Is marital headship/submission conducive to mutual/best friendship?

[Liese]

If a husband has authority over the wife, and the wife is to submit to the husband in everything, is mutual friendship, and best friendship, authentically possible? Jesus was at some point able to call the disciples his friends; mature believers are able to be considered friends of God. Can those same hierarchical relationships similarly apply between Christian husbands and wives?

I've heard it stated that these examples, or at least the marriage relationship, which contains the directive for one to always to submit themselves to the other, isn't quite equal, and thus contradicts the ability to develop a truly mutual friendship.

I can understand friendship up to a certain level to be possible, certainly, and can even see fully mutual friendship ability, even if one has continual ultimate authority, depending on how they operate in it. But I can also see the wife feeling ultimately unequal, though she knows she's an equal heir. 
 

[da_man1974]

I think this depends on your definition of authority and submission are.

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[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Liese said:

If a husband has authority over the wife, and the wife is to submit to the husband in everything, is mutual friendship, and best friendship, authentically possible?

Much of the problems concerning marriage and the traditional rights of men over their wives (and children) is patriarchy arising from worldly culture and NOT from Christian love and scripture.

Ephesians 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

Ephesians 5:33  However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Colossians 3:18  Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 
19  Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 
20  Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 
21  Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.

The gospel is about love and kindness and good works - patriarchy in its worst forms: men taking the property of their wives, men squandering their income; violence against wives and daughters; abuse in all forms; rape in marriage - these are acts of the flesh.

This is un-Godliness and wickedness traditionally aided and abetted by worldly churches.

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Liese said:

I've heard it stated that these examples, or at least the marriage relationship, which contains the directive for one to always to submit themselves to the other, isn't quite equal, and thus contradicts the ability to develop a truly mutual friendship.

I believe that these days many people have unrealistic views and attitudes on marriage arising out of romantic ideals on love, marriage and family life. Ideals on choosing a best partner. Marrying for love only. 

Both my parents were single parents way back in the 1950s - when this was very frowned upon and considered highly immoral and worthy of welfare intervention.

My mother had a daughter to a man who left her, and my father had a son (me) to a woman he did not want to marry. In the mid 1950s they met through the local German club community and decided to marry not out of love but out of practicality.

Mum gained a husband and income support for herself and her daughter (Suzi) and Dad could legally adopt me from the orphanage as he was now moral and married. They worked together in order to solve their personal, legal and economic problems.

Dad was head of the family, but he always consulted with Mum on all major decisions concerning large expenditures and commitments. Mum had an allowance or budget for herself and did all the household shopping and purchases (clothing, etc) in her own right.

While Dad was the head of the family it meant that the responsibilities for making major decisions that could affect the future welfare of the family fell on his shoulders. If things went wrong he was to blame. But fortunately, Dad had survived WWII and the horrors of this period, and was pretty sensible with our money and decision making. Life experience does count.

I believed through observation that they learned to love each other after they married and grew into their roles as husband and wife, and eventually with four children. We enjoyed life in the suburbs as a family.

Dad died of cancer at 46 (these things happen) and Mum just recently turned 88 and still lives in her own house as a widow.

Oh at last count I think there are now 50 descendants from these two naughty young people of the 1950s.

 

[Liese]

Thanks much for sharing!

[other one]

I'm 75 years old and been married to the same woman for 52 of those years.....

When I was young and first married I was a typical redneck husband....    expected my wife to be submissive and I thought she should for I truly did love her.....

After about 5 years things were not going as smooth as I thought they would be so I took my problems with the submissiveness to the Lord and what he told me was to read the scripture about me loving her.

Well the rest of the story as Paul Harvey says really opened my eyes to a lot.

It says I must love her as Jesus loved the church......   meaning if necessary I would be willing to let a dozen or so people beat me half to death and hang me on a tree to die....   if it's in "her" best interest.    Having nothing to do with ME.   What I think and do is for her not me or even us as a group.

Our last 45 or so years have been much better for the both of us.   And it was so important for me to learn that for about 35 years ago she started having serious M. S. symptoms....    I was told that about 75% of the spouses in that situation end up getting divorces.

Jesus reminded me often of the beatings he took for me, and eventually taking care of her became such a blended thing in our lives, I think it has made us much closer.   I would never complain as to the hardships the M. S. caused over the years.   She is still able to get around even at the age of 71, so we have been truly blessed.

When young people ask me about marriage I always tell the guys that they should be willing to have a dozen guys beat him half to death and hang him on a tree if it's the best for her.....    and remind them if they do that almost any woman would follow him to the ends of the earth submissively.

I did one thing before we got married though, I seriously prayed that should I ever seriously start to be unfaithful to her for God to kill me himself on the spot....   That was 53 years ago and it still stands.

[AnOrangeCat]

6 hours ago, Liese said:

I've heard it stated that these examples, or at least the marriage relationship, which contains the directive for one to always to submit themselves to the other, isn't quite equal, and thus contradicts the ability to develop a truly mutual friendship.

I'd disagree with the premise. A key thing to keep in mind is that equality doesn't require identical function. We've all had truly mutual friendships with people we aren't "equal" with in some form or another, be it in wealth, social standing, knowledge, talent, and so on. The friendships are no less real because of the existence of differences.

The thing to keep in mind is that the Biblical model is both grounded in love, and it isn't a precision, extensive list of thou shalts/thou shalt nots. It speaks in very broad and general terms. This is a good thing. It leaves it up to individual couples to find their own happy balance of factors within the general framework provided.

[farouk]

To broaden the discussion a little, Philippians 2 shows that the Lord Jesus is both equal to the Father and dependent.

