Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

Do you know how to read all the translations of Gen 1:2 on biblehub. 99% of the translations have it as was.

And they have all missed the whole point, which is that there is no such thing as an object that is "formless" or "without form".  How many times do you need to be reminded of this fact?  Plus, you can't even defend that notion with any example.

When I said 59% of all occurrences of that exact same verb form of "hayah" I certainly didn't mean just look at all the English translations of ONE verse.

I meant how that exact same verb form is translated in all the other occurrences in the OT.  No wonder you aren't getting the point.  You don't even understand what I did to get to the 59%.

All you've looked at is how all the translations translated the verb in 1 verse.

My search involved 111 different verses, all with the exact same verb form.  I now have to wonder if you even understand what that means.

So, in 59% of the 111 verses that contain the exact same verb form as in v.2, 59% were translated as "became/become".  

1 hour ago, BeyondET said:

For the forth time Jewish people don't teach a earth that became a wasteland nor does the verse in Hebrew the original language of the Bible speak of it.

I don't care what anyone teaches.  I care a whole lot about what the Bible says, and I learn what the Bible says by looking at many different verses that contain the exact same verb form to see how that specific verb form is translated throughout the OT.

You just looked at 28 English translations of ONE verse.  I looked at 111 verses.

You haven't even begun to do a real search.  No wonder you are confused and can't follow my posts.

[DeighAnn]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:53 AM, FreeGrace said:

Again, NO object can be "unformed".  Every object HAS a form.  you haven't proven otherwise.  And no besieging army can make "the land" to be "unformed".

Rather, a besieging army DESTROYS the land.  Never leaves "the land" unformed.

 

I AGREE, NO ARMY LEAVES THE LAND ''''''TOHU''''''

 

Jeremiah 4 23

I beheld the earth and indeed TOHU and WA BOHU and the heavens and no LIGHT

8414. tohu ►
Strong's Concordance
tohu: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
Original Word: תֹּהוּ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: tohu
Phonetic Spelling: (to'-hoo)
Definition: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness


I beheld the earth and indeed TOHU and WA BOHU and the heavens and no LIGHT

LET ALONE ''''''BOHU'''''
922. bohu ►
Strong's Concordance
bohu: emptiness
Original Word: בֹּהוּ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: bohu
Phonetic Spelling: (bo'-hoo)
Definition: emptiness


I beheld the earth and indeed TOHU and WA BOHU and the heavens and no LIGHT

and they most CERTAINLY HAVE NO EFFECT ON SOME 'PLACE' HAVING A SUN OR THE MORNING....
216. or ►
Strong's Concordance
or: a light
Original Word: אוֹר
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: or
Phonetic Spelling: (ore)
Definition: a light

bright, clear, day, lightning, morning, sun
From 'owr; illumination or (concrete) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.) -- bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.


SO LIKE YOU YOURSELF SAID, KEEP SAYING

AND I AGREE

And no besieging army can make "the land" to be "unformed".


Hence JEREMIAH 4:23 not being about the ARMY DESTROYING JERUSALEM

[JimmyB]

57 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Everyone mentions what they plan to build.  How is that even close to creating the universe.  Gen 1:1 SAYS that God created the universe/earth.  What it doesn't say is that God began thinking about making various things with which to create the universe.  That seems to be about what you think "create" means.

Please read v.1 carefully.  It doesn't say God began to create.  It says He created.  And Psa 33:9 says He spoke into existence.

No, it is a statement of fact.  He created the universe.  He didn't begin to think about what He needed in order to put the universe together.  You know, like matter, molecules, etc.

How do you know what God was or was not thinking?  You are digging yourself a bigger hole.

Edited July 11, 2023 by JimmyB

[JimmyB]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Wow.  Really?  Do you know how to do a search of the exact same verb form on that site?  Only 4% of the time the verb form was translated as "was".  THE MOST COMMON translation of that verb form is "became/become".

The LXX translates Gen 1:2 as "unsightly".  Why do you insist that "without form" is even a real status?  You haven't given any examples of any object that is formless.

Nonsense.  You want to accept a totally bogus transation of "tohu" as "without form" when that condition cannot exist in reality.
And as is, Gen 1:1,2 contradicts Isa 45:18.  And you haven't explained why it isn't.

And you can't explain why God would DECEIVE mankind by creating a universe with apparent age.  

There is no defense for your claims.

Nonsense.  You want to accept a totally bogus transation of "tohu".  There is no defense for your claims.

[NConly]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please clarify?  I know that the exact same verb form in Gen 1:2 is translated as "became/become" in 59% of all occurrences.  I don't know what "41%" refers to.

