Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

We don't know how long this period of waste and turmoil lasted, just that some people think that it was.  There is no proof.  And the six days were the time it took for God to create and populate His world.

Science is an excellent indicator of the age of the planet Earth. It does not support YEC beliefs.

[Retrobyter]

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I am convinced that Gen 1:1 is a FACT.  Which is supported by Psa 33:6,9

Shalom, FreeGrace.

So am I! Isn't that amazing? We actually agree on a point! I love Psalm 33! 

Psalm 33:1-22 (KJV)

1 Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.
2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made (Genesis 1:6); and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth (Genesis 1:14-15).
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses (Genesis 1:9).
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast (Genesis 1:9).
10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD (YHWH); and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.
16 There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength.
17 An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength.
18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield.
21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I believe this to be an opinion.  Based on the traditional translation (TT) of Gen 1:1,2, which I have shown cannot be accurate.  No such thing as "without form" and and the contradiction with Isa 45:18, etc.

No, it is not just an opinion. You keep going on about Isaiah 45:18. Look at the REST of the chapter, particularly verse 12:

Isaiah 45:1-25 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed,

"to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8 "Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9 "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, 'What makest thou?' or thy work, 'He hath no hands'? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, 'What begettest thou?' or to the woman, 'What hast thou brought forth?'"

11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,

"Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13 "I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward," saith the LORD of hosts.

14 Thus saith the LORD,

"The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying,

"'Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.'"

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:

"I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, 'Seek ye me in vain' : I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

24 Surely, shall one say,

"in the LORD have I righteousness and strength": 

even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I never said nor hinted that He did.  In FACT, God has NO "plan B".  Because He is omniscient.  He has always known everything.  He has but one plan.    No back ups.

So your statement here shows that you do not even understand my posts.  Why you would even think that my view is that God had to "change plans" is ludicrous.

We've been over this already.  God has ALLOWED sin to enter the world, or didn't you know that?  You think God caused satan to deceive the woman??

It wasn't "Satan" who deceived the woman; it was the original serpent - the snake - who deceived her. He BECAME the Enemy, "haSatan" in Hebrew! He is also called the "devil" - the Slanderer - and the dragon - a large, red serpent with wings, a "seraf."

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There is NO credit to the idiot angel satan.  God knew exactly what he was going to do and He let him do it.  I can't imagine what you think God did.

Absolutely NOT.  Ludicrous idea.

As I have already said previously, there is only 1 creation.  Your comments are rather odd, given all I have posted.  To think that I have communicated what you are denying here is ludicrous.  I haven't compared anything and there is no reason for you to think I have.  your comments demonstrate that either you aren't understanding my views, or you are twisting them.

Well, I don't want to be twisting your views, but you've got to be more explicit: You said that the original Creation was that to which Satan and his angels fell. Then, you said that the original Creation of Genesis 1:1 BECAME "tohuw vaVohuw." So, put the pieces together for me, please? Because it sure sounds like your saying that haSatan was the cause for the first Creation's demise.

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Go tell all the scholars who disagree with you.

Tell that to all the scholars who disagree with you.

I really don't care who all these "scholars" are. Their opinions don't amount to much next to the clear words of Scripture. 

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You are free to believe what you want.  But 1 Pet 3:19, 2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 indicate otherwise.

You just said that "original creation" is a myth.  You called that a fiction, not a fact.  See above.

Not the creation, just the idea that the angels were witnesses of it!

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Your claim is not backed up with facts.  The TT says the OPPOSITE of Isa 45:18.  That is a FACT.

Nope.

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

When I search "Hebrew disjunctive" this is what appears at the top of the page:

• A unit of two words with disjunctive accents results from a division process in which a disjunctive accent appears in place of a conjunctive accent. If a vowel-final word carries a disjunctive accent, spirantization does not occur because that disjunctive functions as a separator.

LOL!!!!!!!! Oh, my goodness! This is hilarious! You're looking at the cantillation marks! Hebrew has two sets of marks, the vowel pointing (nquddowt) and the cantillation marks (ta`amim). The vowel pointing reveals the vowel sounds in the words, but the cantillation marks are the accents put on the words when they are read/sung aloud in services! I don't much care about the cantillation marks; they are for the liturgy in the synagogues. They signify how a couplet is read by the cantor.

