The Beast Is Not a (Seven-headed!) Man

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

"Sweet", as we colloquially say in NZ.

You might have noticed the metaphorical morphing as I call it, of things John is shown while in vision mode, that change from one symbolic image to another. This is commonplace in the Bible and Paul mixes his metaphors more than once (1Co 3:9  For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building)   

Rev 17:1  Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters.

Rev 17:9  This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

The different images symbolise different aspects of the same thing, the result being a composite picture of what is being described using metaphors to carry the meaning across.

Here we have the "many waters" metaphor of verse 1 above explained, this being after the seven heads morph into the seven mountains of verse 9, on which the woman sits, and which are matched with the seven kings or kingdoms of verse 10.

Rev 17:15  Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Rev 17:10  There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

The composite picture then is of Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth, being supported by the beast whose seven mountain head kingdoms rise up from the sea of sinful humanity to oppress whomever, particularly God's People. (Isa 57:20-21  But the wicked are like the troubled sea, When it cannot rest, Whose waters cast up mire and dirt.  (21)  "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked.")
 

 

 

 

Okay. Your argument is good and I'm happy to leave it like that. I am the first to find allegory in obscure scripture, but when scripture says what something is, I restrict myself to just that. You are freer and might see more. To me, the passage we discuss is transmitting the identity of the Whore and her demise. So this is my understanding.

Verse 1 states the subject - "the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters". Almost like you, the "sea" is the Nations (Isa,17:12, Ezek.26.3). This is confirmed in verse 15. A whore is a woman who fornicates with multiple men but "cleaves" to none.

Verse 2 - She has intimate relations with the nations but is loyal to none. She operates at the highest level of government.

Verse 3 - Her vehicle for her trade is the Beast. He already is ensconced in the Temple for he blasphemes already (2nd Thess.2:3-4). He claims kingship for "scarlet" is royal

Verse 4 - She is a religion. Her covering is of the same material with which the Tabernacle, Temple, Church and New Jerusalem are built. But the covering is only skin deep. She looks like God's building but is a counterfeit

Verse 5 - She is a "mother". That is, she has brought forth seed like her. Her name is "Babylon". This indicates that her religion comes either from Nimrod's Babel or Nebuchadnezzar's - or both

Verse 6 - she has killed TWO types of God's people. (i) "Saints". This could be Israelites at the captivity, but is not guaranteed for the faithful "saints" were sealed for protection at Nebuchadnezzar's time. (ii) "AND" - a conjunction. She has killed saints of the New Testament. Without a name we must go by the other evidence. Rome was the greatest persecutor of Christians, but I do not think that the evidence up to now is sufficient to name Rome.

Verse 8 describes the Beast. The grammar indicates that he has lived, died and will ascend out of Hades, after which he will enter the Lake of Fire. A second time does the grammar indicate that the beast has lived already, has died and will be resurrected.

Verse 9 needs wisdom. The Woman has seven heads (twice mentioned). Scripture says what they are. No interpretation is needed. they are seven hills or seven "elevated grounds". The verse is stand-alone. The thought is complete. She sits on a Beast for fornicating with world governments, but her PLACE is a place with seven hills - period. Of all the world powers since the flood, only one has its Capital on seven hills - Rome.

Verse 10 introduces a new thought. It introduces seven kings but she does not sit on them. "AND" is a conjunction. It is cumulative, copulative and sequential. The "and" means the writer has introduced a new and separate item. This is important because the seven become eight and the Beast is one of the first five and is the eighth. They must be Roman Caesars.

Verse 11 must be a king. He must have reigned in John's time and being the eighth he carries the number of resurrection (Christ rose on the morrow after the Sabbath)

Verse 12 introduces ten OTHER kings. This could only be possible if the seven kings reigned at John's time and the ten kings reigned at the time that the Beast is resurrected. John confirms this by saying that in his time these ten had not yet been made kings.

