Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[DeighAnn]

EVEN if 'the earth' HAD BEEN 'tohu' during some 'point' in the 'creation' SPEAK.  



The heavens and earth were CREATED, as in the past and so WERE COMPLETE by the end of GEN 1:1.  



BEING in a state OF COMPLETION in GEN  1:1

There is NO WAY the earth could be CALLED or even referred to as TOHU at the END of GEN 1:1 as GOD says HE DIDN'T create it that way and CREATION at that point WAS PAST

the PERFECT VERB tells us this is TRUTH, does it OR does it not?


7225 [e]   1
bə·rê·šîṯ   1
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית       1
In the beginning   1
Prep‑b | N‑fs   1



1254 [e]
bā·rā
בָּרָ֣א
created
V‑Qal‑Perf‑3ms





430 [e]
’ĕ·lō·hîm;
אֱלֹהִ֑ים
God
N‑mp


853 [e]
’êṯ
אֵ֥ת
 - 
DirObjM


8064 [e]
haš·šā·ma·yim
הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם
the heavens
Art | N‑mp



853 [e]
wə·’êṯ
וְאֵ֥ת
and
Conj‑w | DirObjM
  
 
776 [e]
hā·’ā·reṣ.
הָאָֽרֶץ׃
the earth
Art | N‑fs





 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Saved.One.by.Grace.

Sorry, the "Science" (falsely so-called) doesn't have a CLUE about the true age of this planet! They're stuck on this uniformitarianism that so clouds the issues with them! They think that fossils were laid down in layers over millions of years without an understanding of sedimentary deposits from something like a WORLDWIDE FLOOD!

This is the argument that uninformed YEC like to bring up. Carbon-dating has nothing to do with the age of the universe. That method is not used to determine the age of the earth or universe. You use science when it suits your purposes. When you read the Bible do you let it speak to you, or do you interpret it to fit your foundational beliefs?

It is unfortunate that I'm not allowed to ignore you.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, teddyv said:

That is an interesting position. I don't credit or mention God in my geological reports I write for the exploration programs I work on. Therefore satanic? 

Almost all YEC literature will focus on Darwin, calling their opponents Darwinists, even though evolutionary theory is well beyond Darwin's work.

You continuing to complain about his "stupid theory" is not particularly useful because you are arguing against something that is has been expanded and built upon into the leading theory on the diversity of life. Also, the modern definition of evolution is "change of alleles in a population over time" is not really anything Darwin knew about. 

Shalom, teddyv.

Perhaps, but the evolutionary theory is WELL beyond the simple understanding of God's Word, too! And, they are not that knowledgable about the subject of genetics, either! They don't understand that the complexity of the various parts of the genetic system are IMPOSSIBLE to duplicate by natural means! Read the section on Genetics in Evolution's Achilles' Heels. There are FOUR levels of intricate detail within the genetic code, and all of them must work together to accomplish even the simplest tasks needed every day for the replication of the genetic code to other cells, and for the production of not only proteins, but several other necessary nutrients and compounds that each and every cell needs to survive! It's a fascinating study, but it is truly impossible for evolution to accomplish no matter how many millions of years are thrown at the problem! 

Also, this "change in alleles in a population over time" LOSES information that once was available in the genetic code of those genes that have mutated. Furthermore, most mutations are disasterous to the cell or organ or organism! 99.999% of the mutations that occur naturally in the genetic structure of a cell are detrimental to the cell. And, the rest of the genetic code weeds it out of the code by either making the necessary change in the next replication, OR by destroying the aberrant code entirely.

They have an unwavering faith, however, that SOMEHOW, the new alleles will be accepted and actually provide new information to the cell - USEFUL information that may IMPROVE the condition of the cell without rejection from the host! Nevertheless, it is VERY UNLIKELY that any such allele will survive in nature past a generation or two. Those that DO survive do NOT change the organism but helps to organism to survive some change to its environment, but LOSING other useful information in the process. Thus, dogs, for example, are bred into new breeds (new species, as some call them), and we get the HUGE variety in dog breeds, everything from teacup poodles and Pekinese and chihuahuas to Great Danes, St. Bernards, and mastiffs! However, a dog/wolf kind never changes into another kind!

When close kinds ARE cross-bred, they are often infertile, preventing a perpetuation of the cross-breed. Mules are a good example. Being the cross between horses and donkeys, they are infertile and cannot produce offspring when mated with either breed. Those that CAN be cross-bred and still remain fertile, like the "Liger" or the "Tigon," simply prove that these two "species" are still within the same cat kind!