52 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

...

I'll deal with the rest later. Too busy laughing.

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, there you go!  No, the sole responsibility for the stupid theory of evolution comes from none other than satan, the master deceiver.  Don't blame people for what satan does so well.  

Shalom, FreeGrace.

You would have been one of Flip Wilson's biggest fans! "The Devil made me do it!"

No, don't be blaming haSatan for something that we human beings do QUITE WELL on our own! He may be the master deceiver, but human beings have learned from him over the millennia!

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But your point does illustrate the fact that YEC seem unable or at least quite reticent to dissociate evolution from an old earth.

That's simply because the "old earth" proponents have given the evolutionists the "June bug" that they needed to jump on! And now, that group of know-it-all wanna-be's camp on it for everything! And, if something doesn't quite fit well enough, they just tack on a few more billions of years! That's their answer to everything!

The truth, however, is that however many years one wants to throw at the complexity that we find in nature, there is NO WAY that they can explain the MASSIVE evidence we find for intricacy!

Micro-evolution aside (which I simply call genetic variations), there's no way that recombination alone is EVER going to write a Shakepearean sonnet, no matter HOW long one wants to give to the recombinations! There's an INTELLIGENCE behind the creations that CANNOT be explained by the recombination of atoms!

Now, on the matter of "old earth" variations, EVERY ONE of these misfit theories, whether they be day-age theories, gap theories, or day-ignored theories doesn't deal with the underlying problem with "old earth" theories in general: They ALL deny the Scriptures as written and INSERT additional thoughts not found in the simple expression of the author!

Exodus 20:1-21 (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 "I am the LORD thy God (Hebrew: YHWH Eloheykhaa = "YHWH your [singular] God"), which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 SIX DAYS SHALT THOU LABOUR, AND DO ALL THY WORK: 10 But THE SEVENTH DAY is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 "Thou shalt not kill.

14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 "Thou shalt not steal.

16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses,

"Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die!"

20 And Moses said unto the people,

"Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not."

21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

Remember: I use GREEN for narration, RED for the words of our Savior, PURPLE for the words of God the Father, and BLUE for everyone else.

Also, the King James Version uses an older English that used the "THEE'S and THOU'S," which are singular, as well as the "YOU'S and YE'S," which are plural! God was making this PERSONAL to each one of the children of Israel (and to US today, as well)!

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Again, Darwin's stupid theory was written in 1859.  Geologist Charles Lyell wrote about the "geologic columns" in 1796.  It was Thomas Chalmers, a Presbyterian minister who came up with a time gap between Gen 1:1 and 2 in 1814.

So let's just leave Darwin and evolution out of this.  There is no connection.  What satan does with facts should be obvious.  He's a liar and deceiver.  

Good. Then we can blame Thomas Chalmers. WHY did he suggest such a thing, which was QUITE AGAINST the traditional teaching for THOUSANDS of years prior to him?!

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I think Jer 4:23 is the main fact that sinks the YEC boat.  "tohu wabohu" describes the RESULT of the besieging army that destroys nations.  Yet, you want me to believe that God created the earth "without form"?  That isn't even possible.

LOL! Doesn't sink MY boat! There's NO CONTRADICTION in the Hebrew! Any so-called "contradiction" between the two passages of Scripture is something that YOU bring to the table because of poorly translating the Hebrew into English (or Greek or Latin or German or ...)! 

Tell me, when you were doing your percentage calculations, did you even bother to define your units, first? For instance, when dealing with the percentages of vitamins and nutrients supplied by fruit in a person's recommended daily diet, you DO know that you can't be mixing "apples" and "oranges," right? The two fruits are VERY different both in the nutrients and vitamins they supply and in the amounts of those nutrients and vitamins!

Well, the same thing is true here! The percentages of the TRANSLATION of the word haaytaah are going to be different in whatever English translation you use for the 111 occurrences of this particular form! Furthermore, you aren't taking into consideration the OTHER occurrences of the form with added conjuction or preposition prefixes! 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What is clear is that something happened (?) that resulted in the earth becoming a wasteland and God restored the earth in 6 literal days for man's use.

