Enoch and Elijah Q

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, NConly said:

In John 3:13 Jesus says

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

curious if this could mean Enoch and Elijah came from Heaven and lived on Earth?

 just a question

What John means is that only Jesus is the only one descended from heaven, but Enoch and Elijah were not.

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Ok. Below is your OP. Sure reads like you thought Enoch and Elijah didn't have a natural birth.

Since Enoch and Elijah didn't come down from HEAVEN as did Christ, His being supernaturally and divinely conceived and not naturally, humanly conceived as were Enoch, and as far as we know, Elijah, then it is true that their translation to Paradise is not the equivalent of Christ's ascension to heaven.

Quote from Bible Believer's Commentary on John 3:13 Only one person was qualified to speak about heavenly things, since He was the only One who was in heaven. The Lord Jesus was not merely a human teacher sent from God, but He was One who lived with God the Father from all eternity, and came down into the world. When He said that no one has ascended to heaven, He did not mean that OT saints such as Enoch and Elijah had not gone to heaven, but that they had been taken up whereas He ascended to heaven by His own power. Another explanation is that no human being had access to the presence of God continually in the way which He had. He could ascend to God's dwelling place in a unique way because He had descended out of heaven to this earth. Even as the Lord Jesus stood on earth, speaking with Nicodemus, He said that He was in heaven. How could this be? Here is a statement of the fact that, as God, the Lord was in all places at one and the same time. This is what we mean when we say that He is omnipresent. While some modern translations omit the words who is in heaven, they are widely supported in the manuscripts and belong to the text.

I understand you do not believe they came down from Heaven. At the time Jesus is speaking Enoch and Elijah had already ascended.

Then he clarifies No man ever ascended Except he came down from Heaven first. I see it the opposite as you.

 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, NConly said:

I understand you do not believe they came down from Heaven. At the time Jesus is speaking Enoch and Elijah had already ascended.

Then he clarifies No man ever ascended Except he came down from Heaven first. I see it the opposite as you.

 

Scripture tells us God took them, but that doesn't mean He took them to the 3rd heaven, where God resides.  God could of taken them anywhere.  You seem to be trying to argue that they were born the same as Jesus, but scripture argues against that.  What now??

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, NConly said:

I understand you do not believe they came down from Heaven. At the time Jesus is speaking Enoch and Elijah had already ascended.

Then he clarifies No man ever ascended Except he came down from Heaven first. I see it the opposite as you.

 

Enoch is said to have been translated, as in suddenly relocated, or "was not".

Elijah was gathered up in a whirlwind.

Neither of these "ascended" of their own accord as did Jesus.

[Dennis1209]

21 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Count me as interested

Hello ayin jade,

As quoted in my book "Dennis, 2nd Opinions," be careful of what you ask, you just may get it, LOL. You may not be as interested after this.  I cut my notes way down, and it is still a three coffee pot read. But it was an interesting study of three possibilities about Elijah. I am interested on your thoughts on the subject.

2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him (him=King Jehoram vs. 9) from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Went up = (ʻâlâh) ascended, transported, movement, 1^st heaven. Not dying, not transliterated, no destination given.

That Jehoram “received a letter from Elijah” has been labeled a product of the imagination, on the basis that Elijah had nothing to do with the southern kingdom and clearly was not living at this time (2Ki 3:11 [i.e., before Jehoshaphat’s death and Jehoram’s installation in 848 B.C.]). However, Elijah’s career did involve the south, specifically “Beersheba in Judah” (1Ki 19:3); his flight took him, indeed, as far south as Sinai (v.8). Also, though Elijah’s last dated act occurred in 852 (2Ki 1:3, 17), his translation to heaven (2:11) still need not have occurred till after Jehoram’s accession as sole monarch over Judah and his crimes of slaughtering his brothers and his officials, in the year 848 (8:16). Elijah may, however, have been gone by the time of the delivery of his letter, so that its sentence of doom could have had the force of a voice coming from the dead.^[1]

There are different thoughts here by many.

In one of the most amazing prophecies of the Bible, the Lord revealed Cyrus’s decree to free the Jews to Isaiah. One hundred fifty years before Cyrus lived, the prophet calls him by name and gives details of Cyrus’ benevolence to the Jews: “This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him . . . ‘I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me’” (Isaiah 45:1, 4; see also 41:2-25; 42:6). Evincing His sovereignty over all nations, God says of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please” (Isaiah 44:28).

Could Elijah’s letter to King Jehoram be post dated as Isaiah’s letter to King Cyrus was? Or is it possible the Lord only retired Elijah, and replaced him with Elisha?

Either the Biblical accounts are not chronological in order, the Kings of Judah – Israel are misunderstood, or Elijah was transported (harpazo) as Phillip was. Transported to Israel from Judah, living out his remaining days.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Elijah writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:12 but this was a latter king that lived years after God took Elijah. How did he write this letter?

