The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

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With the sounding of the 5th Trumpet, we have evidences pointing to the initial rise of the beast (cp. Rev. 9:1-2 & 11:7).  With a world in utter turmoil after what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal and the first four trumpets, the "five month" (9:5, 10) time frame spoken of in this period will facilitate the beast's rise to power.

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HOW can you say this, when John makes no mention of the Beast until chapter 13? How can you say this when the Beast is not revealed (as the Antichrist Beast) until he enters the temple and declares He is God?

In my mind, you shouldn't!  ;-)

He is not going to "rise to power" until Rev. chapter 13. That means not until the second half of the week. It makes a huge difference where one believes the Week starts.

What is happening? The DAY of the Lord begins at the 6th seal. Some unwritten time after that the 7th seal will be opened, for 30 minutes of silence - the official beginning of the 70th week AND perhaps the first salvo's of the Day of the Lord as well. As I see it, God starts the Day of the Lord FIRST, so that the entire 70th week will take place INSIDE the Day of the Lord. Therefore, there can be no doubt that the ENTIRE WEEK will come with God's wrath.

The first six trumpets will sound during the first half of the week.  They are the start of the HURT on planet earth.

Isaiah 13:9  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

There can be no doubt the trumpet judgments are beginning that "laying the land desolate," and "destroying the sinners..."

If the 5th trumpet takes 5 months, how much time will the other trumpets take?
How much time between trumpets will God give to allow men to repent?

We don't know because John does not tell us. Just some guessing: it does not take long for nukes to go off. It would not take long for nuclear war to begin and finish.  It does not take long for a meteor to hit. Perhaps the 5 months is the longest duration of any trumpet. We just don't know. 

What we DO know is that the Beast was seen rising AFTER the midpoint of the week.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

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With the 6th Trumpet, we see evidences that connect with the depopulation of the Far East.  It is easily conceivable that a cataclysm capable of destruction that would depopulate our Western Hemisphere would result in tsunamis that would be devastating to the shore lands around the world---way inland.  On the Pacific Ocean side, it is not hard to envision what this would mean for the shore lands of eastern Asia, resulting in major migrations westward.  The bottom line?  Again, bringing the focus more and more to bear upon the lands of the Bible days, as things were during the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks...

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AT the 6th trumpet, second woe, 1/3 of the population of the world is killed.  (I suspect a heavenly or spiritual army of 2oo million.) I believe, since Isaiah said the DAY is to destroy the land and the sinners in the land, that this 1/3 will certainly be sinners, and probably from every nation in the world. However, that is only a guess because John does not tell us. 

Sorry, I disagree with your Western Hemisphere theory. I think you have a great imagination. 

A point to keep in mind: the 6th trumpet will come in the first half of the week, and the Antichrist Beast is not written to be involved. This is a judgment coming from God.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

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What do we see then?  It's in our face:  What we see in the opening verses of Revelation 11.  Once again, in the opening verse, just because reference is here made to "the temple of God" and there is "worship" going on, this does not mean it is God who is being worshiped (cp. Matt. 24:15, Mk. 13:14, & II Thess. 2:3-4).  Then, unsurprisingly, we see the first mentions of the two 3-1/2 year time frames that make up Daniel's 70th Week.  Further, with the 3-1/2 year time frame mentioned in verse three, an account begins of things relating to the first half of the 70th Week (vss. 3-13), which is evidenced to be over just before the 7th Trumpet is sounded (vs. 14).

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I see 11:1-3 as only DAYS (I believe 3 1/2 days) before the exact midpoint. The beast has not risen to power. He is not yet revealed. 

I believe 11:2 is about the man of sin moving to Jerusalem. I suspect He will come with a Gentile army.  

As for the temple, it is the very temple the Beast will enter. It will include the Holy of Holies where, in the OT, the presence of God dwelt. That is why the man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies. To SHOW THE WORLD that he is the God of the Jews! He will go to where the Jews imagine God dwells. (Whether or not God will put His presense there is for another thread.)

John wrote, "the temple of God..." Why or how you can imagine John and the Holy Spirit calling any other temple a "temple of God" escapes me. There can be no doubt John is speaking of the new Jewish temple.  

We can be just as sure, the man of sin is not going to enter the Dome of the Rock and declare he is the god of Islam.

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Then, unsurprisingly, we see the first mentions of the two 3-1/2 year time frames that make up Daniel's 70th Week. 

No, sorry, but we don't. We see two mentions of the last half of the week. John is at the midpoint, or just days away from the midpoint.  In verse 2 he wrote of the first countdown of 42 months starting right there, days before the midpoint. 

I doubt seriously that the Holy Spirit and John are not going to jump back 1260 days to the beginning of the week in verse 3 through 13 and mention what would actually be the first countdown, and mention it second after the 42 months. 

