The Wedding Feast

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@George @enoob57 @Vine Abider @Starise @Selah7 @Dennis1209

This thread has funneled down to the centuries-old debate, is there a future for wayward Christians? Because of the input of the woman of Matthew 13, we suffer from over a 1,500 years of "leavening". Let us all be aware that our Lord Jesus Himself said "the WHOLE LUMP was leavened". The Roman Church took the doctrine of man for the earth to a doctrine of, "die and go to heaven" (because they wanted the earth in their possession). This doctrine is embraced by 95% of Christianity and those that do give it up, have to deal with incredulity from their peers.

The thing about going to heaven is that it annuls every other avenue. The doctrine of going to heaven leaves no room for God to further deal with those who were not mature at the day of Jesus Christ. It annuls Israel's recovery, for the earth is left in the hand of the enemy, or burned up. Israel's promises are transferred to the Church, for even the Roman Church cannot deny such a weight of prophecy. Resurrection is annulled because you are already in heaven with some supposed spiritual body (we've all seen that our present bodies rot or are burned). God's stated purpose in Genesis 1:26-28 is set aside, and God is made to be untruthful because He promised the seed of Abraham THE WORLD (Rom.4:13).

But if God cannot be moved from His councils, if He IS the ALL-mighty, if His gifts are without repentance, and if the Man Jesus is heir of all things and we end the Bible with a "RE-NEW-ED EARTH" (lit. Gk.) on which is God's City, which is His Bride, which is His Temple with the Nations at the doors (Rev.21) and which rules (Rev.22:5), then the belief in "going to heaven"

King Charles of Great Britain has taken his rightful place - finally. He had to be born of royalty. He had to go to special schools and have highly qualified tutors. While other boys played game, Charles was tutored in statesmanship. In spite of his retiring nature, his father placed him in a boarding school that was known for its rough and tumble. He had to do his stint in the military. After all, Charles was the future king of the British Empire, head of the Church of England and the Officer Commanding of the British military.

But Charles was to be king under a CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY. He is subject to laws and rules of England. If he refused his schooling, refused his tutors, refused his father's attempts for him to have his weaknesses exposed and dealt with, refused the laws of England and broke the law, murdered, married a commoner and dissipated himself in a cloud of booze and drugs, WOULD HE BE NAMED KING! No! He would be in JAIL. And the question now for us Christians is; If Charles ended up in jail and forfeit the KINGDOM,
1. Would he still be Prince Charles?
2. Would he still be the Queen's son?
3. Would he have his father's genes?
4. Could he be "unbirthed"
5. Would he not still belong to the royal family?
6. Would he live in a house belonging to the Royal Family?

The answer is YES, except that he could not be "unbirthed". In every aspect he would retain his name and family BUT HE MAY NOT RULE!

So also is the wayward Christian. The things that he OBTAINED remain his. His forgiveness of sins. His avoiding the Lake of Fire. His rebirth. His status as son of God. His resurrection. All these cannot be taken from him. Partly they cannot be removed because he is organically one with them. And the rest cannot be removed because they were caused by a work the Jesus did. But he would be removed from the father's WILL. He would NOT INHERIT. He is judged UNFIT to serve. And in our case, he is judge UNFIT for the Wedding Feast.

BUT .... our wayward Christian has another problem. He aligned himself with God. He attached himself to God. He became God's son with God's life and nature. He joined the ranks of those "predestined" to be conformed to Christ's image. He may have forfeited His REWARD, and his INHERITANCE. But now it is not about him any more. Now it becomes a matter of GOD'S HONOR. Is this self-proclaimed God REALLY up to His reputation? He has written a Book about Himself. He has made claims. Is He really up to those claims? YES - unequivocally!

So now the wayward Christian, after losing all position and privilege, must face a God Who WILL GET WHAT HE ORDAINED! The wayward Christian has fallen into the hand of the Living God - a fearsome thing. In 1,000 years that wayward Christian WILL be conformed to the image of Christ, FOR, while he might miss the FESTIVAL of marriage, he will not be late for the CONSUMMATION - by order of the ALL-Mighty. It will be a gory matter. The age of GRACE IS OVER. The immature Christian will do his training in the age of the "rod of iron". His "boot-camp" knows no mercy. He will be fed the true ingredients whether he is hungry or not. He will feel the "rod of correction" on his back. He is NOT there to pay for his sins. It is not Purgatory. It is not sins that occupy his Instructors. It is his CHARACTER!