No. These are YOUR CONCLUSIONS about the Hebrew wording so translated into English! "Something happened (what?) that resulted in the earth becoming a wasteland" is a CONCLUSION based upon your understanding of the word "tohuw! "

You've GOT to understand that FIRST before anything will make sense! Your reactive statement, "God restored the earth in 6 literal days," is a CONCLUSIVE RESPONSE to that conclusion!

I've shown you (I HOPE) that a BRAND-NEW home can be "tohuw" in Hebrew; that is, it is NOT yet a home, as a wife and mother envisions it to be; it's just an empty house!

HOWEVER, if one translates the word "tohuw" as "a wasteland," then it IMMEDIATELY begs the question, "what turned this "new house" into a "wasteland?"

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That is reasonable and easily explains why scientists measure the age of the universe and earth to be very old.  With NO HARM to the Bible or any doctrine.

Sorry, but it DOES do damage to the Bible! It LESSENS the impact of the Flood on the previous environment! This is why many have come to believe that the Flood was just a local flood!

Before the Flood, the environment (the biosphere) was built from the bottom up as (1) water (2) earth, (3) sky, (4) water, and then outer space. After the Flood, the environment was built as (1) water, (2) earth, (3) sky, and then outer space. SIGNIFICANT CHANGES WERE UNLEASHED UPON THE EARTH DURING THE FLOOD! EVERYTHING that we see that has been interpreted as taking "millions years" to accomplish through SLOW, UNIFORM, PROCESSES, actually were accomplished in ONE YEAR'S TIME (with some of the aftermath not being fully settled out until a few years from then)!

Read Genesis 6 through 9 and pay close attention to EVERY WORD in the passage, looking up as many words as necessary to get the FULL IMPACT of that DEVASTATING Flood! How many land animals could there have been after 1656 years since God had created all the "kinds" of land animals on day 6 of Creation? And ALL OF THEM and all human beings, too, were killed in less than 2 month's time! The ONLY SURVIVORS were those who were aboard the ark, a box at least 75 feet wide, 450 feet long, and 45 feet high with three stories (implying 3 floors). This would be a MINIMUM of 201,150 square feet of floor space! This is based upon an 18-inch cubit. If the cubit was the "royal cubit" of Egypt (as much as 22.5 inches per cubit), then the figures would be 93.75 feet wide, 562.5 feet long, and 56.25 feet high, with 158,203.125 square feet of floor space! With the heavier animals and the food supplies on the first floor, it had a water displacement of 15 cubits, which would be 22.5 feet or 28.125 feet, respectively. That is, half of the height of this box was submerged! That's how they KNEW that the waters were at least that much higher than the highest mountains! It NEVER STRUCK A ROCK until it landed on Mt. Ararat a year after the Flood started! That's why it was sealed with "pitch" or tar to keep it water-proof! There was no "going out on deck!" They were all STUCK inside with all those animals and smells for a YEAR! The window on top of the ark was open to the air which kept the air circulating, but this was no air-conditioned luxury liner! Furthermore, with all due respect to the designers and builders of the Ark Encounter in Kentucky, it was NOT a ship! It was an ARK - a BOX! There was no keel; there was no upper deck or wheelhouse; there was no rudder or steering mechanism at all. There was no engine or sail. It went wherever God determined it to go. And, just for the record since there are all those kids' books and toys out there, no animals were sticking their heads out of the windows! They were all SEALED inside the ark when the LORD SHUT THE DOOR (Genesis 7:16)!

Now, no sea creatures were aboard the Ark, but they were NOT exempt from the devastation! Many of them, along with all the land creatures, were killed by the upheaval and the freshwater rains upon the oceans. It's just that God preserved them WITHIN the seas. This TOTAL DEVASTATION happened WORLDWIDE!

This is LESSENED in quality and quantity when one supposes long ages of time prior to the Flood!

These supposed long ages of time also contain much death and decay from an "original creation" that supposedly happened eons before the "restoration!"

However, death and decay didn't begin on earth until the MAN (Hebrew: haa'Aadaam) had sinned! (Genesis 3:17-19.)

Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, AS BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, AND DEATH BY SIN; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless DEATH REIGNED FROM ADAM TO MOSES, EVEN OVER THEM THAT HAD NOT SINNED AFTER THE SIMILITUDE OF ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if THROUGH THE OFFENCE OF ONE MANY BE DEAD, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE DEATH REIGNED BY ONE; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:12-25 (KJV)

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, "Abba," "Father." 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANETH AND TRAVAILETH IN PAIN TOGETHER UNTIL NOW. 23 AND NOT ONLY THEY, BUT OURSELVES ALSO, WHICH HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, EVEN WE OURSELVES GROAN WITHIN OURSELVES, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But the YEC believe the impossibility that objects (earth) can be "formless" and have to defend the contradiction between Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18, and that "tohu wabohu" in Jer 4:23 cannot mean something different than the same two words in Gen 1:2.

Seeing that there is no contradiction in the Hebrew between Genesis 1:2 and Isaiah 45:18, this is irrelevant and petty.

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You keep going on about Isaiah 45:18. Look at the REST of the chapter, particularly verse 12:

Isaiah 45:1-25 (KJV)

 

 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

OK, this is a direct reference to Genesis 1.  God created the earth (v.1) and man (v.26).

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:

"I am the LORD; and there is none else.

I "keep going on about it" because it says that "God did NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu", and everyone KNOWS that "tohu" doesn't mean "formless".  Not even close.  According to Jer 4:23, "tohu" means "wasteland", which is what besieging armies do to "the land".

The TT of Ten 1:2 says that "God created (bara) the earth tohu".  Nonsense.

The TT is a direct contradiction with Isa 45:18.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FreeGrace.

You would have been one of Flip Wilson's biggest fans! "The Devil made me do it!"

No, don't be blaming haSatan for something that we human beings do QUITE WELL on our own! He may be the master deceiver, but human beings have learned from him over the millennia!

Huh?  Where did I ever blame Satan on anything?  I already told you whatever happened in the time gap when the earth became a wasteland is THEORY, since God didn't provide any details.  Your charge is false.  I know you can do better than that.

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

That's simply because the "old earth" proponents have given the evolutionists the "June bug" that they needed to jump on!

I've already addressed this, and now YOU are blaming "OEC" with encouraging evolutionists to come up with their stupid theory.

Please stop.  Satan uses whatever is available to advance his evil.  Whether Satan wasted the earth or not isn't the issue.  But Satan's false and deceiving doctrines are designed to lead "the whole world astray".

Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

You're putting the blame on the WRONG one.

[Retrobyter]

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, this is a direct reference to Genesis 1.  God created the earth (v.1) and man (v.26).

I "keep going on about it" because it says that "God did NOT create (bara) the earth "tohu", and everyone KNOWS that "tohu" doesn't mean "formless".  Not even close.  According to Jer 4:23, "tohu" means "wasteland", which is what besieging armies do to "the land".

Nor does it mean "wasteland!" In a particular context, it can be EXPLAINED AS a "wasteland," but that is NOT its definition!

Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldean Languages gives this for a definition:

8414 tohuw (tohu) תֹּהוּ (to'-hoo). From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. Desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:
-- confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

It's spelled in Hebrew "tav-chowlam-heey-shuwruq."

The new Strong's adds this for its definition:

"formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness."

It does NOT imply that it BECAME that condition through some calamity; it just WAS that way!

 

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The TT of Gen 1:2 says that "God created (bara) the earth tohu".  Nonsense.

You're right! It IS nonsense to imply Genesis 1:2 says that "God created...!" Baaraa' is NOT found in Genesis 1:2! Genesis 1:2 does NOT FOLLOW Genesis 1:1! Genesis 1:2 is a SUBPOINT of Genesis 1:1! The CREATION of "the heavens" (hashaamayim) happened on Day 2. The CREATION of "the earth" (haa'aarets) happened on Day 3. BOTH are SUBPOINTS of Genesis 1:1!

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The TT is a direct contradiction with Isa 45:18.

This is more nonsense. In the Hebrew, there's no contradiction. It is only in the choices for translation into English that SEEMING contradictions occur! 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Huh?  Where did I ever blame Satan on anything?  I already told you whatever happened in the time gap when the earth became a wasteland is THEORY, since God didn't provide any details.  Your charge is false.  I know you can do better than that.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

What you said was, "No, the sole responsibility for the stupid theory of evolution comes from none other than satan, the master deceiver.  Don't blame people for what satan does so well." So, you DID put the blame of the theory of evolution on Satan, "the master deceiver."