Verse 16 presents us with the solution to why in Mathew 13 the tares are harvested and burnt BEFORE the Wheat. The Beast is a king who is a political leader. But the Dragon wants all worship to go via the Beast to him. The Beast, in order to be worshiped must do away with the Whore who is bedecked with materials of the Church. The ten kings that joined to give the Beast Political sovereignty, now destroy Nimrod's religion.

Verse 18 "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." We have TWO cities alluded to. (i) The evidence of RELIGION is that the City is Babylon. Scripture has named her. (ii) The evidence of rulership is that it is ROME. The Beast is a Caesar and the blood of the saints of Jesus was, and still is, being shed by Rome.

History has shown that since the flood, six world powers have ruled. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Daniel confirms that Rome will be the fourth after Babylon and then comes Christ's Kingdom (Chapter 2). The language, customs and form of government was different in each world power. But the RELIGION was the same - the religion of Nimrod. Thus, we have, in Chapter 17 which shows the RELIGIOUS side, the RELIGION is Babylon but the political power is Rome. Once established POLITICALLY as a king, the Beast gets the ten kings who gave him power to destroy Rome and her daughters. Thus is the Beast accorded all worship.

It is easily researched that Rome calls the shots worldwide. It does so from the pulpit. Its 1.3 billion adherents are settled in nearly every country of the world. It is the single most wealthy entity on earth. No political leader in the world snubs Rome. Even the President of the USA must consider the Roman Church in his election campaign - and after. Rome is "bedecked" with the trappings of Christianity, but still campaigns against Christendom. She has tried to get Jerusalem by the crusades and through inquisition has murdered more Christians than even Mao. The Jesuit and Dominican orders are as efficient as the CIA and the Gestapo.

[Michael37]

39 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Verse 10 introduces a new thought. It introduces seven kings but she does not sit on them.

Rev 17:9-10  "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.  (10)  There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

Observe that the metaphorical depiction of Satan as a dragon shows him with seven crowns on his seven heads, but the beast from the sea is depicted with ten crowns, which are on its ten horns as distinct from the dragon whose crowns are on its heads only.

From this it can be deduced that the while the dragon has sovereign control (heads = control, crowns = sovereignty), it is to the beast that sovereign enforcement is given ( horns = enforcement).

One may ask," Why do the seven heads of the 1st beast morph into mountains in verse 9, specifically mountains on which the Great Harlot sits", and then go on to discover that mountains symbolise kingdoms.

Kingdoms as such have kings so it is no stretch to associate the seven demonically controlled mountain head kingdoms with their head or chief demons described in verse 10 as kings.

The dragon has seven crowns, the 1st beast has ten, three of them being derived from the charagma of the thērion

Blessings from Michael37.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Rev 17:9-10  "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.  (10)  There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

Observe that the metaphorical depiction of Satan as a dragon shows him with seven crowns on his seven heads, but the beast from the sea is depicted with ten crowns, which are on its ten horns as distinct from the dragon whose crowns are on its heads only.

From this it can be deduced that the while the dragon has sovereign control (heads = control, crowns = sovereignty), it is to the beast that sovereign enforcement is given ( horns = enforcement).

One may ask," Why do the seven heads of the 1st beast morph into mountains in verse 9, specifically mountains on which the Great Harlot sits", and then go on to discover that mountains symbolise kingdoms.

Kingdoms as such have kings so it is no stretch to associate the seven demonically controlled mountain head kingdoms with their head or chief demons described in verse 10 as kings.

The dragon has seven crowns, the 1st beast has ten, three of them being derived from the charagma of the thērion

Blessings from Michael37.

I like your approach even if  I differ in some points. What this book of "signs" (Rev.1:1) shows clearly is that a symbol or a number can be more than one thing. My main restriction is that it must come from scripture. The number seven obviously can have more than one meaning. There is the heptadic structure of scripture in general. Then there is 70 "sevens" in Daniel 9. Then there is the Sabbath and then it can mean the full number in time. And then some clever students of scripture will discover that it means multiple things and there follows a time of confusion till thy realize the BOTH are valid.