"Saved SO AS BY FIRE" is finally understood. The FIRE is not a consuming fire. The FIRE faced by the slothful Christian is to REFINE him. "PRUNING" gets a new meaning. Can he suffer so much and still survive? Ask the vintner. It is a shocking thing to watch a really knowledgeable vintner. He cuts so much that you cannot believe that that vine can survive? The training for a future Wife of Emmanuel is RELENTLESS for there is a due date. BOOT-CAMP TRAINING has caused more than one man to cry like a baby. The slothful Christian is used to his own will. Now his will and his laziness is crushed by obligation. Add the damage to his ego and psyche because he was made a laughing stock in front of the Overcomers. And add the terrible loss not be with the Beloved in light! Is this not cause for "WEEPING AND WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH"?

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote here bro - "going to heaven" is such an interesting and somewhat deceptive thing I think.  It's usually thought of in a binary way - either one does go to heaven or one doesn't.  And if they don't then they must not have actually been regenerated/saved in the first place.  But conditional rewards (and potential losses) after initial salvation are all over the NT - that is, what we do with this grace we've been given . . . our works.  And this conditional reward plays itself out in various ways, including (it looks like) entrance into the wedding feast.

The one thing, that you and I discussed before, is that it's hard to find that Christians not making in will suffer the whole 1,000 years - there doesn't seem to be any verses specifically stating that duration, right? (and therefore, we don't know how long the excluded one will experience weeping & gnashing) 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Vine Abider
Clarity

[Vine Abider]

18 hours ago, Starise said:

@Vine AbiderI challenge you to look up every reference of it in the bible. Your conclusions might be different after that.

So I assumed you meant for me to look up references to "weeping and gnashing of teeth." The verses I found that mention "weeping" or "gnashing" or both, in relation to a conditional punishment of some sort are below.  Of the 7 verses, four definitely would appear NOT to be an eternal result.  Two verses, in my opinion, do not necessarily show an eternal result. (and Luke 13:28 I'm just not sure about)

Quote

Eternal result:

Matthew 13:42 "and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

Psalm 112:10 "The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away; The desire of the wicked will perish."

Could be temporary result:

Matthew 8:12 "but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"  (outer darkness is very likely not lake of fire)

22:13 "Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 

24:51  "cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (assigned with hypocrites - who are these?  perhaps not eternal)

25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This one I'm not sure about:

Luke 13:28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out" (in reading the full context of this verse, I'm not clear . . .)

So I think we shouldn't be so quick to assume that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" automatically implies an eternal judgement in the lake of fire.

Are there other verses we should be looking at regarding this that I've missed?

Edited December 29, 2022 by Vine Abider

[Your closest friendnt]

Mathew 22:1-14 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

>> 

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

>>>>>>>>>>>the people they brought in were in  their own attire they found them in the by ways and highways and each one was given a wedding garment which garment they were wearing at the wedding banquet which identify them as the guests. 

>>11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment.

This man was no part of the servants of the king and no part of the group who were brought in and gives a wedding garment...this man tried to cruch the wedding banquet...but he was expose by not having a wedding garment on...

The wedding banquet was not about him but about all the other quest who were  invited and brought in immediately upon the invitation and were given a wedding garment, each one was fitted with a wedding garment from the King...to make them fit for participating in the wedding banquet of his Son...

The King inspect if they had on the wedding garment that was given to them...he did not inquiry about anything else about his quest...

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

So I assumed you meant for me to look up references to "weeping and gnashing of teeth." The verses I found that mention "weeping" or "gnashing" or both, in relation to a conditional punishment of some sort are below.  Of the 7 verses, four definitely would appear NOT to be an eternal result.  Two verses, in my opinion, do not necessarily show an eternal result. (and Luke 13:28 I'm just not sure about)

So I think we shouldn't be so quick to assume that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" automatically implies an eternal judgement in the lake of fire.

Are there other verses we should be looking at regarding this that I've missed?

You know V.A., I was chewing on what AdHoc was saying and was just about to start checking all the context for “weeping and gnashing of teeth” and go from there. You and I think @Starise beat me to it, but I think I will do so deeper again anyway.