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I've already addressed this, and now YOU are blaming "OEC" with encouraging evolutionists to come up with their stupid theory.

No, what I SAID was that they provided the evolutionists with EXACTLY what they needed to propagate their "stupid theory!" I said NOTHING about them "encouraging" them to do so!

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Please stop.  Satan uses whatever is available to advance his evil.  Whether Satan wasted the earth or not isn't the issue.  But Satan's false and deceiving doctrines are designed to lead "the whole world astray".

You are STILL giving him too much credit! I don't really think he thought that far ahead! He just gave us a few, well-placed suggestions to send us off on the wrong track, and WE human beings did the rest!

And, "Satan wasting the earth" is a part of the issue, because it is often an explanation for the gap theory, which suggests a time period - a "gap" of time - between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

You're putting the blame on the WRONG one.

Am I really? What was given which name? Theologians say that "Satan is a supernatural being who possessed the body of the serpent." But, Revelation says that BACKWARDS! He was first the "ancient serpent" that was then "called the devil or Satan!" "Devil" or "diabolos" means "a traducer or a slanderer." And "Satan" is the Hebrew word meaning "Enemy."

[JimmyB]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FreeGrace.

So am I! Isn't that amazing? We actually agree on a point! I love Psalm 33! 

Psalm 33:1-22 (KJV)

1 Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.
2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made (Genesis 1:6); and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth (Genesis 1:14-15).
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses (Genesis 1:9).
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast (Genesis 1:9).
10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.
11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD (YHWH); and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.
16 There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength.
17 An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength.
18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield.
21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

No, it is not just an opinion. You keep going on about Isaiah 45:18. Look at the REST of the chapter, particularly verse 12:

Isaiah 45:1-25 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed,

"to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8 "Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9 "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, 'What makest thou?' or thy work, 'He hath no hands'? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, 'What begettest thou?' or to the woman, 'What hast thou brought forth?'"

11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,

"Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13 "I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward," saith the LORD of hosts.

14 Thus saith the LORD,

"The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying,

"'Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.'"

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:

"I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, 'Seek ye me in vain' : I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

24 Surely, shall one say,

"in the LORD have I righteousness and strength": 

even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

It wasn't "Satan" who deceived the woman; it was the original serpent - the snake - who deceived her. He BECAME the Enemy, "haSatan" in Hebrew! He is also called the "devil" - the Slanderer - and the dragon - a large, red serpent with wings, a "seraf."

Well, I don't want to be twisting your views, but you've got to be more explicit: You said that the original Creation was that to which Satan and his angels fell. Then, you said that the original Creation of Genesis 1:1 BECAME "tohuw vaVohuw." So, put the pieces together for me, please? Because it sure sounds like your saying that haSatan was the cause for the first Creation's demise.

I really don't care who all these "scholars" are. Their opinions don't amount to much next to the clear words of Scripture. 

Not the creation, just the idea that the angels were witnesses of it!

Nope.

LOL!!!!!!!! Oh, my goodness! This is hilarious! You're looking at the cantillation marks! Hebrew has two sets of marks, the vowel pointing (nquddowt) and the cantillation marks (ta`amim). The vowel pointing reveals the vowel sounds in the words, but the cantillation marks are the accents put on the words when they are read/sung aloud in services! I don't much care about the cantillation marks; they are for the liturgy in the synagogues. They signify how a couplet is read by the cantor.

I'll deal with the rest later. Too busy laughing.

Do you actually expect anyone to read all this?

[FreeGrace]

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Nor does it mean "wasteland!" In a particular context, it can be EXPLAINED AS a "wasteland," but that is NOT its definition!

Please provide a reasonable explanation about how "different" that really is.  Thanks.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldean Languages gives this for a definition:

8414 tohuw (tohu) תֹּהוּ (to'-hoo). From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. Desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:
-- confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

And that's what I'm talking about.  Thank you for your support.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

It's spelled in Hebrew "tav-chowlam-heey-shuwruq."

Doesn't matter how it is spelled.  

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

The new Strong's adds this for its definition:

"formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness."

