Serpent or Cherubim

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

You guys are going to run me off for my opinions on this, but trust me, I have my reasons.

The description of the snake in the garden was I think, Satan manifested the way he really looked. And how did he look? Like a very beautiful reptile...or dragon. Incidentally, he is mentioned as a dragon elsewhere. A cherub can be a dragon and a devil. Other descriptions of him more explain his character than his appearance. 

Before the temptation of Eve, there was no reason to call Satan a serpent unless he was some sort of a reptile. 

Just something to chew on, like that tasty gristle with a fine steak. 😊 Saying that so as not to get spit out so fast, LOL.

Would anyone disagree that the beasts with four faces in the book of Revelation are not Cherubim? The name ángelos or angel tells us only their duties, or job description if you will, “messengers.” The same can be said about Cherubim, the highest order of spiritual beings, guardians of something. They were guarding the way to the Tree of Life, the Ark of the Covenant, God’s Throne, etc.

My view is that there are guardians appointed by God over segments of creation. Akin to the assignment of 70 angels over the seventy nations when God disinherited them for a time at Babel.

Yes, Satan is described with reptilian features. What I find interesting with the view I have about the beasts with four faces (eagle, calf, lion, and man). With the many eyes, if they represent Watchers over the four kingdoms of man, fowl, domestic & wild animals, one domain is conspicuously missing—the reptile and fish kingdom.

At creation, were animals divided into two classes, warm and cold-blooded? Or could that be the result of something, perhaps from a curse?

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Before Satan was kicked out of heaven he was a Cherub which is the highest ranking angel in heaven. He became Satan when he was kicked out of heaven with 1/3 of the angels who followed him. He then disguised himself as a serpent in the garden.

To me, the Bible indicates Satan still had access to Heaven and the Throne of God as the accuser in the book of Job. I read Revelation 12:1-5 as the Satanic rebellion drawing one-third of the angels did not occur until right before Jesus’s incarnation. Whatcha think?

[missmuffet]

38 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

To me, the Bible indicates Satan still had access to Heaven and the Throne of God as the accuser in the book of Job. I read Revelation 12:1-5 as the Satanic rebellion drawing one-third of the angels did not occur until right before Jesus’s incarnation. Whatcha think?

Yes, Satan still had access to the Throne of God in the book of Job. He had to get permission to sift Job. I don't know if Satan still has access to God's Throne. I will have to look that up.

The angels were created before the earth Job 38:4-7. Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve. The fall therefore could have occurred somewhere after the angels were created and before the tempted Adam and Eve. 

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, FrankIeCip said:

Was he a cherub and after the pride was cast down to the earth as a serpent? I know the serpent is Satan but I was just wondering about his description as a cherub in Ezekiel 28

The devil can posses animal like pigs which then throw themselves into water.

[JohnR7]

5 hours ago, FrankIeCip said:

Was he a cherub and after the pride was cast down to the earth as a serpent? I know the serpent is Satan but I was just wondering about his description as a cherub in Ezekiel 28

Maybe you should read it for yourself. 

Rev 12 

7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers[a] has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

[missmuffet]

@Dennis1209 It looks like Satan has access to God's Throne until the end of the 7 year tribulation and the second coming of Jesus Christ. 

[FrankIeCip]

16 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You are not reading scripture correctly. 

How so? 

You were the seal of perfection, 

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13You were in Eden, 

the garden of God 
 

Its right here in Ezekiel 28  He was in Eden 

You shouldn’t accuse someone of reading improperly on the basis of a question. I didn’t state anything and claim it as truth. It was just a question. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by FrankIeCip

[Starise]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, Satan is described with reptilian features. What I find interesting with the view I have about the beasts with four faces (eagle, calf, lion, and man). With the many eyes, if they represent Watchers over the four kingdoms of man, fowl, domestic & wild animals, one domain is conspicuously missing—the reptile and fish kingdom.

