Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I think you are just jumping around.  1 Thess 4, Matt 24 and Rev 19 are all the same thing, but focusing on different aspects of the same thing;  the return of the King.

WHICH "return? 1 Thes. 4 shows a return before wrath.
Matthew 24 shows a return after the trib. 
Never the twain shall meet. These are different comings.

[Vine Abider]

Hey!  Do I get some of prize if this thing goes to a hundred pages? (or maybe a Christmas present if it happens before Xmas . . .) 

[DeighAnn]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

WHICH "return? 1 Thes. 4 shows a return before wrath.
Matthew 24 shows a return after the trib. 
Never the twain shall meet. These are different comings.

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

12That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

THIS IS NOT THE CHURCH AS THIS IS THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AND ROSE.

SO CHRIST IS BRINGING WITH HIM THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AND RISEN TO HEAVEN.  

HOPEFULLY WE AGREE UP TO HERE.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Again the Lord is coming, and is bringing those who have died and risen just like Him, agreed?  Still no mention of the church.  Just the return of Christ with the SAVED.

Hopefully we still agree.
 

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Christ is coming from heaven
there will be a shout with the voice of archangel
the trump of GOD will sound
the  DEAD will be raise up from hell


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

AND all those who are left alive in the flesh will be changed and and will join with the armies in heaven and Christ and the armies will continue to set up the kingdom on earth where He will sit upon the throne of David.  Correct?  THE WE WHICH ARE ALIVE is the 'church' correct?  

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

We KNOW the times and the seasons though.  HOW?  Because the Apostles ASKED CHRIST what the end times would be like.  HOW do you think they knew the times and the season?

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

We know Christ is coming UNEXPECTEDLY and He is coming in the night.  MOST LIKELY WHEN THERE IS SACKCLOTH ON THE SUN, a sign of mourning  (HIS brightness going to end that) and that will be taking place when

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
 

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

BUT that day, when Christ returns isn't going to overtake us because WE HAVE BEEN TOLD because we are

5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

So we need to stay awake

NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE ANYWHERE.  but THERE is only one way that THEY COULD HAVE KNOWN THE SEASON  and that is because 

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

THAT MEANS THE CHURCH WILL STILL BE HERE.

SO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?  AND WHO SEES IT?
 

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

that WOULD BE THOSE WHO ARE ENDURING TO THE END, THE CHURCH, THOSE WHO CHRIST IS TALKING ABOUT, THESE ARE THE BEGINNINGS OF THE CHURCH.

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

great tribulation comes AFTER SATAN IS SET UP AND DOING HIS THING


Back to 2 thess WRITTEN TO CLEAR UP SOME MISSUNDERSTANDINGS

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;


7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

THIS IS WHEN THE WRATH OF GOD IS COMING Upon the world, CORRECT?


9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION STAND WHERE HE OUGHT NOT
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



 

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

IT IS THE END TIME EVENTS AND THE DECEPTION SATAN WILL BE PERPETRATING UPON THE WHOLE INHABITED WORLD THAT HAS TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE CHRIST RETURNS 

 

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

THERE IS ONLY ONE WHO LETS, and that is GOD, and God will let until Christ returns AND when Christ returns 
 

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,




10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Back to Matt

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

WHAT ARE you telling US?  PRE TRIB rapture.  LO, HERE IS CHRIST.  WHAT are we told to do with the INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING US? BELIEVE IT NOT

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not

 

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

REVELATION 19

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

NOT SACKCLOTH AND BLOOD, THOSE TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD.  THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE LORD IS WHAT MAKES THE SUN LOOK DARK AND THE MOON HAVE NO LIGHT. 
 

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God was not "hiding." He waited to see of the Jews would accept the risen Lord as their Messiah.  Of course He foreknew this, but it seems God wants to SEE.

He chose not to reveal some things in the Old Testament. You can ask Him why later.