Well, stupid of them then.  And they are wrong because it is "wabohu" that means "void" or "empty".  And once again, there is no such reality as any object being without form.  So there is no need to keep repeating what isn't reality.  Doesn't matter how many scholars say it is real.  It isn't.  If you can see it, it HAS form.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

It does NOT imply that it BECAME that condition through some calamity; it just WAS that way!

Of course not.  Tohu simply means "to lie waste" or IS a wasteland.  A condition brought about by a besieging (invading) army.  Jer 4.  It is "hay-et-ah" that means "became".  As in "became tohu" or became a wasteland.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

You're right! It IS nonsense to imply Genesis 1:2 says that "God created...!"

The YEC bring in v.1 and include it into v.2, even though the LXX scholars who spoke a living language (Koine) translated the "waw" as "but" rather than the TT, (and).

There is a contrast between v.1 and 2.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Baaraa' is NOT found in Genesis 1:2! Genesis 1:2 does NOT FOLLOW Genesis 1:1!

You're making this much harder than necessary.  YEC include v.1 along with v.2 to conclude that "God created the earth (v.1) tohu" (v.2).  

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Genesis 1:2 is a SUBPOINT of Genesis 1:1!

No it's not.  Only in the minds of the YEC.  There is a contrast in v.2.  God did NOT create the earth tohu, but YEC believe that He did.  And that is what you have been arguing all along.  Which contradicts Isa 45:18, even though keep denying that.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

The CREATION of "the heavens" (hashaamayim) happened on Day 2. The CREATION of "the earth" (haa'aarets) happened on Day 3. BOTH are SUBPOINTS of Genesis 1:1!

Rather, God included the heavens in His restoration.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

This is more nonsense. In the Hebrew, there's no contradiction. It is only in the choices for translation into English that SEEMING contradictions occur! 

I am amazed that you think so.  Either God DID or DID NOT create the earth tohu.  He couldn't do both.

And your insistence on tohu meaning "without form" or "formless" is ridiculous since that isn't even possible.  Even gases have form if they are visible.  Think clouds as one example.

[FreeGrace]

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FreeGrace.

What you said was, "No, the sole responsibility for the stupid theory of evolution comes from none other than satan, the master deceiver.  Don't blame people for what satan does so well." So, you DID put the blame of the theory of evolution on Satan, "the master deceiver."

I thought you were blaming OEC for giving the stupid idea of evolution to Darwin.  But Darwin was deceived by Satan to come up with the theory.  Just because the universe and earth are very old doesn't lay blame on any human for evolution.  All demonic doctrines come from the head demon.

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

No, what I SAID was that they provided the evolutionists with EXACTLY what they needed to propagate their "stupid theory!" I said NOTHING about them "encouraging" them to do so!

Well, tough.  God created the universe and earth a very long time ago, and Satan uses whatever he can to deceive people.  That's his modus operandi.  So don't blame OEC for what Satan has done.  If you want to blame anyone, blame the Creator.  He's the One who created everything and a very long time ago.  

Even so, you would still be wrong if you did.  Satan is the originator of ALL false doctrines, such as evolution.  He is the deceiver, and he must just love to see all the YEC make their claims when it is quite EVIDENT that the universe and earth are very very old.  They look silly and he loves it.

But, OEC can look any evolutionist in the eye and explain from the Bible WHY the universe and earth are as old as they measure it, without batting an eye.  And they have no explanation to refute it.  And God STILL gets the glory.

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

You are STILL giving him too much credit! I don't really think he thought that far ahead!

Maybe you just don't really understand what he is capable of.

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

He just gave us a few, well-placed suggestions to send us off on the wrong track, and WE human beings did the rest!

Well, there you go!  

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

And, "Satan wasting the earth" is a part of the issue, because it is often an explanation for the gap theory, which suggests a time period - a "gap" of time - between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

I don't really care the reason for the earth becoming tohu.  I only know that it DID.

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Am I really? What was given which name? Theologians say that "Satan is a supernatural being who possessed the body of the serpent." But, Revelation says that BACKWARDS! He was first the "ancient serpent" that was then "called the devil or Satan!" "Devil" or "diabolos" means "a traducer or a slanderer." And "Satan" is the Hebrew word meaning "Enemy."

So?