven.  He returns to reign during the MK.

The rapture is the catching away of those who have not seen or gone through death.  They are changed in a twinkling of an eye.  The dead in Christ must be raised first.  That is at the end of the MK.  This is the time of the last day that Jesus spoke of.   This is John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day is the day after which there is no other day.

[seeking the lost]

9 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

What is the point to the first fruits in chapter 14 then?  Yes, Christ was The very First Fruit - the first of many; the One Seed who fell into the ground to die to bring forth many grains.  So all these seeds are growing. And if we interpret scripture with scripture, what is the picture in the Old Testament of first fruits?  They ripened early and were brought into the house of God.

What happens often is we assign everything to Jesus and not so much to us.  But Jesus came that we all might have life.  He shares authority and glory with us.  How? "Christ in you, the hope of glory."  So He's (hopefully) growing in all His children, and some will ripen first, and some need the full summer heat.

I grew up on a wheat farm.  The harvest is often associated with wheat.  Wheat matures all at the same time.  The tares are gathered first to be burned.  The harvest of wheat is all at once.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

What is the point to the first fruits in chapter 14 then?  Yes, Christ was The very First Fruit - the first of many; the One Seed who fell into the ground to die to bring forth many grains.  So all these seeds are growing.

 

 

Ch 14 cannot be linked to resurrection.  There just isn't any words to make that connection.  And being "offered as firstfruits" cannot refer to resurrection since Christ alone is the firstfruit of resurrection, meaning the FIRST to receive a resurrection (glorified) body.

You said:  "And if we interpret scripture with scripture, what is the picture in the Old Testament of first fruits?  They ripened early and were brought into the house of God."

Why do we need to go to the OT for details of the resurrection.  Dan 12:2 clearly states that there will be a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved.  Trying to include humans with the only actual firstfruit (Christ) doesn't work.

"What happens often is we assign everything to Jesus and not so much to us.  But Jesus came that we all might have life.  He shares authority and glory with us.  How? "Christ in you, the hope of glory."  So He's (hopefully) growing in all His children, and some will ripen first, and some need the full summer heat."

This has nothing to do with the resurrection of "those who belong to Him", from 1 Cor 15:23.

Again, there is just ONE resurrection of the saved.  And Jesus was the FIRST to receive a glorified body.  All the rest of the saved will get theirs "when He comes".

1 Cor 15:23 -  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

With a verse as clear as this, there is no need to go to the OT for details on resurrection.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

I grew up on a wheat farm.  The harvest is often associated with wheat.  Wheat matures all at the same time.  The tares are gathered first to be burned.  The harvest of wheat is all at once.

That is one picture (wheat).  So why the mention of first fruits in multiple places in the OT, which are brought directly into the temple, and the first fruits in Revelation 14?

Edited November 12, 2022 by Vine Abider

[Vine Abider]

8 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Ch 14 cannot be linked to resurrection.  There just isn't any words to make that connection.  And being "offered as firstfruits" cannot refer to resurrection since Christ alone is the firstfruit of resurrection, meaning the FIRST to receive a resurrection (glorified) body.

You said:  "And if we interpret scripture with scripture, what is the picture in the Old Testament of first fruits?  They ripened early and were brought into the house of God."

Why do we need to go to the OT for details of the resurrection.  Dan 12:2 clearly states that there will be a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved.  Trying to include humans with the only actual firstfruit (Christ) doesn't work.

First fruits in Rev 14 looks to be more detail . . . more detail to the resurrections of the saved and unsaved, that is, more detail to the resurrection of the saved.

Okay, I'm not sure why you don't want to look at the OT for the basis of the first fruits mentioned in Rev 14 . . . you just referenced Daniel!  But there it is - 144,000 that are clearly not Christ Himself (they do have Christ in them), being present to God.  This is just like all the first fruits in various OT places, where it is stated they be brought directly into the temple.

An if there are more first fruits than Christ Himself, by definition there must be others that ripen later.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Vine Abider