[TheBlade]

On 2/22/2023 at 1:41 PM, Liese said:

If a husband has authority over the wife, and the wife is to submit to the husband in everything, is mutual friendship, and best friendship, authentically possible? Jesus was at some point able to call the disciples his friends; mature believers are able to be considered friends of God. Can those same hierarchical relationships similarly apply between Christian husbands and wives?

I've heard it stated that these examples, or at least the marriage relationship, which contains the directive for one to always to submit themselves to the other, isn't quite equal, and thus contradicts the ability to develop a truly mutual friendship.

I can understand friendship up to a certain level to be possible, certainly, and can even see fully mutual friendship ability, even if one has continual ultimate authority, depending on how they operate in it. But I can also see the wife feeling ultimately unequal, though she knows she's an equal heir. 
 

Been married since 1984 and together about 3-4 years before that. I am no haha expert. Anyway its what you said at the end "But I can also see the wife feeling ultimately unequal, though she knows she's an equal heir."

I want to share something that might help one see how God sees. Looking at one fight where she was saying such awful evil things (all  my life I never ever say anything negative about her). In the middle of this fight and this was like 10 y ago I think anyway this love comes over me oh never in all my walk with Christ have I felt such love for her. I saw past her right to her heart (makes me cry every time) her heart was nothing at all like she was acting. So from that moment to now I truly understand we only see flesh and I can never truly judge someone based on just what I see and hear.  But this love I had..I have never in my life felt it before or after. Well all I wanted to do was to please her to treat her like a queen. No it was a reward a treasure to  do this for her. If and I thought this.. what if this is how she will treat me till we die what if she never does anything ever for me....I was like..  NO.. as long as I can love her do anything for her that is all that matter that is all I wan. To love her to give to her was oh a reward is the best word I can say. Its backwards here we feel its better to receive to get as all I want is... . The gift the reward was to be able to love her to just make her happy and I what I get from her..  never once a thought. 

As fast as it came it lifted and was gone. I remember in the mist of that saying out loud "this is what it means to love your enemy". What really hurts still every time I think and I know I should not but it took me so many many years before I listened to Him. Now I understand when this preacher was asking God why did it take you so long before you talked to me? To that He said " I have been trying to talk to you". Yeah its not God its us. I know what the word says about how a wife should act and such but that was not said to me to make sure I say it to her. So I expect nothing in return haha yes that is SO easy to say yet I do in fact walk in it still. Something so real more real then any love I have ever had. 

So in my world "feeling ultimately unequal" I truly understand this...its just flipped in my case. If we were looking at this through  mans eyes not Gods. Do we look at Christ and not think how unfair it was? How He should have been really treated? Remember though here He was just man yet HE IS GOD! That is love. So its not what she should have or should be doing.. I will only say this so you have taste.. what most men experience in a marriage I never have. I can't watch any kind of movie like a love story I am still human and it just hurts to much. And He wants me to love her and never want. Amen yes sir I freely willingly obey. I said when I was 12 or younger show me what I have to do to be like you. To just be like Him to have that compassion.. to have His heart to feel what He did to see people through His eyes..

So you are more special then you know to Him. Thank you if you made it this are and letting me bend you ear so to speak

[farouk]

8 minutes ago, TheBlade said:

Been married since 1984 and together about 3-4 years before that. I am no haha expert. Anyway its what you said at the end "But I can also see the wife feeling ultimately unequal, though she knows she's an equal heir."

I want to share something that might help one see how God sees. Looking at one fight where she was saying such awful evil things (all  my life I never ever say anything negative about her). In the middle of this fight and this was like 10 y ago I think anyway this love comes over me oh never in all my walk with Christ have I felt such love for her. I saw past her right to her heart (makes me cry every time) her heart was nothing at all like she was acting. So from that moment to now I truly understand we only see flesh and I can never truly judge someone based on just what I see and hear.  But this love I had..I have never in my life felt it before or after. Well all I wanted to do was to please her to treat her like a queen. No it was a reward a treasure to  do this for her. If and I thought this.. what if this is how she will treat me till we die what if she never does anything ever for me....I was like..  NO.. as long as I can love her do anything for her that is all that matter that is all I wan. To love her to give to her was oh a reward is the best word I can say. Its backwards here we feel its better to receive to get as all I want is... . The gift the reward was to be able to love her to just make her happy and I what I get from her..  never once a thought. 

As fast as it came it lifted and was gone. I remember in the mist of that saying out loud "this is what it means to love your enemy". What really hurts still every time I think and I know I should not but it took me so many many years before I listened to Him. Now I understand when this preacher was asking God why did it take you so long before you talked to me? To that He said " I have been trying to talk to you". Yeah its not God its us. I know what the word says about how a wife should act and such but that was not said to me to make sure I say it to her. So I expect nothing in return haha yes that is SO easy to say yet I do in fact walk in it still. Something so real more real then any love I have ever had. 

So in my world "feeling ultimately unequal" I truly understand this...its just flipped in my case. If we were looking at this through  mans eyes not Gods. Do we look at Christ and not think how unfair it was? How He should have been really treated? Remember though here He was just man yet HE IS GOD! That is love. So its not what she should have or should be doing.. I will only say this so you have taste.. what most men experience in a marriage I never have. I can't watch any kind of movie like a love story I am still human and it just hurts to much. And He wants me to love her and never want. Amen yes sir I freely willingly obey. I said when I was 12 or younger show me what I have to do to be like you. To just be like Him to have that compassion.. to have His heart to feel what He did to see people through His eyes..

So you are more special then you know to Him. Thank you if you made it this are and letting me bend you ear so to speak

@TheBlade Those words of yours were not written lightly. I love how John's First Epistle expresses searchingly what truly a divine-led understanding of love really is.