One can see "diversity of life" WITHOUT concluding that they arrived from common ancestry!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

This is the argument that uninformed YEC like to bring up. Carbon-dating has nothing to do with the age of the universe.

Who said anything about the "age of the universe?" You were talking about the age of the EARTH. That is based upon the fossil record.

Now, if you WANT to talk about the age of the universe, too (separately, I might add), then that can be done, as well. See, THERE it is based upon the light and the redshift and blueshift of the spectra from stars and galaxies, under the ASSUMPTION that the speed of light is a constant 300,000 meters per second or 186,000 miles per second, even though that has NOT been fundamentally proven. And, as I've already said, it becomes problematic to suggest that the Dopplar Effect is applicable to the wavelengths of the light spectra.

However,  ABOVE IT ALL, one MUST remember that God created the LIGHT BEFORE He created the assumed "sources" of that light! We think of light as particles or waves emanating from sources quickly but over enormous distances that are measured in "light-years," multiples of the distance light will travel in a year's time. God, however, sees the ENTIRE WAVE/PARTICLE LINE AT ONCE AND AT THE SAME TIME!

I believe that He created it ALL in two words: "יְהִ֣י אֹ֑ור" ("Yhiy 'owr."), and it all came into existence INSTANTLY! And, He did this on DAY ONE! On DAY FOUR, He created separate entities each inhabiting the "'owr" called "ma'owr," meaning "from-light!"

The Hebrew says,

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים יְהִ֤י מְאֹרֹת֙ בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם לְהַבְדִּ֕יל בֵּ֥ין הַיֹּ֖ום וּבֵ֣ין הַלָּ֑יְלָה וְהָי֤וּ לְאֹתֹת֙ וּלְמֹ֣ועֲדִ֔ים וּלְיָמִ֖ים וְשָׁנִֽים׃
וְהָי֤וּ לִמְאֹורֹת֙ בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם לְהָאִ֖יר עַל־הָאָ֑רֶץ וַֽיְהִי־כֵֽן׃
וַיַּ֣עַשׂ אֱלֹהִ֔ים אֶת־שְׁנֵ֥י הַמְּאֹרֹ֖ת הַגְּדֹלִ֑ים אֶת־הַמָּאֹ֤ור הַגָּדֹל֙ לְמֶמְשֶׁ֣לֶת הַיֹּ֔ום וְאֶת־הַמָּאֹ֤ור הַקָּטֹן֙ לְמֶמְשֶׁ֣לֶת הַלַּ֔יְלָה וְאֵ֖ת הַכֹּוכָבִֽים׃
וַיִּתֵּ֥ן אֹתָ֛ם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם לְהָאִ֖יר עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃
וְלִמְשֹׁל֙ בַּיֹּ֣ום וּבַלַּ֔יְלָה וּֽלֲהַבְדִּ֔יל בֵּ֥ין הָאֹ֖ור וּבֵ֣ין הַחֹ֑שֶׁךְ וַיַּ֥רְא אֱלֹהִ֖ים כִּי־טֹֽוב׃
וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר יֹ֥ום רְבִיעִֽי׃ פ

This is transliterated into English letters as ...

14 Vayyo'mer 'Elohiym yhiy m'orot birqiya` hashaamayim lhaVdiyl beeyn hayyowm uwVeeyn hallaaylaah vhaayuw l'otot uwlmow`adiym uwlyaamiym vshaaniym:
15 Vhaayuw lim'owrot birqiya` hashshaamayim lhaa'iyr `al-haa'aarets vayhiy-keen:
16 Vayya`as 'Elohiym 'et-shneey hamm'orot haggdoliym 'et-hamaa'owr haggaadol lmemshelet hayyowm v'et-hammaa'owr haqqaaTon lmemshelet hallaylaah v'eet hakowkhaaViym:
17 Vayyitteen 'otaam 'Elohiym birqiya` hashshaamaayim lhaaiyr `al-haa'aarets:
18 Vlimshol bayyowm uwValaylaah uwlahaVddiyl beeyn haa'owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh vayyar' 'Elohiym kiy-TowV:
19 Vayhiy-'ereV vayhiy-boqer yowm rViy`iy: P

This translates word-for-word to ...