I just meant if one starts out with 100% and they are sure of 59% that leaves 41%. I think you said 4% was the other translation. with 4% or 59% it tells me it Not Always is it like you say there is room for doubt. It seems you are pushing for the 59% to be treated as 100% but cant be with sure 4% out there, and we still have the 37% not accounted for.

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Everyone mentions what they plan to build.  How is that even close to creating the universe.  Gen 1:1 SAYS that God created the universe/earth.  What it doesn't say is that God began thinking about making various things with which to create the universe.  That seems to be about what you think "create" means.

Please read v.1 carefully.  It doesn't say God began to create.  It says He created.  And Psa 33:9 says He spoke into existence.

No, it is a statement of fact.  He created the universe.  He didn't begin to think about what He needed in order to put the universe together.  You know, like matter, molecules, etc.

And verse 1 is no different, everyone mentions what they plan to build.

When did you get such a revelation of God's thoughts in the beginning?

[BeyondET]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

And they have all missed the whole point, which is that there is no such thing as an object that is "formless" or "without form".  How many times do you need to be reminded of this fact?  Plus, you can't even defend that notion with any example.

When I said 59% of all occurrences of that exact same verb form of "hayah" I certainly didn't mean just look at all the English translations of ONE verse.

I meant how that exact same verb form is translated in all the other occurrences in the OT.  No wonder you aren't getting the point.  You don't even understand what I did to get to the 59%.

All you've looked at is how all the translations translated the verb in 1 verse.

My search involved 111 different verses, all with the exact same verb form.  I now have to wonder if you even understand what that means.

So, in 59% of the 111 verses that contain the exact same verb form as in v.2, 59% were translated as "became/become".  

I don't care what anyone teaches.  I care a whole lot about what the Bible says, and I learn what the Bible says by looking at many different verses that contain the exact same verb form to see how that specific verb form is translated throughout the OT.

You just looked at 28 English translations of ONE verse.  I looked at 111 verses.

You haven't even begun to do a real search.  No wonder you are confused and can't follow my posts.

All the scholars missed the whole point, yea right, now your chief among scholars?

41% leaves alot room, yet your stuck on 59% like there's not even 41% chance it's not became a wasteland.

A clay cup is formless until it is molded formed into a cup.

Earth was not in the form of a planet in the beginning.

Edited July 11, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

24 minutes ago, NConly said:

I just meant if one starts out with 100% and they are sure of 59% that leaves 41%.

Got it.  Thanks for the clarification.  The "41%" are simply other ways of translating the verb form that is in v.2.

24 minutes ago, NConly said:

I think you said 4% was the other translation.

The 4% represents the percentage of all 111 occurrences in the OT that have the same verb form which was translated as "was".  So "was" is a rather rare translation of the verb form in v.2.  Whereas "became" is THE MOST common translation of the verb form in v.2.  

24 minutes ago, NConly said:

with 4% or 59% it tells me it Not Always is it like you say there is room for doubt. It seems you are pushing for the 59% to be treated as 100% but cant be with sure 4% out there, and we still have the 37% not accounted for.

No, not doubt.  Translators translate a particular word in a number of ways.  Go to biblehub.com and see Gen 1:2.  Then click on "interlin".  Then click on the Hebrew word above the translation.  The next screen will show all 111 verses that have that exact same verb form.  Then scroll down the list and count how many times you see "was" and how many times you see "became/become".  Only 4% of all occurrences are "was" while 59% of all occurrences are "became/become".

[FreeGrace]

20 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

And verse 1 is no different, everyone mentions what they plan to build.

You are STILL misunderstanding any point here.  Gen 1:1 isn't about planning.  Nor is it about what God is thinking of doing.  It is about what God DID in the beginning.

20 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

When did you get such a revelation of God's thoughts in the beginning?

When did you?  I never made any such kind of notion.  Only you.

v.1 is a statement about when God actually created the universe/earth.

v.2 is a statement about the earth becoming a wasteland, and everything else is the restoration to make the earth inhabitable for man.

Those who believe in a very young earth have to explain WHY God would DECEIVE mankind with apparent age.  There is no good reason.

Those who reject the ruin-reconstruction view but do believe in a very old earth must come up with a reasonable explanation of why the earth is so old.

[FreeGrace]

18 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

A clay cup is formless until it is molded formed into a cup.

Actually, there is NO SUCH THING as a clay cup UNTIL it is made.  It's only a plan until it actually exists.  So you are STILL confused.

I guess you are trying to describe the thought, notion, or plan about an object not yet being made that would be formless.

Then, just say your thoughts are formless, for that is what you mean. 

18 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Earth was not in the form of a planet in the beginning.

lol.  Of course it was.  v.1 says so.  God created the earth.  He didn't create parts that He then put together to "form" an earth.  

God didn't think about the earth.  He spoke it into existence.  But you don't want to discuss Psa 33:9.  Why?