I love this disciplined research.

Anyway, brother. For me, the research is never over. In a year I might come back with a new theory because I saw more, or another's arguments were better.

[Marilyn C]

On 12/4/2022 at 9:12 AM, Walter Goraj jr said:

What do you think about Israel? Don't they control anything or play any role?

Hi Walter,

Yes, Israel is God`s focal point in relation to the nations. After the Body of Christ has gone to its setting in glory, then the focus will be Israel and the nations. We know that Satan will be attempting to get rid of Israel and control the nations of the world.  

So, after God deals with the northern army, (Russia, Iran, etc) then a Peace negotiator steps forward and makes a peace deal with Israel. Being Islamic of course Israel doesn`t see him as their Messiah. But they know that it is very close to His coming. However, the world gets deceived by this man and eventually proclaiming him as their Global Leader.

God only gives this person a short time to rule and then the Lord comes in great power and glory to deliver Israel and judge the nations.

(If you want scriptures, I can give them.)

[Marilyn C]

On 12/4/2022 at 11:08 AM, AdHoc said:

 

Verse 10 introduces a new thought. It introduces seven kings but she does not sit on them. "AND" is a conjunction. It is cumulative, copulative and sequential. The "and" means the writer has introduced a new and separate item. This is important because the seven become eight and the Beast is one of the first five and is the eighth. They must be Roman Caesars.

 

Hi Ad Hoc,

May I politely suggest you get your head out of history and look at what is here today. 

The 7 heads are Global Leader - 5 + 1 + 1. 

Now the G20 has a rotating leadership of 5, (FIVE). When that is finished (fallen) then I suggest that Europe`s new President will lead and finally the anti-Christ as the 7th consecutive global leader of the world premier forum. By then, the CBCD`s & ID`s will control people through the IMF and the Political leader will deceive the West, thus controlling East and West of the world. 

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

May I politely suggest you get your head out of history and look at what is here today. 

The 7 heads are Global Leader - 5 + 1 + 1. 

Now the G20 has a rotating leadership of 5, (FIVE). When that is finished (fallen) then I suggest that Europe`s new President will lead and finally the anti-Christ as the 7th consecutive global leader of the world premier forum. By then, the CBCD`s & ID`s will control people through the IMF and the Political leader will deceive the West, thus controlling East and West of the world. 

You're too polite, but I must decline. Language is given by God to communicate ideas. In order to do this accurately and consistently we make rules called grammar. So we read what John wrote in AD 96;

 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (Re 17:7–11)

Verse 8 tells us that the Beast "WAS, AND IS NOT". That is, in 96 AD he had lived (past tense) and at the time of writing "IS NOT".

Verse 9 gives the PLACE where the Whore sits. It is a PLACE of seven hills (lit. "raised areas of ground).

Verse 10 starts a new thought - seven kings. Five are fallen. The Greek means, "fallen from a high place to a low one". then the grammar says "ONE IS". This is present tense for John, the author. That is, one "IS" in 96 AD.

Verse 11; Now, if the beast "WAS", he is one of the five kings that have fallen. But this Beast will come again via the bottomless pit and be the eighth. 

Going according to the grammar precisely, the proposition presents no problems. God selected a bracket of seven kings who ruled during John's life. Five had died, one was reigning and one was still to come. And one of the five would, at a later date, emerge from the bottomless pit and rule again. He is called the eighth of the seven - NOT as the eighth OVERALL. The bottomless pit presents no problems for we have TWO PLACES in the heart of the earth, ONE which contains the SOULS of dead men - Hades, and ANOTHER that contains SPIRITS - TARTAROO, containing angels which misbehaved at Noah's time (1st Pet.3:19-20, 2nd Pet.2:4). The only objection to this is that the Beast should only be resurrected at the White Throne. But for the sake of this test for men Daniel 7:25 tells us that; 

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The power to change the time of his resurrection is given to him by God. And the TIME in history is also given - the TIME of the Great Tribulation - 3½ years.

