The Beast Is Not a (Seven-headed!) Man

[WilliamL]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:34 AM, AdHoc said:

What is a "collective spirit?"

Answered in the original post:

On 11/30/2022 at 1:59 PM, WilliamL said:

Now, we know that the Holy Spirit can inhabit many people. Also, that God took the spirit that was upon Moses and divided it among 70 elders. Num. 11:16f. Also, that Jesus addressed the “we are many” spirit Legion as “thou” and “thy” (singular), and it answered him in the singular, saying “my name is Legion,” not “our name”:

The heavenly powers over nations are collective spirits of those nations: each nation has its own spiritual head/leader. They manifest on earth through human leaders: the ruling spirit of that king/emperor etc. is a heavenly sar. Daniel 10 and 11 make this abundantly clear.

But there are other even more powerful spirits that rule over these nation-spirits, being the Beast and Satan.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So where in Revelation does it say that "the Beast that comes up out of the abyss" is a man?

Nowhere.

May the reader judge.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Answered in the original post:

The heavenly powers over nations are collective spirits of those nations: each nation has its own spiritual head/leader. They manifest on earth through human leaders: the ruling spirit of that king/emperor etc. is a heavenly sar. Daniel 10 and 11 make this abundantly clear.

But there are other even more powerful spirits that rule over these nation-spirits, being the Beast and Satan.

Let's play by your rules. Where in the Bible is the term "collective spirit" and if not ever mentioned how does "collective", a plural, fit with "spirit" singular? And in your second sentence above you've changed to "collective spiritS" (plural). In your third you make the leader singular.

I am perplexed.

[WilliamL]

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

how does "collective", a plural, fit with "spirit" singular?

Go back to the first post and read more closely about Legion.

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

And in your second sentence above you've changed to "collective spiritS" (plural).        

Plural because it speaks of multiple collective spirits, there being of course many different nations. Should be obvious in the context.

[AdHoc]

46 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Go back to the first post and read more closely about Legion.

Plural because it speaks of multiple collective spirits, there being of course many different nations. Should be obvious in the context.

Okay. Thanks. I'll accept that. We'll just have to agree to differ then. I read the word "he" 12 times in Revelation Chapter 13 - most of which refer to the Beast. The Oxford dictionary gives the definition of "he" as a pronoun - singular, masculine. And then Chapter 13 ends with

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

This agrees with 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

It is unlikely that nearly 50 of the best scholars on these languages agreed on this KJV rendering, and no bible I know of has anything opposing this rendering.

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks. I'll accept that. We'll just have to agree to differ then. I read the word "he" 12 times in Revelation Chapter 13 - most of which refer to the Beast. The Oxford dictionary gives the definition of "he" as a pronoun - singular, masculine.

But "he" is also used scripturally when referring to Satan, Gabriel, and other angels, so one cannot presume only a human use in Rev. 13 would apply.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for the reply. Various scholars of scripture peg natural and logical divisions of scripture. I do so myself. So I have no objection to the above divisions. Where we differ is in the "Predominant aim of Revelation". And again I cannot object because Revelation does reveal His glorious Person. I rather understand that the single aim of Revelation is the events surrounding the "Apocalypse" of Jesus. The Greek word in Revelation 1:1 means "The Revealing" or the "Unveiling" in the sense of a stage with the chief actor standing behind a curtain. At a given moment to the Curtain is hoisted and the audience is REVEALED the chief actor.

The emphasis Revelation is not on Christ's moral glory (although it is shown), but on Christ's POSITION and RANK as new Sovereign of the earth. If we were ordered to seek out one text to explain this I think Matthew 24 

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here, Christ is REVEALED. The clouds must melt and part. A Man is REVEALED. It is like lightning - 600 times brighter than the sun. It is WITH POWER AND GLORY. And why have the vultures gathered? Because this one dos not come with forgiveness and healing. He comes as a killing King. He is the warrior-Son of David. Before the day ends, the bodies of renowned soldiers, who gave their allegiance to the Beast, will form a bloody and soggy carpet underfoot covering the 100 square miles of Jezreel.

The REVEALING of Jesus starts in Chapter 1 where He is revealed with fiery eyes and a two edged sword in His mouth with feet clad in brass for judgment. The REVEALING of Jesus is of a very dissatisfied Head of seven representative Churches, five of which must be rebuked. The REVEALING of Jesus is of the new King who is on His own throne with Seals to open - Seals which will spread pain and fear among the inhabitants of the earth. And this REVEALING of Jesus ends with a City having the glory of God and which rules forever ON EARTH.

I judge that this is the meaning of "Apocalypse".

Hi Ad Hoc,

It is great when we see things together from God`s perspective. I agree that Jesus will come with great power and great glory. What an unveiling that will be. However, that is not the final picture for He is revealed finally as the heavenly bridegroom, to connect with the glorious city of the faithful.

And that is the 4th requirement of the kinsman-redeemer. (see book of Ruth)

1. To be kin.

2. To obey the law.

3. To service the debt.

4. To consummate the marriage.

Marilyn.

[AdHoc]

35 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

But "he" is also used scripturally when referring to Satan, Gabriel, and other angels, so one cannot presume only a human use in Rev. 13 would apply.

"presume"? Why did you not mention my argument?

But I will answer yours:

Because in Daniel 9 "he" is PRINCE of the People

Because he ascends out of the bottomless pit but scripture says that any angels down there are "reserved in chains for judgment" which is at the White Throne 1,000 years later when Satan is incarcerated.

Because he was one of five kings who have "fallen" and an angel cannot die

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

It is great when we see things together from God`s perspective. I agree that Jesus will come with great power and great glory. What an unveiling that will be. However, that is not the final picture for He is revealed finally as the heavenly bridegroom, to connect with the glorious city of the faithful.

And that is the 4th requirement of the kinsman-redeemer. (see book of Ruth)

1. To be kin.

2. To obey the law.

3. To service the debt.

4. To consummate the marriage.

Marilyn.

Yeah. This is one of the greatest revelations of scripture. That God would go to such lengths for a Bride for His Son - and a Moabitess at that*. I pray every day, not for a Kinsman-Redeemer, for that is a given, but for an infusion of His LOVE so that I can love Him with a worthy love.

*The Moabite was not to enter the congregation of the Lord till the tenth generation. How do you think she, as a natural Moabitess, got in? (It's not a trick question. If you've studied it I'd like to share your answer. I have one but it has never really satisfied me.)

[Marilyn C]

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Yeah. This is one of the greatest revelations of scripture. That God would go to such lengths for a Bride for His Son - and a Moabitess at that*. I pray every day, not for a Kinsman-Redeemer, for that is a given, but for an infusion of His LOVE so that I can love Him with a worthy love.

*The Moabite was not to enter the congregation of the Lord till the tenth generation. How do you think she, as a natural Moabitess, got in? (It's not a trick question. If you've studied it I'd like to share your answer. I have one but it has never really satisfied me.)

I agree that it is one of the great revelations, God`s great eternal purpose symbolized by a `bride.

Now, to your question. I hadn`t remembered about the tenth generation. Thanks. What comes to mind as why Ruth didn`t have this, was that Boaz `covered` her. Boaz, her nearest kinsman, (after the other reneged), he obeyed the law in front of the elders, then paid the debt and bought the land and finally married Ruth. Thus, Ruth did not have to wait ten generations but came under the overing of Boaz who took her for his wife and continued the lineage of Naomi`s son.

I would be interested in your thoughts too.

Marilyn.