The souls under the altar (Rev. 6:9-11); are they killed before or during the tribulation period?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

I already posted scripture that proves this.

Other scriptures that actual mention Christ's coming prove you are mistaken. Christ will "come" (but only to the air) for the catching up of the church, and that will happen just before God's wrath begins. (At the 6th seal.) 

John shows us His coming to Armageddon will happen after the 70th week has finished, in Revelation 19.

For His comings, these passages carry FAR more "weight" than a passage you have to guess at. No one knows who those 24 elders are.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You and I disagree on almost every point. I follow Revelation's order exactly. I believe God knew the correct order and showed the vision to John in the correct order. 

My axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

You can take that to the bank, so to speak: your theory will be proven wrong.

Oh boy. I am not rearranging anything. I am reading what the Word says and understanding what the Word says. If you understood what the Word says, you would understand that the wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

If you understood what you are reading, you would understand that when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. If you understood what you are reading, you would understand that when you are reading Revelation 15 and 16 you are back in the timeframe of the trumpets. However, it is obvoius that you do not understand what you are reading.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

That depends on what you mean by "the tribulation." If you mean the 70th week of Daniel, that BEGINS at the 7th seal.

Wake up brother. The tribulation, the time of Jacobs trouble, begins at the 1st seal.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

The midpoint is at the 7th trumpet in chapter 11, and the week ENDS at the 7th vial. God has "marked" (His word, not mine) the week with sevens.

It's all over at the 7th trumpet. Just as it's all over at the 7th vial. When you read Revelation 13, 14, 15 and 16 its the same timeframe as the seals and the trumpets. Pay attention to what you are reading.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 13 is at the timing of the 42 months of authority of the Antichrist Beast and shows

Ok

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

HOW he will cause the days of great tribulation that will begin after God warns people about the MARK in chapter 15.

Here is the great tribulation.

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This occurs during the 5th seal.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

The martyrs of the Beast begin to show up in heaven in the first verses of chapter 15.

Pay attention to what you are reading. Who shows up in Revelation 5? The Church. Who shows up in Revelation 7? The great multitude. Who is in the great multitude? It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven. The 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. The twelve tribes being gathered from the earth is who you see in Revelation 15. That is why they sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The days of great tribulation then are in chapter 16.

Revelation 16 is the wrath of God. The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. That is why in Revelation 7 you see this.

Revelation 7

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here we can see another view of the great tribulation 

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This occurs during the 5th seal.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Preposterous! Inconceivable! Certainly NOT from scripture. From the 7th seal to the 7th vial will be the 7 years of the 70th week.

No. It will be a little over a year. It will be one year from the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal to the time when Jesus leaves  heaven with his armies.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

God begins his wrath at the 6th seal,

Wrath cannot begin until the 7th seal is opened.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

before the Week,

Week begins with a confirming of the covenant, which opens the 1st seal.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

and His wrath is still going strong in the vials in chapter 16,

Correct. And yet you do not understand that His wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. What you see in the vials is just different view of thing that happen during wrath.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

seven years later.

Wrath only last a little over a year.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

This is why we disagree on almost every point.

We disagree on almost every point because you do not understand what you are reading. Revelation reads like Genesis 7. How many floods are there? How many times does Genesis 7 give different views of the same flood? 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You don't know that the church has been waiting at the 5th seal for the entire church age, waiting for the final church age martyr to be killed.

You are correct. I don't know that. I know that the seals are the final week and have not been opened. The seals are the time of Jacobs trouble. Jacob had two brides.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

Y0u don't know that the church age is from the first seal to the 5th seal.

You are correct. I don't know that. The seals are not opened. When those seals are opened there will not be any going down to the grocery store and getting your favorite food. You should be noticing wars and rumors of wars, times when the shelves have been empty. Do you remember lookning for food and TP? You should have noticed Covid and other pestilence. This is the beginning. The seals will soon be open. 

Luke 21

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

These things have begun to come to pass. Jesus is coming soon. You should be watching. You should be ready. You should be praying that you are worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Other scriptures that actual mention Christ's coming prove you are mistaken. Christ will "come" (but only to the air) for the catching up of the church, and that will happen just before God's wrath begins. (At the 6th seal.) 

