marriage - how culturally pre-programmed are "men" and "women"?

[com7fy8]

 Hi -

I hear preachers saying that "men" are this and "women" are that; and so the ladies need to know what is generally true about "men", while the guys had better understand what is generally true about their wives.

"Men" need "respect".

"Women" need to be told they are loved.

"Men" need to find out how to listen to their wives.

"Wives" need to do . . . something, so they can get along with their husbands.

As you can see I'm already not remembering the list of things I have been told by certain preachers.

So, do you find that there are general rules for men knowing how to relate with their wives? And do women need to learn certain general rules for how to handle their husbands?

[Liese]

I was about to post a question in one of the forums (once I figure out which one is appropriate for the question): The bible references God creating male and female, which are both aspects of his character - but does the bible or God ever mention femininity or masculinity, or refer to those concepts by any other term(s)? By male and female, I understand those to mean how God biologically created our bodies and our biological wiring differently - i.e. body chemistry (different levels of testosterone/estrogen, dopamine, etc), which subsequently causes different brain processing, so that we think different ways in order to complement, representing and operating together in the differing aspects of God, such that men and women require equal value.

But I don't see the bible pointing out socially taught behaviors - femininity/masculinity - that must go along with the biology God created.

The full understanding of what femininity is: "Femininity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with women and girls. Femininity can be understood as socially constructed, and there is also some evidence that some behaviors considered feminine are influenced by both cultural factors and biological factors." (Wikipedia)

The 'attributes' part of the definition of femininity I take to refer to what God physically created, and the resulting behaviors come out of the physical chemistry God constructed in us. But take the 'socially constructed' pieces from the definition; and also take the 'roles generally associated with women' -I believe we are to understand each other's different wiring, because I find that men and women work against those in each other, not recognizing them as aspects of God that they don't have/have as much of - but the rest of that muddies up who men and women are 'supposed' to be. 

E.g. masculinity/femininity as social constructions actually caused toxic masculinity, wherein a man is defined as 'masculine' strictly by 'not being anything like a woman - don't be like a woman, and that's what makes you a man'. Because that's how men were taught to be masculine, not only are they opposed to exhibiting any characteristics stemming from the subsequent behaviors of women's attributes (which isn't something that men actually need to try not to be), men learn not to understand what really makes a woman female, and trained not to 'like' the femaleness of women. Men are, however, trained to desire and seek after some of the socially/culturally constructed attributes of women, i.e. cultural beauty, sexiness, etc.

I share all to say that I think the 'rules' for husbands toward wives and wives toward husbands are so mixed by culturalism, and thus they don't equivocally address what's real about who the husband as male and wife as female are. The rules do not work with my husband. 

[Jayne]

Change the statement "women need to be told they are loved" to "women need to BE loved".  Not just told.  The Bible did not say to husbands "tell your wife you love her".  It said to "love her as you love your own body.  Love her as Christ loved the church."

A man can sit in a lazy boy chair watching the game and drinking a beer while the wife is juggling a screaming baby, cooking the husband supper, ironing, and more.  He can yell out,  "Love ya, doll!" and I guarantee you she will NOT feel loved.

 

[com7fy8]

Which of these do you believe are true for men and women in Christian marriage?

1. Our gender decides what in general we have for personalities and interests. And these things will stay the same in Christian marriage.

2. This world's culture set things up so guys and girls would have gender connected personalities which would make husbands and wives not be ready to relate with each other.

3. In Jesus there are not male and female identities with separate ways and personalities.

4. There are things that all men need, while there are different things that all women have to have in order for a marriage to work.

[com7fy8]

Thank you @Liese and @Jayne for your thoughtful sharing.

Yes, I now personally understand that there is a lot of cultural influence on how boys and girls develop.

When I was a kid, it seems the guys could be more into sports and competing. This could make us less able to handle personal communicating. Meanwhile the girls could be more at home sharing in their mother's activities . . . helping them to learn practical home activities and learn to personally communicate by sharing with their mothers. And so girls could often be more grown-up and able to study in school where communication ability could help them to learn from their teachers, I can see now.

