Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

Hi VA.

As I see it, the dead in Christ make up an extremely large percentage of the future population of heaven.

God's Chosen and Faithful People from the OT, like Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through to the very last Christians who pass away  seconds before the Parousia, comprise that part of the body of Christ described as the dead in Christ, so it is a very large sum of the whole, leaving a much smaller contingent of living saints who are in mathematical terms, a remainder to join the others in the harpatzo.

Blessings from Michael37 

[Vine Abider]

28 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I now see what you meant. Taking out the word “remain” would make more sense, unless Paul is talking two groups, those taken, and those not.

Exactly.  They are words we (me included) usually jump over.  But I heard someone say that adding the words "and remain" shows some were caught up before (and not referring to the dead in Christ).  They said it looks like perhaps the first-fruits mentioned in Rev 14 were already gone, so that's why Paul refers to those who are "alive (not the dead) and remain."

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for that, and I see your point regarding being comforted by knowing the dead will rise too. But this doesn't explain why it inserts "are are left" does it?  These are extra words it seems, right?

Here's the verses from 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, just to have them handy:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

Here's my point, which goes back to the partial rapture/first-fruits idea - if some were taken earlier (as per the promise to Philadelphia in Rev 3:10) to the heavens as first-fruits prior to the general rapture, then you would have those who are "alive AND REMAIN" after the first-fruit reaping (as in Rev 14:4).

Yes. I very much see your point. My dilemma comes then from verse 18. If one is "left" it means you belong to those who must go through part, or all of the Great Tribulation. I seriously doubt that you could comfort somebody with these words.

Added to this, as I said, the Assembly at Thessaloniki was exemplary - probably the best Church on record. Why would the Holy Spirit consign them to those "left"?

You have a very strong argument though, and I embraced it in my earlier days. Now, I don't for the reasons above, but that won't remove it from scripture. I have to contend with it. I guess my posting was a bit garbled, so let me try and give my point plainly and briefly.

The way I reconcile it is to apply the context very strictly. That is, the context is NOT PRIMARILY the doctrine of the Rapture. The context is the SORROW of the saints in Thessaloniki over the DEAD in Christ. Paul had taught imminent rapture. But rapture is only for the living. So, without an authoritative teaching that the dead would be raised in time for the rapture, the saints are left mourning their dead doubly. (i) The have passed away, and (ii) they have also missed the rapture. So Paul is not teaching the rapture. He is teaching how the dead will not suffer a disadvantage.

If we can take this set of rails, then the mechanism of Rapture is not the main point FOR THE THESSALONIANS, and Paul can mention it is GENERAL TERMS. If the main point of the Holy Spirit is the solution to the dead, then He can insert the warning contained in those who are left. That makes you right, but it also allows an exemplary Church to be included in the warning. But, to be honest I find that not a strong argument. To the Church in Philadelphia the Holy Spirit told them straight out, "you will be accorded safety from the hour of the Great Tribulation". Why does He not do that to the Thessalonians?

There can be one more reason, which I find better, but nobody will accept. The Holy Spirit is VERY accurate. If some saints were raptured even earlier than the resurrection "when He comes" at the end of the age, the Holy Spirit would, for accuracy's sake, have to allow the grammar to include them. Do we have such people? YES! All those already resurrected must be somewhere. Many Christians like to find exceptions to God's Word to solve problems. I don't. So, for me, Hebrews 9:27 is absolute. Men die only once. Matthew 27 reads; 

 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after* his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

The doubly "many" means that here were MANY. Let's take it seriously. Of all Israelites who died and were buried in and around Jerusalem over say 1,300 years (Joshua to Babylon and Ezra to Jesus), "many" could mean 5,000. These men and women are somewhere. If Enoch, Elijah and Jesus are presently in heaven - why not the 5,000 from this resurrection? If those resurrected are already "above" (heaven or the air), the those LEFT in 1st Thessalonians 4 could still be the Overcomers. My experience is that the Bible is super-accurate and thus, for me, a feasible explanation.