Not to mention, Jesus' words to me were, "every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. It would be strange, Him saying that when one of the 5 mentions was for the first half of the week.

I can still remember His words. Sorry, but here I am going to have to go with what Jesus said to me. I believe parentheses are the answer. (I know one person placed his parenthesis on 10:1 through 11:14.) 

God may well have 144,000 witnesses for the first half of the week. Why would He need two more? On the other hand, the 144,000 are seen in heaven shortly after the midpoint, so witnesses will be needed for the last half of the week.

Therefore I think you are mistaken.

[iamlamad]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:46 PM, not an echo said:

Hmmm.  So, where you say I am "missing it" is what you state in your last sentence?  That's interesting.  What you state in your last sentence is my position as well.

I think where we disagree is when Jesus said, "after the tribulation of those days" you think he is talking seals, but I think he is talking about the days of GT He had just previously spoken of. 

AGain we disagree that the sign Jesus gives matches and IS the 6th seal sign.  This thinking warps time in my mind. There is no way the 6th seal in Revelation 6 is "after the tribulation of those days." Why? Because "tribulation" or pressure will be FAR FAR worse in the last half of the week.

[iamlamad]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:15 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Just out of curiosity, is your name Lamad?  Like, I am Lamad?

I certainly agree with your first three sentences.  Because of Peter's words (II Pet. 3:10-13) and the fit of other prophetic puzzle pieces (e.g., Acts 2:20), we can know that the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will not end until this world is destroyed (cp. Rev. 20:11 & 21:1).

 

Lamad" means "teacher" in Hebrew. I really enjoyed Dr. Seuss book, Green Eggs and Ham, and "I am Sam." 

That is the way I read Peter, unless... Perhaps the fire of cleansing Paul talks of as people's works being tried by fire—perhaps that is the melting Peter was referring to. In which case, the DAY could end before the 1000 years. It's one or the other.

[iamlamad]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:15 PM, not an echo said:

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Again, I do not want to call into question what you say the Lord spoke to you.  But, do you think it is possible that you did not understand Him perfectly?  See, I believe as you said that He said that "You could find the entire 70th Week 'clearly marked'"!  Same with finding "the exact midpoint 'clearly marked'"!  It seems though that what you say in your last two sentences is a deduction you made based on your own reasoning.  As I've encouraged you to do before, I would just talk to the Lord about this some more, Bible in hand.

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I guess the Lord has many ways to bring revelation knowledge: a vision, a dream, spoken words, the inward witness, or just a download. 

The way I see a download, is you just suddenly know something that you did not know the moment before. When Jesus said, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked,'" I just as suddenly "knew" the reason: He would use the same marker. I did not have time to make a deduction: the knowing was instantaneous with what He said.

Years later, I still think I understood: the 7th seal 30 minutes of silence seems to be the perfect way to start the time of Jacob's trouble. The last three words at the 7th vial" "it is done" or "It is finished" seems to be the end of the 70th week.

I think it would be very difficult to prove the week cannot start at the 7th seal, using scripture.

There are some today that think Paul missed it, and ruined Jesus' gospel. They don't believe Paul's gospel. Yet, Paul tells us he got what He got by direct revelation. Paul did not keep quiet about His revelations. Neither, I thing, should anyone, unless God directs someone not to.

Once I was standing beside two very well known preachers. I heard one ask the other, "was the human spirit in Jesus merged with God's Spirit, or were they separate?" Instantly I heard God say to me, "there was not a human spirit and God's Spirit inside me. I was the spirit inside that body."

I did not ask God anything. I was not thinking of anything. God just suddenly spoke.  Now I am convinced that the second person of the Godhead was the only spirit inside the body of Jesus. He was human because He had a human body to dwell in. He was God because the real person, the Spirit inside the body, was God Himself. later I thought, Jesus was certainly not a schizophrenic. 

Sorry, I am rambling. As for understanding what Jesus said, what is there to understand? It was very simple. 

 

[iamlamad]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:15 PM, not an echo said:

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In your brackets you say, "I read 70th week".  I understand why anyone might read it this way, by how things look on the surface.  But, in The Revelation, and by other prophetic puzzle pieces, we are enabled to see other things of relevance below the surface.

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It is my guess, if we took several 5th graders and had them read chapter 24, then asked them "what did Jesus mean by "the tribulation of those days," my guess is, most of not all of them were refer back to the days of great tribulation Jesus had just mentioned. My guess is, the typical 5th grader would have no previous knowledge of "tribulation" of any kind.  It would be a fun test. I think you are out on a limb on this one. 