14 And-said God, "Let-there-be from-lights in-the-expanse of-the-skies to-divide between the-day and-between the-night and-let-them-be for-signs and-for-holy-day-cycles and-for-days and-years:
15 And-let-them-be for-from-lights in-the-expanse of-the-skies to-shine upon-the-earth"; and-it-was - so:
16 And-made God [d.o.->]-two of-the-from-lights the-great [d.o.->]-the-from-light the-greater to-rule-over the-day and-[d.o.->]-the-from-light the-lesser to-rule-over the-night and-[d.o.->] the-round-objects:
17 And-set them God in-the-expanse of-the-skies to-shine upon the earth:
18 And-to-rule over-the-day and-over-the-night and-to-divide between the-light and-between the-darkness and-saw God that-it-was - good:
19 And-there-was - evening and-there-was - morning day four: [end-of-paragraph]

2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

That method is not used to determine the age of the earth or universe. You use science when it suits your purposes. When you read the Bible do you let it speak to you, or do you interpret it to fit your foundational beliefs?

It is unfortunate that I'm not allowed to ignore you.

YES, I let the Bible speak to me, and I listen to what was written in the original Hebrew language! LEARN FROM THE SCRIPTURES AS THEY ARE WRITTEN!!! Don't go inventing your own ways of bending the Scriptures to your precious little theories in some "hyper-spiritual" method of interpreting Scripture! One should NOT read the Scriptures with an allegorical interpretation; if one is going to let the Scriptures speak to him or her, he or she will take it in the GRAMMATICAL-HISTORICAL method of interpretation, as it was written!

TRUE Science is observation and experimentation, neither of which is possible when it comes to looking at the past! "Science" as it is presented today is a PHILOSOPHY! a RELIGION! It is a FAITH in things that do NOT normally include God! It is a NATURALISM that trusts the human being to be the ultimate authority to decide on what is right and wrong about the history of the origins of both the earth and the universe! As such, since many are atheists looking for an answer that does NOT include God (since then they would have to answer to Him), they are teaching a religion that does not normally include God and uses man as the ultimate authority. That's the religion of HUMANISM, or at the very least, a HUMANISTIC NATURALISM, neither of which we should be believing!

You may not like me or my writing style, but I'm trying to HELP you all!

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Solus Christus said:

Well Biblical Literalists take a more literal approach until it cannot be literal. 
 

I admit while I believe it was actually seven days, there is Scripture that says:

2 Peter 3:7-8

[7] But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

[8] But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (2 Peter 3:7-8)

So by that it could have been seven thousand years, but definitely not billions. 

Shalom, Solus Christus.

2 Peter 3:8 is NOT to be taken as some formula for adding a thousand years wherever you see God mention the word "day" (Hebrew: "yowm") in Scripture! What Peter is saying here is that God can do in a single day what might seem like it would take a thousand years to accomplish. Also, if He so chooses, He can take what some want to be a single day of time and stretch it out for a thousand years, but then HE SPECIFIES in verse 9,

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack (lazy; slothful) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness (laziness); but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, THIS is why God may stretch out a prophecy to 2,000 years, for instance, and seemingly "delay" Yeeshuwa`s (Jesus') coming! It's not "delay"; it's "extending the deadline," so to speak, to allow all who will come to repentance to come!

We see SIX DAYS in Genesis 1, and those six days are defined as "light" and "darkness," "day" and "night," with two transition times, "evening" and "morning." They wee six LITERAL days, just as we have in EVERY WEEK of our lives! Indeed, it was a PATTERN that God gave for working six days and resting the seventh day, the Shabbat or "Sabbath" (what we call today, Friday night from sundown through Saturday night sundown). This is CLEARLY seen in God's VERY WORDS of Exodus 20!

His words must NOT be ignored!

Exodus 20:1-21 (KJV)

1 And GOD SPAKE ALL THESE WORDS, saying,

2 "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 SIX DAYS SHALT THOU LABOUR, AND DO ALL THY WORK: 10 BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 "Thou shalt not kill.

14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 "Thou shalt not steal.

16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses,

"Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die!"

20 And Moses said unto the people,

"Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not."

21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

And, if that wasn't clear enough for anyone, He repeats it in Deuteronomy 5.

Deuteronomy 5:4-27 (KJV)

4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, 5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,

6 "I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7 "Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8 "Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11 "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12 "Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 13 SIX DAYS thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But THE SEVENTH DAY is the sabbath (Hebrew for "rest") of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16 "Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

17 "Thou shalt not kill.

18 "Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19 "Neither shalt thou steal.

20 "Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21 "Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's."

22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. 23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; 24 And ye said,

"Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. 25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. 26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it."

We also read in Exodus 31 the same thing:

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

"'Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 SIX DAYS may work be done; but in THE SEVENTH is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for IN SIX DAYS the LORD made heaven and earth, and on THE SEVENTH DAY he rested, and was refreshed.'"