At creation, were animals divided into two classes, warm and cold-blooded? Or could that be the result of something, perhaps from a curse?

I'm guessing you are getting this from the King Of Tyre reference in Ezekiel?  This is where I get it from because I see the jewels on the skin as possibly vibrant scales. Coupled with Satan being called a serpent in Genesis and a dragon in Revelation.

The idea of dragons and reptiles is deeply embedded in many cultures, just take a look at the Asian cultures. They are not the only ones. Several pagan cultures have myths of their gods that come from the sea with a fish tail or have some resemblance to a fish or reptile. After Genesis, the snake has a very bad reputation. To Christians and Jews, the snake is bad, to gnostics and pagans the snake is good.

Most Christian teaching on the subject will simply say they called Satan a snake in Genesis as a symbolic way to show his character, and it had nothing to do with what he looks like. This is only an opinion. I see no proof for this view. I mean, the bible mostly refers to everything else in creation for what it actually is.  Since snakes don't talk, some say Satan possessed a snake. I don't buy that explanation because the way the language is in that passage, if you read it for what it says, it describes a being, says nothing about Satan possessing anything. In fact, the only example I see where Satan literally possesses something is Judas. It is mostly inferred Satan enters the man of sin in revelation, but I can't recall a specific passage where it says, " And Satan entered the man of sin". We mostly assume he does from the text, since the anti christ is the anithesis of Jesus. 

So what I think we are left with is:

-A being of the highest created order besides God Himself

-A being that has serpent traits or is from the serpent family

-Is beautiful in appearance. The serpent is not something the western mind commonly associates with beauty

Alternative view:

-Satan was called a serpent because this has an evil connotation in Jewish lore and was a symbolic description.

If a serpent was possessed by Satan for an evil work, why are all serpents punished?

 If we say that Satan is symbolically represented in Genesis, then we have to say the other parts of the story likely are as well. This means the fruit from the tree could be representative of an action instead of an actual act. The entire story could then all be symbolic or parable like. If this were true, the story just tells us that man sinned and was penalized to pay the price for disobedience generationally, and that the serpent bruises the woman's heel but she through the blood of Christ will crush it's head.

Which of these views do we have the most support for?

I believe there was an actual garden of Eden. Since it is an actual geographic location in antiquity made by God for a very specific purpose for Adam and Eve to tend, why would we assume the rest of the story is a parable, even if the take away gives us the same ideas either way ? And if the bible calls Satan a serpent....well then, he is a serpent IMHO.

[Dennis1209]

46 minutes ago, Starise said:

I'm guessing you are getting this from the King Of Tyre reference in Ezekiel?  This is where I get it from because I see the jewels on the skin and possibly vibrant scales. Coupled with Satan being called a serpent in Genesis and a dragon on Revelation.

The idea of dragons and reptiles is deeply embedded in many cultures, just take a look at the Asian cultures. They are not the only ones. Several pagan cultures have myths of their gods that come from the sea with a fish tail or have some resemblance to a fish or reptile. After Genesis, the snake has a very bad reputation. To Christians and Jews, the snake is bad, to gnostics and pagans the snake is good.

Most Christian teaching on the subject will simply say they called Satan a snake in Genesis as a symbolic way to show his character, and it had nothing to do with what he looks like. This is only an opinion. I see no proof for this view. I mean, the bible mostly refers to everything else in creation for what it actually is.  Since snakes don't talk, some say Satan possessed a snake. I don't buy that explanation because the way the language is in that passage, if you read it for what it says, it describes a being, says nothing about Satan possessing anything. In fact, the only example I see where Satan literally possesses something is Judas. It is mostly inferred Satan enters the man of sin in revelation, but I can't recall a specific passage where it says, " And Satan entered the man of sin". We mostly assume he does from the text, since the anti christ is the anithesis of Jesus. 