The Elijah spoken of in 2 Chr. 21:12–15 is by some supposed to be a different person from the foregoing. He lived in the time of Jehoram, to whom he sent a letter of warning (comp. 1 Chr. 28:19; Jer. 36), and acted as a prophet in Judah; while the Tishbite was a prophet of the northern kingdom. But there does not seem any necessity for concluding that the writer of this letter was some other Elijah than the Tishbite. It may be supposed either that Elijah anticipated the character of Jehoram, and so wrote the warning message, which was preserved in the schools of the prophets till Jehoram ascended the throne after the Tishbite’s translation, or that the translation did not actually take place till after the accession of Jehoram to the throne (2 Chr. 21:12; 2 Kings 8:16). The events of 2 Kings 2 may not be recorded in chronological order, and thus there may be room for the opinion that Elijah was still alive in the beginning of Jehoram’s reign.¹

¹ Easton, M. G. Illustrated Bible Dictionary and Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature, Harper & Brothers, 1893, p. 223.

Elijah was contemporary with Ahab and Ahaziah, and from the position of the translation narrative (2 Ki. 2) and the answer to Jehoshaphat’s question in 2 Ki. 3:11, we conclude that his translation probably occurred about the time of the accession to the throne of Jehoram of Israel. The difficulty presented to this conclusion by 2 Ch. 21:12–15 can possibly be resolved either by interpreting the much-controverted 2 Ki. 8:16 to teach a coregency of Jehoshaphat and Jehoram, kings of Judah (*Chronology of the OT) or by regarding the letter as a prophetic oracle written prior to his translation.¹

¹ Smith, B. L. “Elijah.” New Bible Dictionary, edited by D. R. W. Wood et al., 3rd ed., InterVarsity Press, 1996, p. 311.

The Bible's accounts of Enoch's translation and Elijah's removal from the Earth tell us nothing about what happened to them after they were transported somewhere. We can only know Enoch did not or will not experience death. In the case of Enoch, we read this: Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 

This is not said of Elijah, not tasting death.

We see something similar happen to Philip. Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

The Greek word here for "caught away" is harpazo, snatched away by force.

I think any of the three possibilities mentioned above are plausible and non-divisive.

Regarding the timing of Elijah's departure from the Earth, the Bible never specifies the date of Elijah's departure. Bible scholars have assumed Elijah was removed during the reign of Ahaziah or perhaps that of his successor, Jehoshaphat, because the writer of 2 Kings recorded his account of Elijah's departure in chapter 2, between the account of the Ahaziah's death in 2 Kings 1 and the reign of Jehoshaphat in 2 Kings 3. In chapter 3, Jehoshaphat calls for a prophet, but he is told that only Elisha was present, the prophet that succeeded Elijah.

Since Elijah is absent in 1 Kings 3, scholars conclude that the events of 2 Kings 1-3 are presented chronologically. If this is true, it raises a problem in 2 Chronicles 21. In 2Chron 21, we read this:

2 Chr. 21:4 Now when Jehoram had taken over the kingdom of his father and made himself secure, he killed all his brothers with the sword, and some of the rulers of Israel also. 

2 Chr. 21:12 Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, "Thus says the Lord God of your father David, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13. but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have caused Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot as the house of Ahab played the harlot, and you have also killed your brothers, your own family, who were better than you, 14. behold, the Lord is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity; 

Notice that Elijah sent a letter to Jehoram, the son of Jehoshaphat of Judah. If Elijah sent a letter to Jehoshaphat's successor, Jehoram, then it appears Elijah was alive even after Jehoshaphat's reign, which contradicts the conclusion that Elijah was removed before Jehoshaphat's rule. As we've said, the timing of Elijah's departure is an assumption since scripture never specifies the exact date of Elijah's removal. Based on 2 Chron 21, we know this assumption must be wrong. We must use the explicit teaching of scripture to guide any implied understanding. While 2 Kings 2-3 may indicate Elijah was removed before Jehoshaphat's reign, 2 Chron 21 explicitly tells us that Elijah was still alive even after Jehoshaphat had died and his successor, Jehoram, as ruling. The explicit teaching in 2 Chron 21 must guide our understanding (and assumptions) of 2 Kings 2.

Therefore, we conclude that Elijah was still alive during Jehoram's reign. In 2 Kings 3, Jehoshaphat called for a prophet, but only Elisha was present and ministering at this time. Elijah was living elsewhere. The text in 2 Kings 3 doesn't say Elijah was dead but only that he wasn't present. Elijah had previously given his mantle as a prophet of Judah to Elisha, so Elisha was operating as a prophet for many years while Elijah still lived. Elijah's absence in Judah explained his need to compose a letter to communicate with King Jehoram instead of appearing before him. 

So why did the writer choose to record Elijah's departure so early in 2 Kings? We can only guess, but writers of scripture commonly move events around in time for stylistic or theological purposes. In this case, the writer chose to record Elijah's departure earlier than it happened, perhaps to emphasize Elisha's role as the primary prophet during Elijah's declining years.

 

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^[1] Barker, Kenneth L., and John R. Kohlenberger III. Expositor’s Bible Commentary (Abridged Edition: Old Testament). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1994. Print.