 

* I highlighted the word "after" in red for self protection against who have differing ideas to me about the resurrection. Scripture is accurate. For Jesus to (i) be the first-born and first fruits of that resurrection, and (ii) for Him to have preeminence in ALL things, those resurrected with Him had to be resurrected AFTER him. So, it looks like the graves were opened when Christ died, but the saints in them were only raised a few minutes AFTER Jesus three days later.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Exactly.  They are words we (me included) usually jump over.  But I heard someone say that adding the words "and remain" shows some were caught up before (and not referring to the dead in Christ).  They said it looks like perhaps the first-fruits mentioned in Rev 14 were already gone, so that's why Paul refers to those who are "alive (not the dead) and remain."

Very good point. If our theory of a split rapture is correct, then Paul's words in Philippians is equally valid. There is the "out-resurrection" which must be "Attained to". This leaves no doubt that there will also be "the DEAD who REMAIN". Why are they not mentioned? The Holy Spirit is very much needed here to shine light.

My answer, for what it is worth, is as follows. The rapture is PRIMARILY to allow escape from the Great Tribulation (Lk.21:36, Rev.3:10). The dead have escaped it anyway. Thus, the rapture can take place for them any time. This is also why the Lord is in no hurry with the martyrs under the altar in Revelation 6:9. the focus is those who are still alive and who will earn their crowns by facing off with the Beast. God asks them to wait, not because of the rapture, but because of "vengeance". The "double" vengeance that will come on the Whore comes in "ONE DAY" (Rev.18:8). All those who claim vengeance must have been hurt before God will exact it.

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

Paul is simply trying to reassure the Thessalonians that their loved ones will not be forsaken at the time of the rapture, so he (used car salesman analyses) OVEREMPHASISES the fact that they will be raptured and those of us who REMAIN will be taken a smidge later, but the reality is an EYE BLINK is the exact same time. He just wanted to reassure them their oved ones would be raptured just like those of us who are alive [and remain] at his coming.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Revelation Man

[truth7t7]

9 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Exactly.  They are words we (me included) usually jump over.  But I heard someone say that adding the words "and remain" shows some were caught up before (and not referring to the dead in Christ).  They said it looks like perhaps the first-fruits mentioned in Rev 14 were already gone, so that's why Paul refers to those who are "alive (not the dead) and remain."

There will be one resurrection of all that have lived, this takes place at the second coming on the last day (The End)

Edited January 25, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

those of us who REMAIN will be taken a smidge later, but the reality is an EYE BLINK is the exact same time. 

You know the correct biblical answer is "Eye Blink" but you insist on stating "Smidge Later" why?

James 1:8KJV

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Edited January 25, 2023 by truth7t7

[Michael37]

Just now, truth7t7 said:

You know the correct biblical answer is "Eye Blink" but you insist on stating "Smidge Later" why?

This thread is fidgity.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

You know the correct biblical answer is "Eye Blink" but you insist on stating "Smidge Later" why?

James 1:8KJV

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You can use the adjective smidgen to talk about a tad of anything, although it's often used for describing or requesting little bits of food. It's thought to have come from the Scottish word smitch, "a small amount or an insignificant person."

How fast can an eye blink?

On average the human blink lasts only a tenth of a second which is 100 milliseconds. Wow, that's fast! Sometimes, it can even last up to 400 milliseconds.

I will stick with my term smidge, a smidge of a second seems like 1/10th of a second to me. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Michael37 said:

This thread is fidgity.

I don't chat much with him anymore so he's trying to get me to break the ice, I think. If this was a common thread, or a greet and meet or a Faith portion of Worthy etc. I would chat with him all day, but I don't see his forte as Prophecy, he does I guess. 

If I am chatting with a guy about Faith and the person insists we make Heaven by works I will just say, OK, and move on, no use chatting with him if he hears me explain it 5-10 times and still believes the same thing I do not see any need to discuss the matter further. 

Doesn't mean I don't care for the person, like them, love them, it just means I do not want to discuss things which I know are not biblically sound, with them. It is what it is I guess. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Revelation Man