Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So is your contention that no souls are caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air?

Certainly not in Rev 14:14.  I proved from the whole context what the subject was about.  

1.  sharp sickles

2.  lots and lots of blood

3.  winepress of God's wrath.

Why would anyone think all this would be involved in the resurrection of believers?

[WilliamL]

On 11/30/2022 at 5:14 PM, FreeGrace said:

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

No mention of a trip to heaven in a glorified body. 

They did not die: they went to heaven straight out of the Trib. What more do you need? Did they go to heaven without a trip there? absurd. Could they dwell there without a glorified body? absurd.

Romans 8:23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Certainly not in Rev 14:14.  I proved from the whole context what the subject was about.  

1.  sharp sickles

2.  lots and lots of blood

3.  winepress of God's wrath.

Why would anyone think all this would be involved in the resurrection of believers?

Two groups are there in Rev 14:14-20.  In verses 14-16, these ones are reaped to the Son in the clouds (good thing).  The ones in verses 17-20 are a reaping of wrath. 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

They did not die: they went to heaven straight out of the Trib. What more do you need? Did they go to heaven without a trip there? absurd. Could they dwell there without a glorified body? absurd.

Romans 8:23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.

There will be many martyrs who will "come out of the great Tribulation".  All saints who die go to heaven immediately.  This is no mystery.  What I am talking about is the claim about a "rapture" where those who "are alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM in the air" per 1 Thess 4:17 and THEN are taken to heaven in glorified bodies.  

Regarding Rom 8:23, do you know WHEN the "redemption of our body" will occur?  At the Second Advent when Jesus returns with all the saints that are already in heaven, and everyone (all the saved) will receive their glorified body.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Two groups are there in Rev 14:14-20.  In verses 14-16, these ones are reaped to the Son in the clouds (good thing).  The ones in verses 17-20 are a reaping of wrath. 

please do read all from v.14 to v.20.  Why would Jesus be sitting on a cloud with a sharp sickle, just like the angel who also has a sharp sickle who uses it to create lots and lots of blood and there is the winepress of God's wrath.

There is no rapture in Rev 14.  No words that even come close to a "rapture".

Just as there are no words in John 14:1-4 that come close to a "rapture".

[WilliamL]

39 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There will be many martyrs who will "come out of the great Tribulation".  All saints who die go to heaven immediately.  This is no mystery.  What I am talking about is the claim about a "rapture" where those who "are alive and remain" will be caught up together with THEM in the air" per 1 Thess 4:17 and THEN are taken to heaven in glorified bodies.  

Regarding Rom 8:23, do you know WHEN the "redemption of our body" will occur?  At the Second Advent when Jesus returns with all the saints that are already in heaven, and everyone (all the saved) will receive their glorified body.

The 1 Thes. 4:14-17 saints, both living and dead, ascend at the Parousia of Christ, according to verse 14.

The dead and living of 1 Cor. 15 receive their new bodies at the Parousia of Christ, according to verse 23.

The elect will be gathered by the angels of heaven after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24:4-31 2) at the Parousia of Christ, according to verse 27.

" The parousia will be concurrent with the resurrection of the dead, the gathering together of the believing saints by the angels of heaven, and these saints being caught up/raptured into the clouds of heaven. Matt. 24:30-31; 1 Cor. 15:21-23; 1 Thes 2:19; 3:13; 4:14-17 "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

 

[FreeGrace]

14 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The 1 Thes. 4:14-17 saints, both living and dead, ascend at the Parousia of Christ, according to verse 14.

The dead and living of 1 Cor. 15 receive their new bodies at the Parousia of Christ, according to verse 23.

The elect will be gathered by the angels of heaven after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24:4-31 2) at the Parousia of Christ, according to verse 27.

" The parousia will be concurrent with the resurrection of the dead, the gathering together of the believing saints by the angels of heaven, and these saints being caught up/raptured into the clouds of heaven. Matt. 24:30-31; 1 Cor. 15:21-23; 1 Thes 2:19; 3:13; 4:14-17 "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

 

All 3 of the verses you cited (1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15:23, and Matt 24) refer to the same event, which is the second advent of Christ.  That's when the single resurrection of the saints will occur.

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 plainly say that there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved.  

The 2 resurrections are 1,000 years apart, according to Rev 20:4-6.

What is missing from every resurrection is any mention of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

I think your comment about "the clouds of heaven" is part of the problem.  None of the verses that reference the resurrection say anything about "of heaven".  That is an addition that isn't in the text.

What seems so obvious is that when Jesus returns to earth with all the saints of heaven and gathers up the living believers, they meet "in the air", as 1 Thess 4 actually says.  So the "clouds" would obviously be "in the air".

Consider Jesus' ascension in Acts 1.  As Jesus left, His 11 disciples could see Him "in the clouds".  And the angel told them that He would return "in the same way".

So, all references of believers being gathered "in the clouds" would be in earth's atmosphere.  

And, no description of glorified believers being taken to heaven in any verse.

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

please do read all from v.14 to v.20.  Why would Jesus be sitting on a cloud with a sharp sickle, just like the angel who also has a sharp sickle who uses it to create lots and lots of blood and there is the winepress of God's wrath.

There is no rapture in Rev 14.  No words that even come close to a "rapture".

Just as there are no words in John 14:1-4 that come close to a "rapture".

So you just don't like the word "rapture" it sounds like, right?  What word should we use then?

And just because the sickle is used for both . . .

[FreeGrace]

28 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

So you just don't like the word "rapture" it sounds like, right?  What word should we use then?

And just because the sickle is used for both . . .

First, the very concept of the word "rapture" isn't found in the Bible.  So it's an unbiblical idea.  Jesus does not take glorified believers to heaven.  Or the Bible would have said so.

And again, there is no mention of anyone being taken to heaven in Rev 14.  From v.14-20, it's all about the winepress of God's wrath on EARTH.  

Since there is only 1 resurrection of believers, where do you place it on the timeline of history?

[The Light]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 14:14-20  The entire context for v.14

There is nothing here about a "rapture".

Where do you think these righteous of the 12 tribes are going at the harvest?