[Solus Christus]

I interpret it as a thousand years can be a day to the Lord and thousand years a day, that it is evidence God lives outside time; so time is not the same to God as it is to us bound in time. 

With Science we have discovered time elapses differently on other planets and the further from the sub you get. 

 

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, teddyv said:

Darwin's book was a scientific report, not that dissimilar to a modern research paper. But it's somehow different because... ?

Maybe you just aren't aware of all that Darwin mentioned, or failed to mention.  To him, the whole universe just "came into being", all by itself.  Fancy that!

12 hours ago, teddyv said:

By your own statement, not acknowledging God is satanic. Perhaps your language requires more precision.

In the context of the creation of the universe.  Why would anyone assume I was referring to EVERY piece of writing or teaching?

12 hours ago, teddyv said:

No, actually it has not. This is an assertion demonstrating that you are not up to date on origin of life research.

Why would I need to be?  I KNOW WHO created the universe and earth.  And man.  So, what's new that I need to know?  The issue is about the ORIGIN OF LIFE.  

12 hours ago, teddyv said:

The concept of irreducible complexity is a construct of the ID'ers (at least within the biological systems). And just because a satisfactory answer may not yet be known, does not mean it won't be.

It was Darwin who made that point, not that he necessarily used the words irreeducible complexity.

12 hours ago, teddyv said:

I am contesting your language. You have not demonstrated any understanding here (or elsewhere) why evolution is a "stupid theory". It always just a throwaway assertion that you have refused to ever back up.

It claims that the universe came about without any design or Creator.  That is stupid, even if you aren't aware of that.

12 hours ago, teddyv said:

Threads bend and twist as issues arise. I have addressed the topic in previous posts within this thread.

So?

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Solus Christus said:

I interpret it as a thousand years can be a day to the Lord and thousand years a day, that it is evidence God lives outside time; so time is not the same to God as it is to us bound in time. 

With Science we have discovered time elapses differently on other planets and the further from the sub you get. 

 

Shalom, Solus Christus.

Is it as important how one interprets what was said as what the author intended in what he said? Rather than second-guess what Peter meant by a particular word or phrase, one should just READ what the author had to say and understand it in its context, before one starts making applications. 

It is undoubtably difficult to do, but we must read first for understanding BEFORE trying to get some "spiritual truth" out of what was written.

With Science, we as a society have discovered ways to interpret what has been discovered in both the fossil record and in the light we see (or detect) from other objects in space, particularly from objects that emanate light, whether as a source or a reflection from a source. However, most of our knowledge about "other planets" is right here in our own solar system. And, these other planets are quite different than the earth, but NONE of them are capable of supporting the life forms we have on this planet like our own planet earth does! However, they too, as "round objects," were created on Day Four of Creation.

[teddyv]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Who said anything about the "age of the universe?" You were talking about the age of the EARTH. That is based upon the fossil record.

Even if it was the age of the earth - that is not based on the fossil record, but on radiometric dating, but not C14, but U-Pb. Fossil record only goes back the Archaean, about 3.5 Gy.

[teddyv]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Maybe you just aren't aware of all that Darwin mentioned, or failed to mention.  To him, the whole universe just "came into being", all by itself.  Fancy that!

Source?

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

In the context of the creation of the universe.  Why would anyone assume I was referring to EVERY piece of writing or teaching?

It seems a natural conclusion from making an unqualified statement that since a scientific paper did not mention God therefore it's satanic. But you can't be consistent, can you? You love posting on a computer, driving a car, living in a modern technological society built upon scientific discovery. But most of those papers on electromagnetic theory or gravity or what have you, don't mention God. Why are biology papers beholden to acknowledge God?

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Why would I need to be?  I KNOW WHO created the universe and earth.  And man.  So, what's new that I need to know?  The issue is about the ORIGIN OF LIFE.  

You are asserting claims that are false.

Further, I also know who made the universe and earth. We just disagree on the mechanics of it, not the agent.

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It was Darwin who made that point, not that he necessarily used the words irreeducible complexity.

Source?

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It claims that the universe came about without any design or Creator.  That is stupid, even if you aren't aware of that.

And again you demonstrate that you don't understand evolution. Theory of biological evolution is only about how the diversity of life occurred. It says nothing about the origin of the universe. Big Bang theory deals with the origin of the universe.

The other point is that they do not concern themselves with the matter of a Creator. Anything supernatural is not testable by scientific method. That is the limits. If people are making philosophical or religious claims on those theories, those people are in error, not the theories.