Needless to say, your scenario meets none of these prophecies. You have men living now. You have no kings. You have no eighth who is of the first five. You have no bottomless pit. You have no resurrection. You do not have the first five living before John's time in Patmos. You do not have one ruling NOW. And you have seven as the G7, but scripture has only one sitting on seven hills.

There is only one sure witness to prophecy - HISTORY.

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You're too polite, but I must decline. Language is given by God to communicate ideas. In order to do this accurately and consistently we make rules called grammar. So we read what John wrote in AD 96;

 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (Re 17:7–11)

Verse 8 tells us that the Beast "WAS, AND IS NOT". That is, in 96 AD he had lived (past tense) and at the time of writing "IS NOT".

Verse 9 gives the PLACE where the Whore sits. It is a PLACE of seven hills (lit. "raised areas of ground).

Verse 10 starts a new thought - seven kings. Five are fallen. The Greek means, "fallen from a high place to a low one". then the grammar says "ONE IS". This is present tense for John, the author. That is, one "IS" in 96 AD.

Verse 11; Now, if the beast "WAS", he is one of the five kings that have fallen. But this Beast will come again via the bottomless pit and be the eighth. 

Going according to the grammar precisely, the proposition presents no problems. God selected a bracket of seven kings who ruled during John's life. Five had died, one was reigning and one was still to come. And one of the five would, at a later date, emerge from the bottomless pit and rule again. He is called the eighth of the seven - NOT as the eighth OVERALL. The bottomless pit presents no problems for we have TWO PLACES in the heart of the earth, ONE which contains the SOULS of dead men - Hades, and ANOTHER that contains SPIRITS - TARTAROO, containing angels which misbehaved at Noah's time (1st Pet.3:19-20, 2nd Pet.2:4). The only objection to this is that the Beast should only be resurrected at the White Throne. But for the sake of this test for men Daniel 7:25 tells us that; 

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The power to change the time of his resurrection is given to him by God. And the TIME in history is also given - the TIME of the Great Tribulation - 3½ years.

Needless to say, your scenario meets none of these prophecies. You have men living now. You have no kings. You have no eighth who is of the first five. You have no bottomless pit. You have no resurrection. You do not have the first five living before John's time in Patmos. You do not have one ruling NOW. And you have seven as the G7, but scripture has only one sitting on seven hills.

There is only one sure witness to prophecy - HISTORY.

Hi Ad Hoc,

I hear what you are saying and we agree on some things. Now, may I say that `The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.`(Rev. 19: 10) 

Looking at the book of Revelation it is an unveiling (revelation) of the Lord Jesus as He is known in the heavenly realm. It is NOT a revelation of John or of his time but of JESUS. There are 4 visons of the Lord which carry through the 4 ministries He had while on earth a recorded in the 4 gospels.

The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person.  There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry of Christ which He exercised when on earth. His Kinship was expressed in Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke, & His Judgeship in John.                                                                                                                                                       

Vision 1. Christ - Head of the Body, (Rev. 1 - 3)  This reveals the empowered Son of Man as the Sovereign Administrator.

                          `in His right hand He held 7 stars.`

Vision 2.   CHRIST -   HEIR.  (Rev. 4 – 7) This reveals the enthroned Son of Man as the Supreme Executor.

               `in His right hand He held the 7 sealed book.`

Vision 3.    CHRIST -  MEDIATOR.  (Rev. 8 – 13) This reveals the exalted Son of Man as the Stately Mediator.

                             `in His hand is a sacred censor.`

Vision 4.    CHRIST -  JUDGE.  (Rev. 14 – 22) This reveals the entitled Son of Man as the Sublime Adjudicator.

                                `in His hand is a sharp sickle.`

 

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are over three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.