Men can have bodies for physical competition and war. So, men might still tend to grow up being favored for competition, instead of for personal sharing and communication.

And so in a marriage women might tend to seek personal sharing with other women.

But I have learned that therefore I a guy in Jesus need to be ready to talk with sisters about their personal things and chores so we can share personally and grow together in Jesus.

And it is fun to go and grow outside my box 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by com7fy8

[Liese]

32 minutes ago, com7fy8 said:

Which of these do you believe are true for men and women in Christian marriage?

1. Our gender decides what in general we have for personalities and interests. And these things will stay the same in Christian marriage.

2. This world's culture set things up so guys and girls would have gender connected personalities which would make husbands and wives not be ready to relate with each other.

3. In Jesus there are not male and female identities with separate ways and personalities.

4. There are things that all men need, while there are different things that all women have to have in order for a marriage to work.

I've learned in the last year that, opposite to what I've believed all these years about personality being different from character, personality is the expression of our character, and character is based on our current level of development based on things we presently believe, understand, 'know' experientially as a part of who we are. For example, someone is characterized by a 'shy' personality, among other characteristics. Shyness is actually a function of a set of beliefs about how we think we're viewed by others (typically some degree of 'less than' they), how we view others (typically as intimidating, in the case of shy folks), and how equipped we believe ourselves to be to combat the fearful or anxiousness-causing things may come at us. We can flip that for someone who's characterized as 'loud' or 'outgoing'.

The combinations/degrees of the sets of beliefs are different for folks, which is why some folks can say, 'I'm shy in these contexts, but not in others', as example, because the differing contexts come with beliefs about what those contexts may be comprised of. Whereas, if our characters were perfected, we knew we were thoroughly, equally loved/accepted by God and were equipped with all we need, none of us would have shyness, or propensities to overseek attention, or feel that we're imposing, feel exposed in front of 20 people vs. 100 or 1, etc.

[ladypeartree]

First define the culture ... men and women learn what is acceptable within the culture they are raised and it is VASTLY different across the globe as is the culturally accepted idea of beauty / correct behaviour / expectations. from a marriage .You cannot generalise these things since what is normal in one culture would be an abomination in another

 

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, com7fy8 said:

Which of these do you believe are true for men and women in Christian marriage?

1. Our gender decides what in general we have for personalities and interests. And these things will stay the same in Christian marriage.

2. This world's culture set things up so guys and girls would have gender connected personalities which would make husbands and wives not be ready to relate with each other.

3. In Jesus there are not male and female identities with separate ways and personalities.

4. There are things that all men need, while there are different things that all women have to have in order for a marriage to work.

#1 and #3 are not true because they are not biblical. 

#2 is possible for some.

#4 is definitely true.

[Neighbor]

3 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

As you can see I'm already not remembering the list of things I have been told by certain preachers.

Yes I can see that.

What is the purpose or point that you  desire to bring up or serve?

[Waggles]

Before I came to the Lord [Jesus] I was a certain type of man. 

Very worldly, self-centred, selfish, indulging my addictions, allowing my children to suffer poverty, prone to anger and violence.

 And these were my good traits.

Then I was converted by the indwelling Holy Spirit and became a Pentecostal disciple.

Over time I have become a very very different man by the transforming power of God.

For God by his Spirit did not just heal me instantly from my addictions and bleeding kidneys - but went on to heal my heart, heal my soul, heal my mind and to heal my life.

Even my adult unbelieving of the gospel daughter acknowledges my testimony to being dramatically changed since I believed.

A woman can be a wonderful companion in life not just a wife.

I have remained a widower for some 27 years now and sure I am lonely in that respect - but I have a cat who sleeps on the bed with me. A pretty good substitute.

Ephesians 5:8  for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 
9  (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 
10  and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.