Church is already in heaven. See Rev 5.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John shows us His coming to Armageddon will happen after the 70th week has finished, in Revelation 19.

This occurs at the end of the vials. And if you understood you would know that it happens at the end of the trumpets. Vials and trumpet are the wrath of God. 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For His comings, these passages carry FAR more "weight" than a passage you have to guess at. No one knows who those 24 elders are.

I don't need to know who the 24 elder are. I just need to see the crowns which tells me Jesus has come. I get verification in Rev 5.

[The Light]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


How is it possible for the END TIMES RAPTURED CHURCH to be in heaven before the Lamb is?

How is it possible for these verses to happen after the 7th seal is opened?

Revelation 12

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

When you understand the answer to my question, your question will be answered.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Other scriptures that actual mention Christ's coming prove you are mistaken. Christ will "come" (but only to the air) for the catching up of the church, and that will happen just before God's wrath begins. (At the 6th seal.) 

 HOW ARE THE DETAILS LINING UP FOR YOU?  ANY CONFLICTS?  HAVING TO MAKE COMPROMISES LEFT AND RIGHT, AN EXCUSE FOR THIS AND ANOTHER FOR THAT.  How tiring that must be. 

CHRIST WILL COME AND/OR MANIFEST HIMSELF TO A SAVED SOUL WHEN A SAVED SOUL DIES THE COMMON DEATH AND IS RAISED UP TO HEAVEN, WHEN THEY FOLLOW HIM. 

CHRIST WILL COME AND GATHER THAT SAVED SOUL UNTO HIMSELF, NO ANGELS GATHERING SOULS FROM ALL OF HEAVEN AND EARTH.  JUST A SAVED SOUL GOING TO BE WHERE HE IS.  SOME OF THEM WILL HAVE BEEN BEHEADED AND WILL GO UNDER THE ALTAR.  SOME WILL GO TO THE 'RESTING' PLACES HE WENT TO PREPARE. 

BUT THE SAVED SOUL WILL 
FOLLOW HIM. 

So DON'T BE GRIEVED WHEN SOMEONE DIES, DON'T BE LIKE THE HEATHEN AND THINK YOUR LOVED ONE GOES TO HELL FOREVER OR TO AWAIT THE RETURN OF CHRIST,

COMFORT YOURSELF KNOWING THAT 

AS JESUS DIED AND ROSE, EVEN SO THEM.  AND THEY ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM.  


Christ returns at the 7th trump  Because Himself the Lord with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first

BUT the trumps ARE NOT handed out until the 7th seal is opened. 
1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

How can Christ WHO RETURNS WHEN A TRUMP SOUNDS come before TRUMPS are handed out?


What does it look like when Christ LEAVES HEAVEN?  

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Can we be sure of the events that PRECEDE Heaven opening?  YES
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

WHAT is happening on earth BEFORE heaven opens?  WOE to the earth SATAN has been cast out.  WHAT HAPPENS on earth when heaven opens?  AN EARTHQUAKE.  Heaven opens up when SATAN and his angels are cast to the earth.  LIKE UNTIMELY FIGS shaken...WOE to the earth  

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:30-32 - And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.   And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Does THAT SOUND LIKE THE ARMIES OF HEAVEN?   

Haggai 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land  

Isaiah 34:4 - And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 


14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

HEAVEN HAS TO BE OPENING UP FOR THEM TO KNOW, THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME.  AND WHEN DOES HIS DAY COME?  

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

RATHER THAN TELL ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE, SHOW ME.  

AND IF WHAT I BELIEVE YOU THINK TO BE INCORRECT,

SHOW ME THE CONFLICT TAKING PLACE THAT SHOUTS OUT AT YOU 'THAT IS WRONG'

Oh the THINKS WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET INTO, IF WE CAN GET EVER GET OFF THE STARTING LINE
 

[The Light]

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Christ returns at the last trump.

Yes, Christ does return at the last trump. That occurs at the 6th seal. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and is not referring to the 7th trumpet blown by an angel. That said, Jesus does return at the end of the trumpets of wrath to set up His kingdom on earth and there is a judgement of the dead. In other words Christ returns at the 6th seal for a harvest before wrath and God returns at the end of the trumpets.