I think “outer darkness” is another key to understanding some of this. As with most exegesis, there is not a clear consensus between scholars and theologians on the understanding.

Interestingly, every person has a differing view of scripture, reading the very same thing, sometimes to the extreme. The things that influence our interpretations and understanding (our background, denomination, parents, education, I.Q., the age we live in, amount of study time, resources, and guidance by the Holy Spirit).  

Everything Biblical has been interpreted, discussed, written about, and debated for centuries, so we are rehashing age-old questions and thoughts. AdHoc has presented some interesting views I have never heard of or considered.

It all boils down to this: What do you believe, and why do you believe it.

[Your closest friendnt]

12 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Mathew 22:1-14 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

>> 

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

>>>>>>>>>>>the people they brought in were in  their own attire they found them in the by ways and highways and each one was given a wedding garment which garment they were wearing at the wedding banquet which identify them as the guests. 

>>11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment.

This man was no part of the servants of the king and no part of the group who were brought in and gives a wedding garment...this man tried to cruch the wedding banquet...but he was expose by not having a wedding garment on...

The wedding banquet was not about him but about all the other quest who were  invited and brought in immediately upon the invitation and were given a wedding garment, each one was fitted with a wedding garment from the King...to make them fit for participating in the wedding banquet of his Son...

The King inspect if they had on the wedding garment that was given to them...he did not inquiry about anything else about his quest...

 

John 1:10-13

 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

>>This man without the wedding garment was cloth with the garment of the old testament the garment of the Law of Moses..

He thought that he had the right to be part of the banquet, after all he believed in God and he was from the seed of Abraham and he was a keeper of the Law...

But the other quest were given the garment of the son of God they were there for the wedding  banquet of the son of God....and they were given a garment to identify them as believers in Jesus Christ the light of the world...

And this ques who was not in the through light even though he believed in him self that he was in the truth light....in other words he had some light but not the light of the son of God....

The king did something to help him to understand that the light his was following was darkness an outer darkness...

So this man was taken away from the light of the son or the son withdrew his light and the man found himself in a world with his light...and then he realized that he was in a world engulf only with his own light which was outer darkness. 

[Your closest friendnt]

44 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Mathew 22:1-14 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

>> 

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

>>>>>>>>>>>the people they brought in were in  their own attire they found them in the by ways and highways and each one was given a wedding garment which garment they were wearing at the wedding banquet which identify them as the guests. 

>>11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment.

This man was no part of the servants of the king and no part of the group who were brought in and gives a wedding garment...this man tried to cruch the wedding banquet...but he was expose by not having a wedding garment on...

The wedding banquet was not about him but about all the other quest who were  invited and brought in immediately upon the invitation and were given a wedding garment, each one was fitted with a wedding garment from the King...to make them fit for participating in the wedding banquet of his Son...

The King inspect if they had on the wedding garment that was given to them...he did not inquiry about anything else about his quest...

 

John 1:10-13

 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

>>This man without the wedding garment was cloth with the garment of the old testament the garment of the Law of Moses..

He thought that he had the right to be part of the banquet, after all he believed in God and he was from the seed of Abraham and he was a keeper of the Law...

But the other quest were given the garment of the son of God they were there for the wedding  banquet of the son of God....and they were given a garment to identify them as believers in Jesus Christ the light of the world...

And this ques who was not in the through light even though he believed in him self that he was in the truth light....in other words he had some light but not the light of the son of God....

The king did something to help him to understand that the light his was following was darkness an outer darkness...

So this man was taken away from the light of the son or the son withdrew his light and the man found himself in a world with his light...and then he realized that he was in a world engulf only with his own light which was outer darkness. 

Acts 13:6-12 

6 They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,

 7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God.

 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 

9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?

 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”

Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

 12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote here bro - "going to heaven" is such an interesting and somewhat deceptive thing I think.  It's usually thought of in a binary way - either one does go to heaven or one doesn't.  And if they don't then they must not have actually been regenerated/saved in the first place.  But conditional rewards (and potential losses) after initial salvation are all over the NT - that is, what we do with this grace we've been given . . . our works.  And this conditional reward plays itself out in various ways, including (it looks like) entrance into the wedding feast.