So what I think we are left with is:

-A being of the highest created order besides God Himself

-A being that has serpent traits or is from the serpent family

-Is beautiful in appearance. The serpent is not something the western mind commonly associates with beauty

Alternative view:

-Satan was called a serpent because this has an evil connotation in Jewish lore and was a symbolic description.

If a serpent was possessed by Satan for an evil work, why are all serpents punished?

 If we say that Satan is symbolically represented in Genesis, then we have to say the other parts of the story likely are as well. This means the fruit from the tree could be representative of an action instead of an actual act. The entire story could then all be symbolic or parable like. If this were true, the story just tells us that man sinned and was penalized to pay the price for disobedience generationally, and that the serpent bruises the woman's heel but she through the blood of Christ will crush it's head.

Which of these views do we have the most support for?

I believe there was an actual garden of Eden. Since it is an actual geographic location in antiquity made by God for a very specific purpose for Adam and Eve to tend, why would we assume the rest of the story is a parable, even if the take away gives us the same ideas either way ? And if the bible calls Satan a serpent....well then, he is a serpent IMHO.

Once again, we are on the same wavelength with our thoughts. I cannot think of one instance where parables or symbology use proper names, places, and geographical locations.

I would not argue with any of the views you presented; they are logical and plausible.

As I alluded to above, in all the heavenly scenes John witnesses and pens in Revelation, nothing is depicted representing cold-blooded animals (reptiles). Only those defined as having the breath of life.

It is not difficult to make some assumptions. There are angelic beings and “Watchers” observing and looking over creation (job assignments). Man, and the animal kingdom are seen and accounted for, save reptiles and cold-blooded creatures. It almost appears that at one time, a Cherub (Watcher) was appointed over that kingdom and was cursed or removed.  

I suspect “eating dust” might be a metaphor for the proximity of the mouth to the ground (snakes, turtles, lizards, crocodiles, Komodo dragons, etc.). They seek shelter in the earth and dens when it is too cold to regulate their body temperature.

[Starise]

23 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

As I alluded to above, in all the heavenly scenes John witnesses and pens in Revelation, nothing is depicted representing cold-blooded animals (reptiles). Only those defined as having the breath of life.

This idea is something I had not considered before, that the omission of reptiles in heaven is deliberate, a result of possibly the heavenly war? I would have to unpack that more.  I don't really know where to go with it since the idea comes from what isn't rather than what is.  If true this idea carried further would then say that it was the reptilian segment of heaven that rebelled, if there were such a segment. Of course there could be other reasons reptiles don't seem to be a part of the heavenly realm so far as the beings there are concerned. We have 'types' and 'orders' of created beings in heaven.  I have zero indication in the bible that a segment of heaven rebelling with Satan was indeed reptilian. If we say that Satan was indeed some kind of a high order reptilian, and if he was a part of a group of beings in heaven, then we could make an uneducated inference toward it.

I think we both are well aware that no one in 99% of churches wants to go any where near that, but I know you and I will lol. Doesn't bother me. I would rather be right and disagree with a million protestants than wrong and in agreement with all of them.

Reptiles figure largely into Satanism and demon worship. I find myself wanting more proof, but some of these things are more about what we think we see or what we think has been revealed, maybe only in small slivers here and there.

I never intended to get into " David what's his name" territory with this because them you turn everyone off from even considering it.

My hunch is there IS a connection, but my ideas are not overtly biblical other than what we already came across on it.

Pigs don't seem to be in heaven either since they are viewed as an unclean animal. 

And I'm willing to admit I could be totally wrong in my assumptions on this. I just don't see how you would refer to a serpent it it isn't a serpent, unless it is for the reasons mentioned.

23 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I suspect “eating dust” might be a metaphor for the proximity of the mouth to the ground (snakes, turtles, lizards, crocodiles, Komodo dragons, etc.). They seek shelter in the earth and dens when it is too cold to regulate their body temperature.

Yes I suspect it's more the reptile class and not only snakes. Lots of reptiles move around on their bellies.