[iamlamad]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:15 PM, not an echo said:

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I don't know what you are really disagreeing with me on here.  My statement, "at this time" has to do with the time of "the opening of the 6th Seal."  My position is that with the opening of the 6th Seal, in conjunction with everything else that is described, Christ will make His "sign" appearance and the Church will be gathered---completely unscathed---whereupon the "DAY" will begin.  Said another way, with one tick of the clock after the Church is gathered, the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will have begun.  Moreover, I see the 7th Seal being opened just a little bit after this---on the same day.

Do you think it is possible that your concepts are mistaken?  Why are you stuck on an eclipse or eclipses being responsible for what John is seeing?

You had written:

"By Paul's words, we know that the Church will be gathered, or "caught up" by the angels at this time, concurrent with the "great sound of a trumpet" and the gathering that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31.  These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal "

Where is Jesus on John's timeline, at verse 31? He is "after the tribulation of those days..." He is after the 7th bowl that ends the Week - so after chapter 16.

Jesus is descending to Armageddon in Matthew 24 as He sends out angels to gather.  Where is His descent to Armageddon in Revelation?  It is in Rev. 19. 

Where is the 6th seal? It is in chapter 6. Yet, you believe that Revelation is chronological at least up to chapter 11. I think it is chronological all the way through, but with parentheses. My point is, how can you imagine a point in time in Revelation 19 can match a point in time in chapter 6? 

All the events of chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18 must happen AFTER the 6th seal and BEFORE chapter 19. Put another way, seven long and very difficult years must pass after the 6th seal is opened to the point of Jesus' descent to Armageddon.

In Matthew 24, all the verses between verse 15 and 30 must take place before Armageddon.

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one tick of the clock after the Church is gathered, the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will have begun.

I WANT to say that. I have said it  a few times. But I am troubled by it.  Joel said the signs in the sun and moon must be seen "before" the Day can begin. The 6th seal events are:

Earthquake
Signs in the sun and moon
Then the start of the Day. 

It would seem then that John wrote it exactly: the SIGN coming before the start.

Where in this mix do you see the rapture? After the signs but before the Day? After the earthquake but before the Signs in the sun and moon? Or perhaps before the 6th seal is opened. That is where I place it. IF the rapture is just before the 6th seal, then their must be perhaps two weeks or more before the Start of the Day. Like I said before, I am puzzled.

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Why are you stuck on an eclipse or eclipses being responsible for what John is seeing?

I am only going by john's descriptions. We both know what John wrote is a good description of total eclipes. In short, "it looks like a duck...."

God USES the sun and moon for signs. Since John's description SOUNDS like total eclipses, why not just believe they ARE eclipses.

[not an echo]

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:28 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/10/2023 at 8:40 PM, not an echo said:

My position concerning Revelation 11, verses one thru three, and then verses 3-14 is very scriptural and logical.

What we see in verse one is evidences of the beast being worshiped.  Just because the "temple of God" is seen and "worship" is going on, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped (cp. Matt. 24:15 & II Thess. 2:3-4).  Note also that the first mention of the beast is seen in verse seven.

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First, there is a temple, and second, there are worshipers IN the temple, worshiping God. It is the temple of God. That alone should tell you that your theory is off. This is the new JEWISH temple, to replace Solomon's and Herod's temple. 

In other words, this is NOT the gold dome temple where people worship Allah, the moon god. 

Next, notice the words, the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:

These words tell us the rest of the temple is for JEWS and Hebrews. In short, a temple of GOD. (We will leave the argument of whether God will dwell in this temple for another time.) Is it not written that God inhabits the praises of people to God? Therefore, if they are worshiping and praising God, I believe HE IS LISTENING.

Perhaps the measuring is to see of this temple is the size of the Millennial temple from Ezekiel.

I asked God what His intention was in the first two verses. I did not hear His voice nor His words, but I believe He downloaded the answer. Suddenly I thought, the Beast, in a few days, is going to  ENTER this temple and declare he is the GOD of the Jews.

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your opening paragraph, are you hearing what you are saying to me?  Is this what you would say to Paul?  In II Thessalonians 2 (which reference I provided above), he spoke the following...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in THE TEMPLE OF GOD, shewing himself that he is God.

Concerning your last paragraph, for clarification, "the first two verses" you are talking about is Revelation 11:1-2.  Of what you are saying, are you hearing what you are now thinking to yourself?  So, what makes you think it is not the beast being worshiped in verse one, at the time John sees the worship going on?  Seems like to me that you are opposing yourself.

On 1/11/2023 at 12:28 PM, iamlamad said:

One comment: you have the Beast being worshiped BEFORE He is seen rising to power. How can this be? He is only revealed as the beast at the 7th trumpet in chapter 11. John does not mention him being worshiped until his rise to power. I think you have the cart before the horse.