The one thing, that you and I discussed before, is that it's hard to find that Christians not making in will suffer the whole 1,000 years - there doesn't seem to be any verses specifically stating that duration, right? (and therefore, we don't know how long the excluded one will experience weeping & gnashing) 

My argument is more by default than any direct statement. The main pillar is Revelation 21:4. It would seem that God wipes away tears only when the New Earth is made. The objection to this that the subject is "men" not Christians. To which I counter with the fact that it could not be men because half of them are in the Lake of Fire FOREVER.

The second support is that in the Parable of the Talents, the Kingdom is called the Lord's "JOY". That would indicate that those not in the Kingdom experience the opposite of joy till they are let in.

The third is Revelation 21 again. God, in purging the old earth, wipes out the old. Thus, the old, including the regret of failed Christians, remains until after the White Throne.

The fourth is that the Virgins, even when they fit the profile for entry into the Wedding Feast, are locked out. They must regret till it is over - and maybe longer.

Fifth, if the co-kingship with Christ, and the joy of the Wedding Feast are REWARDS, they would not be motivational if they were to lose their effect halfway through.

One thing that needs to be said, that I haven't yet said in this thread, is that God's purpose with man was that he SUBDUE and RULE. The Millennial Kingdom is the time, on the earth as we know it, to SUBDUE. The Beast is subdued, his army is subdued, the Nations are ruled with a rod of iron, criminal activity will be subdued. Now Armageddon, although a great victory, is not the subduing because Gentiles rule then. It is two armies vying for supremacy. But Magog at the end of the Millennium is a rebellion against Christ's rule. Thus, this is a subduing right at the ed of the 1,000 years. Once that is subdued, Satan must be subdued, for he was very active in the rebellion. Finally, Christ subdues death by raising "the rest of the dead".

Why am I writing all this? It is because those who subdue and rule in the Millennium will gather to themselves great honor. You can see this in the promises to the Overcomers in the seven Churches of Revelation. And the honor and fame of these Christians will stick to them forever - just like a baseball or football star. I judge that the effects of missing the kingdom - some sort of loss - will be felt into eternity future. Look at this;

 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Re 3:8–9)

My case is circumstantial.

[Dennis1209]

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It would seem that God wipes away tears only when the New Earth is made.

I agree. It seems the Tribulation Saints get there tears immediately wiped away, I have shared my unsupported thought on that before. This would be a good place to insert what I was going to respond to with @Vine Abider on outer darkness after some more study.

This is a tad lengthy but sheds a little light on “outer darkness” for me. I will guess that this phrase, expression, and language are unique to Matthew. It seems agreed that outer darkness is the removal from the kingdom of God, and a place, Hell. The meaning and explanation of this are well explained in the last paragraph.

It stands to reason, underfoot in Hades there is no physical or spiritual light whatsoever. Evil IS darkness. I am not promoting this view, but it is reasonable and makes sense.

OUTER DARKNESS (τὸ ἐξώτερον σκότος, to exōteron skotos). A phrase that appears only in Matthew to depict the future of those who do not choose to be part of the kingdom of God (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30). Outer darkness seems to symbolize pain, death, and separation from all that is good—including God and His chosen one, Jesus (compare Luke 16:19–31). Similar phrases occur in Jewish literature (e.g., 1 Enoch 103:7–8).

1 Enoch 103: ⁷ Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol, And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation. ⁸ And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter; And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world. Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace. ^[1]

Outer Darkness [Gk skótos exṓteron]; NEB THE DARK. An expression occurring only in Matthew (8:12; 22:13; 25:30), describing the future state of those who because of their unfaithfulness have been denied entrance into the brightly lit banquet hall that symbolizes the joy of the Kingdom. In Jewish literature “darkness” was associated with the place of eternal punishment (cf. 12En 103:5–8: “Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died, … and into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter; and the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world …” [APOT, II, 275]; for rabbinical references, see SB, IV, 1075–83), and Jesus was apparently using it in the same sense. See also Dark; Gnash; Hell.

N. J. Opperwall^[2]

Outer

The word outer is the Greek word exōteron. This term appears nowhere else in the New Testament outside of Matthew 8:5–13; 22:1–14; and 25:14–30. However, it does occur twenty-three times in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) and always in relation to the Tabernacle, Temple of God, or the palace of a king. Most significantly, the term is used fifteen times in Ezekiel to describe the outer court of the Temple (Ezek. 10:5; 40:19, 20; 41:15, 17; 42:1, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 14; 44:19; 46:20, 21). In one instance it describes the outer gate of the Temple (Ezek. 44:1). BDAG points to its use in the Septuagint of Exodus 26:4 and gives it the nuance of the, “farthest, extreme.” This passage describes the curtains used to make the Tabernacle.

Darkness

The other term that we need to define is darkness. As mentioned, this is the Greek word skotos. Our attention turns to several Greek lexicons and their definition of skotos:

•          Strong’s: 1. darkness. 1a. of night darkness. 1b. of darkened eyesight or blindness. 2. metaph. 2a. of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell. 2b. persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway.

•          Vine’s: (a) of “physical darkness,” Matt. 27:45; 2 Cor. 4:6; (b) of “intellectual darkness,” Rom. 2:19 (cf. C, No. 1); (c) of “blindness,” Acts 13:11; (d) by metonymy, of the “place of punishment,” e.g., Matt. 8:12; 2 Pet. 2:17; Jude 13; (e) metaphorically, of “moral and spiritual darkness,” e.g., Matt. 6:23; Luke 1:79; 11:35; John 3:19; Acts 26:18; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 6:12; Col. 1:13; 1 Thess. 5:4–5; 1 Pet. 2:9; 1 John 1:6; (f) by metonymy, of “those who are in moral or spiritual darkness,” Eph. 5:8; (g) of “evil works,” Rom. 13:12; Eph. 5:11, (h) of the “evil powers that dominate the world,” Luke 22:53.

•          Excerpts from the entry in BDAG include: “Of the darkness of the place of punishment far removed from the heavenly kingdom” and “of death.”

The Meaning of Outer Darkness

With these definitions as a range of meanings, we seek to accurately define outer darkness. Based on the history of its usage, this phrase is best understood as a reference to exclusion from the festivities that will accompany the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at the beginning of the Millennium (cf. Rev. 19:6–9). Outer darkness is a metonym for not entering the Kingdom. Those servants who respond appropriately to the talent they are given will be granted entrance into the wedding feast (and by extension the Kingdom). Those servants who are unprofitable will be left out in the dark where they will experience intense remorse. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a reference to the sorrow, grief, and agony of hell (Matt. 25:30).^[3]

 

^[1] Charles, R. H., and W. O. E. Oesterley. The Book of Enoch. London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1917. Print.

^[2] Opperwall, N. J. “Outer Darkness.” Ed. Geoffrey W Bromiley. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised 1979–1988: 621. Print.

^[3] Hixson, J. B., and Mark Fontecchio. What Lies Ahead: A Biblical Overview of the End Times. Brenham, TX: Lucid Books, 2013. Print.

[Vine Abider]

45 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

My argument is more by default than any direct statement. The main pillar is Revelation 21:4. It would seem that God wipes away tears only when the New Earth is made. The objection to this that the subject is "men" not Christians. To which I counter with the fact that it could not be men because half of them are in the Lake of Fire FOREVER.

The second support is that in the Parable of the Talents, the Kingdom is called the Lord's "JOY". That would indicate that those not in the Kingdom experience the opposite of joy till they are let in.

The third is Revelation 21 again. God, in purging the old earth, wipes out the old. Thus, the old, including the regret of failed Christians, remains until after the White Throne.

The fourth is that the Virgins, even when they fit the profile for entry into the Wedding Feast, are locked out. They must regret till it is over - and maybe longer.

Fifth, if the co-kingship with Christ, and the joy of the Wedding Feast are REWARDS, they would not be motivational if they were to lose their effect halfway through.

One thing that needs to be said, that I haven't yet said in this thread, is that God's purpose with man was that he SUBDUE and RULE. The Millennial Kingdom is the time, on the earth as we know it, to SUBDUE. The Beast is subdued, his army is subdued, the Nations are ruled with a rod of iron, criminal activity will be subdued. Now Armageddon, although a great victory, is not the subduing because Gentiles rule then. It is two armies vying for supremacy. But Magog at the end of the Millennium is a rebellion against Christ's rule. Thus, this is a subduing right at the ed of the 1,000 years. Once that is subdued, Satan must be subdued, for he was very active in the rebellion. Finally, Christ subdues death by raising "the rest of the dead".

Why am I writing all this? It is because those who subdue and rule in the Millennium will gather to themselves great honor. You can see this in the promises to the Overcomers in the seven Churches of Revelation. And the honor and fame of these Christians will stick to them forever - just like a baseball or football star. I judge that the effects of missing the kingdom - some sort of loss - will be felt into eternity future. Look at this;

 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Re 3:8–9)

My case is circumstantial.

 

31 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree. It seems the Tribulation Saints get there tears immediately wiped away, I have shared my unsupported thought on that before. This would be a good place to insert what I was going to respond to with @Vine Abider on outer darkness after some more study.

This is a tad lengthy but sheds a little light on “outer darkness” for me. I will guess that this phrase, expression, and language are unique to Matthew. It seems agreed that outer darkness is the removal from the kingdom of God, and a place, Hell. The meaning and explanation of this are well explained in the last paragraph.

It stands to reason, underfoot in Hades there is no physical or spiritual light whatsoever. Evil IS darkness. I am not promoting this view, but it is reasonable and makes sense.

OUTER DARKNESS (τὸ ἐξώτερον σκότος, to exōteron skotos). A phrase that appears only in Matthew to depict the future of those who do not choose to be part of the kingdom of God (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30). Outer darkness seems to symbolize pain, death, and separation from all that is good—including God and His chosen one, Jesus (compare Luke 16:19–31). Similar phrases occur in Jewish literature (e.g., 1 Enoch 103:7–8).

1 Enoch 103: ⁷ Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol, And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation. ⁸ And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter; And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world. Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace. ^[1]

Outer Darkness [Gk skótos exṓteron]; NEB THE DARK. An expression occurring only in Matthew (8:12; 22:13; 25:30), describing the future state of those who because of their unfaithfulness have been denied entrance into the brightly lit banquet hall that symbolizes the joy of the Kingdom. In Jewish literature “darkness” was associated with the place of eternal punishment (cf. 12En 103:5–8: “Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died, … and into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter; and the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world …” [APOT, II, 275]; for rabbinical references, see SB, IV, 1075–83), and Jesus was apparently using it in the same sense. See also Dark; Gnash; Hell.

N. J. Opperwall^[2]

Outer

The word outer is the Greek word exōteron. This term appears nowhere else in the New Testament outside of Matthew 8:5–13; 22:1–14; and 25:14–30. However, it does occur twenty-three times in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) and always in relation to the Tabernacle, Temple of God, or the palace of a king. Most significantly, the term is used fifteen times in Ezekiel to describe the outer court of the Temple (Ezek. 10:5; 40:19, 20; 41:15, 17; 42:1, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 14; 44:19; 46:20, 21). In one instance it describes the outer gate of the Temple (Ezek. 44:1). BDAG points to its use in the Septuagint of Exodus 26:4 and gives it the nuance of the, “farthest, extreme.” This passage describes the curtains used to make the Tabernacle.

Darkness

The other term that we need to define is darkness. As mentioned, this is the Greek word skotos. Our attention turns to several Greek lexicons and their definition of skotos:

•          Strong’s: 1. darkness. 1a. of night darkness. 1b. of darkened eyesight or blindness. 2. metaph. 2a. of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell. 2b. persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway.

•          Vine’s: (a) of “physical darkness,” Matt. 27:45; 2 Cor. 4:6; (b) of “intellectual darkness,” Rom. 2:19 (cf. C, No. 1); (c) of “blindness,” Acts 13:11; (d) by metonymy, of the “place of punishment,” e.g., Matt. 8:12; 2 Pet. 2:17; Jude 13; (e) metaphorically, of “moral and spiritual darkness,” e.g., Matt. 6:23; Luke 1:79; 11:35; John 3:19; Acts 26:18; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 6:12; Col. 1:13; 1 Thess. 5:4–5; 1 Pet. 2:9; 1 John 1:6; (f) by metonymy, of “those who are in moral or spiritual darkness,” Eph. 5:8; (g) of “evil works,” Rom. 13:12; Eph. 5:11, (h) of the “evil powers that dominate the world,” Luke 22:53.

•          Excerpts from the entry in BDAG include: “Of the darkness of the place of punishment far removed from the heavenly kingdom” and “of death.”

The Meaning of Outer Darkness

With these definitions as a range of meanings, we seek to accurately define outer darkness. Based on the history of its usage, this phrase is best understood as a reference to exclusion from the festivities that will accompany the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at the beginning of the Millennium (cf. Rev. 19:6–9). Outer darkness is a metonym for not entering the Kingdom. Those servants who respond appropriately to the talent they are given will be granted entrance into the wedding feast (and by extension the Kingdom). Those servants who are unprofitable will be left out in the dark where they will experience intense remorse. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a reference to the sorrow, grief, and agony of hell (Matt. 25:30).^[3]

 

^[1] Charles, R. H., and W. O. E. Oesterley. The Book of Enoch. London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1917. Print.

^[2] Opperwall, N. J. “Outer Darkness.” Ed. Geoffrey W Bromiley. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised 1979–1988: 621. Print.

^[3] Hixson, J. B., and Mark Fontecchio. What Lies Ahead: A Biblical Overview of the End Times. Brenham, TX: Lucid Books, 2013. Print.

I just want to say how much I appreciate these two, very thoughtful posts!  I love that you bros are delving into these things and sharing with us!  Sorry, but I don't have anything deeper right now to respond with other than to express my thankfulness and appreciation for both of you (and really ALL the ones endeavoring on this wonderful topic)!

I hope all on this thread would take the time to read both posts.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Vine Abider
typo

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

@George @enoob57 @Vine Abider @Starise @Selah7 @Dennis1209

THE PRODIGAL SON WAS NOT FULLY RESTORED

Christians receives, by faith, a wonderful salvation. And it is free. The great cost was born by the Father and the Son. But when God joined His plan to man, He set aside some of the things to be achieved by man. When he says that we should help widows, He expects that you help them out of YOUR resources. He will make sure you have them, and that they are replaced, but he wants man to be the visible testimony of an invisible God. But Christians look at salvation and say; "Ah - Jesus will be my Genie in a bottle. All my needs and all my desires will come for free". But the record shows, by none other than the Man Who owned everything, made everything and Who will inherit everything, that not everything is for free.

The Five Foolish Virgins thought like this. And in the course of debate, the thought was put forth that God will not cut Christians out of the Wedding Feast. The argument put forth is that the Virgins could and would repent and be taken back. To support this, the parable of the prodigal son is used. I would like to show that it was not a total recovery.

One of the great inventions was Chapter and Verse for the Bible. It makes studying and cross referencing a breeze. But it has some disadvantages. They are sometimes a synthetic division. What I'm going to do is copy and past the narrative of the prodigal son WITHOUT the Chapter break. I am also going to leave out the part we all understand to shorten the posting. Here it is - Luke 15:11–16:4

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.  
...
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. 1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. 3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.

Chapter 16 verse 1 (in bold) starts with, "AND he sad ALSO unto His disciples ..." The word "and" is a conjunction. It JOINS two or more things. That is, Chapter 16 verse 1 is a CONTINUATION of Chapter 15. This is cemented by the word "ALSO", which is an adverb meaning "In addition", "besides", "as well", "further to", and "too."

To add to this "wasted his substance" in 15:13 is grammatically the same at "wasted his goods" in 16:1. THE SON OF CHAPTER 15 IS THE STEWARD OF CHAPTER 16.

Here you have a classical example that there are consequences for your actions. The SON is restored to his position. The garment and the sandals make him a SON, not a servant. But his INHERITANCE is WASTED. He has proven to His Father that he is not capable of handling the Father's affairs. He is FOREVER a SON, but his STEWARDSHIP is removed. 15:31 shows that the faithful son will inherit ALL!

Now note the context of this lengthy discourse. Chapter 14 starts with what happens on the Sabbath. In prophecy, the Sabbath is the Millennium - the seventh 1,000 year day. The context is a small supper that brings REWARDS at the "resurrection of the just" (14:14). Then follows Israel's rejection followed by a grand supper. Who shall come to this supper - not Israel but strangers. Then or Lord talks about the PRICE f being His disciple. IT COSTS. The way is long and you will need RESOURCES and USE THEM UP - not for salvation, but for the project. And so the context leads to sinners repenting and then a SON (who is already a SON) repenting. But he used up his RESOURCES and may no longer be a MANAGER of God's affairs.