This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

 

Thus said, chapter 17 of Revelation is in the 4th vision of Christ as the Judge. He is judging the final Gentile Global Government. This is the time frame, not in ancient history. 

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

I hear what you are saying and we agree on some things. Now, may I say that `The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.`(Rev. 19: 10) 

Looking at the book of Revelation it is an unveiling (revelation) of the Lord Jesus as He is known in the heavenly realm. It is NOT a revelation of John or of his time but of JESUS. There are 4 visons of the Lord which carry through the 4 ministries He had while on earth a recorded in the 4 gospels.

The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person.  There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry of Christ which He exercised when on earth. His Kinship was expressed in Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke, & His Judgeship in John.                                                                                                                                                       

Vision 1. Christ - Head of the Body, (Rev. 1 - 3)  This reveals the empowered Son of Man as the Sovereign Administrator.

                          `in His right hand He held 7 stars.`

Vision 2.   CHRIST -   HEIR.  (Rev. 4 – 7) This reveals the enthroned Son of Man as the Supreme Executor.

               `in His right hand He held the 7 sealed book.`

Vision 3.    CHRIST -  MEDIATOR.  (Rev. 8 – 13) This reveals the exalted Son of Man as the Stately Mediator.

                             `in His hand is a sacred censor.`

Vision 4.    CHRIST -  JUDGE.  (Rev. 14 – 22) This reveals the entitled Son of Man as the Sublime Adjudicator.

                                `in His hand is a sharp sickle.`

 

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are over three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.

This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

 

Thus said, chapter 17 of Revelation is in the 4th vision of Christ as the Judge. He is judging the final Gentile Global Government. This is the time frame, not in ancient history. 

Thanks for the reply. Various scholars of scripture peg natural and logical divisions of scripture. I do so myself. So I have no objection to the above divisions. Where we differ is in the "Predominant aim of Revelation". And again I cannot object because Revelation does reveal His glorious Person. I rather understand that the single aim of Revelation is the events surrounding the "Apocalypse" of Jesus. The Greek word in Revelation 1:1 means "The Revealing" or the "Unveiling" in the sense of a stage with the chief actor standing behind a curtain. At a given moment to the Curtain is hoisted and the audience is REVEALED the chief actor.

The emphasis Revelation is not on Christ's moral glory (although it is shown), but on Christ's POSITION and RANK as new Sovereign of the earth. If we were ordered to seek out one text to explain this I think Matthew 24 

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here, Christ is REVEALED. The clouds must melt and part. A Man is REVEALED. It is like lightning - 600 times brighter than the sun. It is WITH POWER AND GLORY. And why have the vultures gathered? Because this one dos not come with forgiveness and healing. He comes as a killing King. He is the warrior-Son of David. Before the day ends, the bodies of renowned soldiers, who gave their allegiance to the Beast, will form a bloody and soggy carpet underfoot covering the 100 square miles of Jezreel.

The REVEALING of Jesus starts in Chapter 1 where He is revealed with fiery eyes and a two edged sword in His mouth with feet clad in brass for judgment. The REVEALING of Jesus is of a very dissatisfied Head of seven representative Churches, five of which must be rebuked. The REVEALING of Jesus is of the new King who is on His own throne with Seals to open - Seals which will spread pain and fear among the inhabitants of the earth. And this REVEALING of Jesus ends with a City having the glory of God and which rules forever ON EARTH.

I judge that this is the meaning of "Apocalypse".

[WilliamL]

On 11/30/2022 at 5:30 PM, Marilyn C said:

`I saw ONE of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded........and he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.` (Rev. 13: 3 & 5)

`Heads` refer to leaders. Thus, the last leader of the Global Government.  

A presumption, on your part, that it has to be the "last leader." No reason to believe that textually.

[WilliamL]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:47 AM, AdHoc said:

If scripture says that the Beast is a man multiple times, we must believe it.

So where in Revelation does it say that "the Beast that comes up out of the abyss" is a man?

Nowhere.