My position is that the Jews will receive the beast as their Messiah and will begin worshiping him from the day that he confirms "the covenant" with them (Dan. 9:27).  The "two witnesses" will testify against him, but the nation is not going to want to hear it.  In other words, on the level of the nation's hateful rejection of their true Messiah, they are going to gladly receive the false Messiah---and will be delighted when the "two witnesses" mouths are shut (Rev. 11:7-10).  The "beast" is seen during the period of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 11:7), during the first 3-1/2 years, which will be "past" (11:14) before the 7th Trumpet is sounded (11:15).  It will be "in the midst of the week" (Dan. 9:27), after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, that the nation will realize its grave mistake (Rev. 12:13-17).

I believe you would have to acknowledge that I've been very patient, taking in all this other scenery with you.  I've had hopes that after a bit we might be able to get back on track with what the focus of this thread is supposed to be.  Do you think that maybe we could do that somewhere up ahead?

[not an echo]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:13 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/10/2023 at 8:40 PM, not an echo said:

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What we see in the next two verses (vss. 2-3) concerns the two 3-1/2 year times frames that make up the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week.  This is very interesting in light of what I have often said and shown concerning the "little book" of Daniel being seen "open" (Rev. 10:2/Dan. 12:4, 8-10) just prior to this.  Said another way, if Revelation 10 concerns the little book of Daniel being at this time seen open, it certainly shouldn't surprise us to see the first real evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having now actually begun.  And we do, with the opening verses of chapter 11.

In verse two, we see the first mention of 3-1/2 years, and relatively speaking, it is just a mention.  You already accept it as pertaining to the last half of Daniel's 70th Week (as do I), which fits Luke 21:20-24 and what we see when the last half of the week begins to be expounded in Revelation 12.

Then, in verse three, the other 3-1/2 year time frame is not only mentioned, but expounded.  Is this the same period mentioned in the verse prior?  On the basis of what would one come to this conclusion?  You put yourself in conflict with Scripture when you try to go down the path that it is also the last 3-1/2 year period, something that we agree does not begin until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and something that crosses with 11:14, which reads:  "The second woe is past;  and behold, the third woe cometh quickly."  So, what do we do with this?  You want to put the preceding verses in parentheses and regard them all as pertaining to the last half of the week.  But, this doesn't change 11:14.  By my math, if the two 3-1/2 year time frames spoken of in 11:2-3 are the same and "past",  we wouldn't be seeing the other 3-1/2 year time frame mentioned three times during the 7th Trumpet period (12:6, 14;  13:5)!  Therefore, my conclusion and position is that what "is past" is in reference to what has just been expounded, meaning 11:3-13.  Don't forget II Timothy 2:15.

Whatever you are believing about what you say that Jesus spoke to you, He is not going to speak to you something that crosses with Scripture.  Now my brother, I'm not calling into question whether the Lord spoke to you.  But, do you think it is possible that you mistook an element of what He meant?  I would at least encourage you to go to Him further about this---next time Bible in hand.

I see NO conflict with what Jesus spoke to me with the written scriptures. He was almost quoting scripture. 

As you said, PERFECT chronology from chapter 1 to chapter 10. Why not extend that to chapter 11? If we make verses 4 through 13 a parenthesis, it is perfect chronology.

Concerning what you say in your last sentence, if you are wanting to put some of verses 1-13 in parenthesis, why not just put verse two in parenthesis?  With the understanding of this that I have presented, this would work far, far better than making "verses 4-13 a parenthesis"---a position that is glaringly in conflict with verse 14.

Of what you say about the chronology of The Revelation, beyond what I say about the perfect chronology of chapters 1 thru 10, what I have shown concerning chapters 11-20 is that there are overlaps of information given---without fail.  This is something that we do not see at all with the first 10 chapters.  In the opening post of my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/), I make the statement, "A survey of the details given in each chapter covering the 7th Trumpet period will show that, aside from the mentioned overlaps of some information, the events recorded in this half of The Revelation are also in strict chronological order---just like with the first half."  I show this concerning the "7th Trumpet period" in this present thread, page 1, post 3.  I have yet to be exposed to another chronology of The Revelation that is as clean as what I have presented.

NOTE: (possibly to the moderators) When I went over to the thread I gave the link to to grab the quote I show, I noticed that my illustrations are not working correctly---at least not presently.  Not sure why.  I've also noticed this sometimes on some of my other threads.  One of these days when I get some more time, I guess I will have to go back through all my threads and try to fix things like this, unless it has something to do with a glitch in the program.

On 1/11/2023 at 1:13 PM, iamlamad said:

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if Revelation 10 concerns the little book of Daniel

You are building a theory based on a guess.

Hmmm.  No, what I am doing is interpreting Scripture with Scripture.  The verses I always reference to show this are the following from Daniel 12...

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME OF THE END.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Remember what I have said about assembling the prophetic puzzle pieces?  What we have with what Daniel was told above and what John wrote in Revelation 10---in conjunction with the other things I have pointed out---represents many points of prophetic convergence.