Here is Christ returning for the harvest which occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE wrath.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The trumps aren't even handed to the angels UNTIL the 7th seal is opened. 

So how can Christ come at the '6th seal', when He comes at the 7th trump, which is in the 7th Seal?

 

What you are not understanding is that Christ comes at the 6th seal for the SECOND harvest, the fall fruit harvest. That is why you see a great multitude in Revelation 7 BEFORE wrath which is before the seventh seal is opened.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

What you are also not understanding is that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is NOT the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets blown by angels.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. These signs appear also at the 6th seal. That should tell you what is happening and WHEN. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. From these verses you should be able to determine that the tribulatiion is over and the wrath of God is about to begin.

Edited March 19, 2023 by The Light

[DeighAnn]

16 minutes ago, The Light said:

How is it possible for these verses to happen after the 7th seal is opened?

Revelation 12

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

When you understand the answer to my question, your question will be answered.

BECAUSE IT IS A BOOK OF INFORMATION. 

The information given in 12 is nothing more than an overview of what has been happening throughout time.  From his kingdom in heaven BEFORE the fall up until the one coming...but


 If you believe the Book of Revelation is written in order, discussion over, with a quick question for you


IF the Church was RAPTURED back in 95AD,

before Christ was crucified and the LAMB found in heaven WORTHY to open the seals,

because if the CHURCH is seen in heaven in 95AD by the year 102AD IT IS ALL OVER.

HOW are we here? EVEN the LOF is past.  This age has ended.  Satan was bound and released and the GWTJ has taken place all evil is gone and we are in the NHNE.

NOW, can you explain HOW THAT IS POSSIBLE? 

 

[DeighAnn]

12 minutes ago, The Light said:

Yes, Christ does return at the last trump. That occurs at the 6th seal. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and is not referring to the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

So, you ADDED a trump?  I rest my case

[DeighAnn]

13 minutes ago, The Light said:

hat you are not understanding is that Christ comes at the 6th seal for the SECOND harvest, the fall fruit harvest. That is why you see a great multitude in Revelation 7 BEFORE wrath which is before the seventh seal is opened.

I SEE A GREAT MULTITUDE IN HEAVEN BECAUSE 

CHRIST IS THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT.  Just like it is written.  

I see a GREAT multitude because Christ went to SHARE THE GOOD NEWS and when HE ASCENDED he led the captivity captive. 

AKA those who WERE in hell paying the wages of sin who REPENTED, for the kingdom of heaven WAS THERE and being preached, now

falling under the NEW COVENANT that could do what the Law could not had their sins forgiven and they were washed clean

and being made clean

HELL COULD NO LONGER HOLD THEM.  SO THEIR GRAVES WERE OPENED, again exactly as it is written, 

and when HE ASCENDED so did they. 

and not just all those who died under the law, 

BUT under the new covenant ALL THOSE 'gentiles' who had died ALSO HEARD THE GOOD NEWS.  

Want to see them in heaven?  

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Know why they were elders and NOT THE not to be RAPTURED for another 2000 years CHURCH now?
 

[The Light]

20 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

BECAUSE IT IS A BOOK OF INFORMATION. 

The information given in 12 is nothing more than an overview of what has been happening throughout time.  From his kingdom in heaven BEFORE the fall up until the one coming...but


 If you believe the Book of Revelation is written in order, discussion over, with a quick question for you


IF the Church was RAPTURED back in 95AD,

before Christ was crucified and the LAMB found in heaven WORTHY to open the seals,

because if the CHURCH is seen in heaven in 95AD by the year 102AD IT IS ALL OVER.

HOW are we here? EVEN the LOF is past.  This age has ended.  Satan was bound and released and the GWTJ has taken place all evil is gone and we are in the NHNE.

NOW, can you explain HOW THAT IS POSSIBLE? 

 

Hold the phone. So you were able to understand Revelation 12 clearly enough. I told you if you understood those verses in Revelation 12 you would have your answer. 

Let me ask you again. How is it possible that those verses in Revelation 12 happen AFTER the seals are opened. If you understand that, you have your answer. So why are you carrying on about possibilities of this, that and the other when you already have the answer that should keep you from asking these questions.