Teaching Christian principles -

[Neighbor]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:39 AM, FJK said:

A Christian sci-fi movie I watched last year has left me pondering the question:

 

Does teaching Christian principles without the authority of God and belief in Christ behind them improve society or does it destroy the Church by diluting the belief, faith, and values of its members?

 

I know my own thinking on this but, having led myself down the wrong road many times in my life, I would appreciate the thinking of others to weigh against it.

 

(If this is not a good line of thought, or a proper topic, to pursue, please let me know that too)

 

 

Teaching Christian principles with or without authority of God will not benefit nor destroy any society, church, or individual.

No one hears teaching except that God reveals reveals Yeshua via the call from the Holy spirit.  It matters not the proclivity of teachings, nor the teacher, if the Holy Spirit has not first called out specifically to an individual to hear read and heed the gospel of Yeshua.

And then once called, the teaching is not for one's own faith, that always fails. Instead  is for ( fuller) knowledge of the unbreakable faith  of Yeshua which never fails those given to Him by His Father, those  of whom he loses not a one.

Even faith is not of one's own doing, but is of God.

[farouk]

5 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Teaching Christian principles with or without authority of God will not benefit nor destroy any society, church, or individual.

No one hears teaching except that God reveals reveals Yeshua via the call from the Holy spirit.  It matters not the proclivity of teachings, nor the teacher, if the Holy Spirit has not first called out specifically to an individual to hear read and heed the gospel of Yeshua.

And then once called the teaching is not for one's own faith, that always fails. Instead is is for knowledge of the unbreakable faith  of Yeshua which never fails those given to Him by His Father, those  of whom he loses not a one.

Even faith is not of one's own doing, but is of God.

@Neighbor It all needs to check out from the Word of God, right?

[FJK]

4 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Teaching Christian principles with or without authority of God will not benefit nor destroy any society, church, or individual.

No one hears teaching except that God reveals reveals Yeshua via the call from the Holy spirit.  It matters not the proclivity of teachings, nor the teacher, if the Holy Spirit has not first called out a specifically to an individual to hear read and heed the gospel of Yeshua.

And then once called the teaching is not for one's own faith, that always fails. Instead is is for knowledge of the unbreakable faith  of Yeshua which never fails those giving to Him by His Father, those  of whom he loses not a one.

Even faith is not of one's own doing, but is of God.

Does this mean -do you mean- that the Church  or a Christian cannot be led astray?  Cannot leave belief in Christ as absolute God, