Chosen to Salvation

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, David1701 said:

The reasons why God chooses some for salvation and not others are given in general terms; and they are all based on God's will and pleasure, his glory and his grace.

what you say/ / and what the Bible says is not a mystery it's irrational
Ezekiel 18:32 (KJV)

[32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

So when push comes to shove I'm going with God's Word ...

[David1701]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

what you say/ / and what the Bible says is not a mystery it's irrational
Ezekiel 18:32 (KJV)

[32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

So when push comes to shove I'm going with God's Word ...

 

That out-of-context proof text, is to Israel, under law.  God had no pleasure in Jews dying, because they'd broken the law, so he commanded them to turn and live.

The law gave no strength to keep it.  It was given partly to show man his guilt and inability, so that he would be brought to the end of himself and realise that, if he were to be saved, it would take the Lord to do it.

Clearly, some people have not come to the end of themselves yet.

[enoob57]

16 hours ago, David1701 said:

That out-of-context proof text, is to Israel, under law.  God had no pleasure in Jews dying, because they'd broken the law, so he commanded them to turn and live.

There's was no context given ... didn't need one as it clearly states 'takes no pleasure in their dying' ... so if it's God's will that they die, as your system says, then how do you resolve the fact that God says this
Isaiah 46:10 (KJV)

[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

so, the reasoning is if God does all to His pleasure and something exists that God does not take pleasure in... then naturally one must say God did not do this. As this is then synergistic and not monergistic; for if God does all His pleasure, then where can there be no pleasure monergistically?
 

16 hours ago, David1701 said:

The law gave no strength to keep it.  It was given partly to show man his guilt and inability, so that he would be brought to the end of himself and realise that, if he were to be saved, it would take the Lord to do it.

 

I perfectly agree with you here.... BUT-  
 

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It was given partly to show man his guilt and inability

Then why show fallen man this when according to your system God has to regenerate for man to even respond?

[David1701]

9 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

Just found this online,David.

Ezekiel 18:32

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth
Which is not to be interpreted simply and absolutely, and with respect to all persons afflicted and punished by him; for he does take delight in the exercise of "judgment" and "righteousness", and "laughs" at the "calamity" of wicked men, ( Jeremiah 9:24 ) ( Proverbs 1:26 ) ; but comparatively, as in ( Hosea 5:6 ) . The sense is, that he takes no pleasure in the afflictions, calamities, and captivity of men, which are meant by death here; but rather that they would repent and reform, and live in their own land, and enjoy the good things of it; which shows the mercy and compassion of God to sinners: wherefore,
he renews his exhortation, turn [yourselves], and live ye;
or, "ye shall live" ^F18; I take no delight in your present deaths, your captivity; it would be more agreeable to me would you turn from your evil ways to the Lord your God, and behave according to the laws I have given you to walk by, and so live in your own land, in the quiet possession of your goods and estates.

That commentary seems to have taken a few liberties with the text.  It certainly has some truths in it as well, but I wish that commentators would try to be as objective as possible, and leave speculative comments to an absolute minimum.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

There's was no context given ... didn't need one as it clearly states 'takes no pleasure in their dying' ... so if it's God's will that they die, as your system says, then how do you resolve the fact that God says this
Isaiah 46:10 (KJV)

[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

so, the reasoning is if God does all to His pleasure and something exists that God does not take pleasure in... then naturally one must say God did not do this. As this is then synergistic and not monergistic; for if God does all His pleasure, then where can there be no pleasure monergistically?
 

There is a difference between taking pleasure in the thing itself (the death of a law-breaker) - God does not take pleasure in such a death, and taking pleasure in the justice that leads to that death (and God does take pleasure in the justice that he enacts).

Quote

 

I perfectly agree with you here.... BUT-  
 

Then why show fallen man this when according to your system God has to regenerate for man to even respond?

 

This is incorrect.  We believe what the Bible says about man's ability to respond to the gospel.  Man responds according to his nature.  Someone with an unregenerate, light-hating, hostile-to-God nature will respond accordingly - in rejection of the gospel.  Someone whom God regenerates will respond according to his new, soft heart/spirit, in repentance and faith.