1 Thes 4 CANNOT be the same coming as Matthew 24. One coming is before the Trib, while the other is after the trib. Sorry, friend, but you cannot warp time.

Did you just not notice in 1 Thes. That this coming is just before Wrath?

You are free to your own opinions, but the Bible is very clear with plain words that the singular resurrection of all the saved will be "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent.  I don't know when "wrath" occurs.  And I don't think it is that important to understand the basic timeline of the Tribulation.

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is your problem: you need input from the NT. The Gentile church was a MYSTERY back then, so nothing about it.

Hilarious!  I HAVE input from the NT.  Acts 24:15 says there is A resurrection (singular) for the saved and A resurrection (singular) for the unsaved.  1 Cor 15:23 says that all believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes".  And Rev 20:4-4 shows that the resurrection of trib maryrs is the FIRST resurrection, which is for the saved, and the next one, for the unsaved is 1,000 years later.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Notice that in 1 Thes. 4, Paul tells us the rapture comes just before wrath.
Then find the start of wrath in REvelation. Hint: look at the 6th seal.

Notice that the 6th seal is in revelation chapter 6, while His coming to ARmageddon is in chapter 19!  How can anyone imagine these two chapters are at the same point in time?

The truth is, the 6th seal comes before the trib, while Christ's coming to Armageddon comes AFTER the trib.

Then you have to explain how the great crowd, too large to number, was written in chapter 7 (right after the 6th seal) rather than in chapter 19 to fit your theory.

Sure, living believers will be "caught up" to the clouds in the air.  Then changed into glorified immortal bodies.  And then reign with or serve Christ in the MK.  It's all very clear.

What you don't have is any verse that describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  Which is exactly what you need to prove your theory.

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If we can COUNT, Jesus came ONCE.

The next time then will be His SECOND coming. (See Heb. 9:28) This is a coming ONLY to the air, and it will be PRE-wrath and PRE-Day of the Lord.   

[No, all believers MEET the Lord in the air.  There is NOTHING that says He goes up back to heaven with anyone.  That's your problem.  You suppose He does.] 
 

His coming AFTER the trib will be His THIRD coming. 

Nope, only 2 prophesied advents.  First time as baby and second time as King of kings and Lord of lords.  And Rev 20:4-6 proves it.

[FreeGrace]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So you read 1 Corinth 15:23 as

EVERYONE AT THE COMING OF HIM

FIRST FRUIT CHRIST  

 THEN EVERYONE AT THE COMING OF HIM?




Rather than

Each however in the own order 

EVERYONE IN THEIR OWN SEASON AND PLACEMENT

firstfruit Christ,

BEGINNING with CHRIST FIRST

then those of Christ at the coming of Him

then THE ALIVE AND REMAINING

 

Why would I read it the way you worded it, since there is NO mention of "those of Christ" and THEN "the alive and remaining".

Just read it the way it is written.  You can't go wrong.  When you start monkeying with the Word, one gets all confused.

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHICH "return? 1 Thes. 4 shows a return before wrath.
Matthew 24 shows a return after the trib. 
Never the twain shall meet. These are different comings.

No it doesn't "show a return before wrath".  Please show me the exact words that have you confused.

You are just talking yourself out of the truth.  It's actually quite clear and plain.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

No it doesn't "show a return before wrath".  Please show me the exact words that have you confused.

You are just talking yourself out of the truth.  It's actually quite clear and plain.

You are TOO funny! You made me laugh. Perhaps you mean "your" truth.

[George]

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What you don't have is any verse that describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.  Which is exactly what you need to prove your theory.

For curiosity sake ... did you ever answer my question about how the Saints were in Heaven, when Jesus returns in glory?

Rev 19:7  Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; 

Rev 19:8  it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. 

...

Rev 19:11  Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 

Rev 19:12  His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 

Rev 19:13  He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 

Rev 19:14  And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

Q: How were the saints following Him from heaven when He returns?