[enoob57]

12 minutes ago, David1701 said:

There is a difference between taking pleasure in the thing itself (the death of a law-breaker) - God does not take pleasure in such a death, and taking pleasure in the justice that leads to that death (and God does take pleasure in the justice that he enacts).

and you are taking your systematic acceptance and adding it to this ... This is not what the Scripture is saying... I am getting your commentary not exegesis!

13 minutes ago, David1701 said:

This is incorrect.  We believe what the Bible says about man's ability to respond to the gospel.  Man responds according to his nature.  Someone with an unregenerate, light-hating, hostile-to-God nature will respond accordingly - in rejection of the gospel.  Someone whom God regenerates will respond according to his new, soft heart/spirit, in repentance and faith.

chapter and verse please that says regeneration comes first?

[NickyLouse]

Taking a pragmatic point of view, I am comforted in knowing that when I keep or guard His word by proclaiming it, I bear no credit nor blame in how or when it affects someone else. I saw a street preacher when asked if he felt his efforts were effective reply that it was 100% effective. Those who heard him speak heard the word of God. I am reminded of Isaiah 55 - a beautiful poem.

[David1701]

On 1/11/2023 at 7:01 PM, enoob57 said:

and you are taking your systematic acceptance and adding it to this ... This is not what the Scripture is saying... I am getting your commentary not exegesis!

 

Scripture does say the things I posted, I just didn't post any supporting quotes.

You've already posted the Scripture saying that God does not take pleasure in the death of an Israelite lawbreaker, in the Old Covenant.

I didn't think that I would need to post a Scripture showing that God loves justice.  Do you really need me to?

The other part of my comment was just joining these truths together.

Quote

chapter and verse please that says regeneration comes first?

John 3:3-7 (KJV)

  3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God. 
  4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
  5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God. 
  6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
  7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 

---Jesus said that we must be born again to see and enter the kingdom of God.  We know that we enter God's kingdom, through faith in Jesus Christ.  Q.E.D.

1 John 5:1 (WEB) Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. Whoever loves the Father also loves the child who is born of him.

---Everyone who believes (present tense), has been (Greek perfect tense - happened in the past, with the result continuing in the present) born of God.  This means that being born of God necessarily precedes believing, confirming the truth declared by Jesus himself, in John 3.

There are also several Scriptures showing that the unregenerate man hates the light and will not come to it (John 3:19,20 - contrast this with the born again  person in verse 21); that he is hostile towards God and cannot please him (Rom. 8:7,8); and that he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel - 1 Cor. 2:14).  In short, the natural, unregenerate man will never believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation - ever.

Edited January 12, 2023 by David1701
typo

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

Scripture does say the things I posted, I just didn't post any supporting quotes.

You've already posted the Scripture saying that God does not take pleasure in the death of a Israelite lawbreaker, in the Old Covenant.

I didn't think that I would need to post a Scripture showing that God loves justice.  Do you really need me to?

The other part of my comment was just joining these truths together.

John 3:3-7 (KJV)

  3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God. 
  4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
  5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God. 
  6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
  7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 

---Jesus said that we must be born again to see and enter the kingdom of God.  We know that we enter God's kingdom, through faith in Jesus Christ.  Q.E.D.

1 John 5:1 (WEB) Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. Whoever loves the Father also loves the child who is born of him.

---Everyone who believes (present tense), has been (Greek perfect tense - happened in the past, with the result continuing in the present) born of God.  This means that being born of God necessarily precedes believing, confirming the truth declared by Jesus himself, in John 3.

There are also several Scriptures showing that the unregenerate man hates the light and will not come to it (John 3:19,20 - contrast this with the born again  person in verse 21); that he is hostile towards God and cannot please him (Rom. 8:7,8); and that he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (e.g. the gospel - 1 Cor. 2:14).  In short, the natural, unregenerate man will never believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation - ever.

not one of these verses says regeneration precedes faith... you might as well give up for the calvinist have not be able to produce a verse since the early church has challenged for such... I have studied and it simple is not there ... you see it cause it's in your head but it is not written down anywhere as such. There is this that clearly says 

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV)

[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
                                                        faith           regeneration
notice the ordo salutis= 'through faith' UNTO 'salvation'
your claim is salvation unto faith, and it's just not there plainly seen...
                  'regeneration'      faith            

[NickyLouse]

10 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Jesus said that we must be born again to see and enter the kingdom of God.  We know that we enter God's kingdom, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Perhaps the kingdom is not inherited by all believers.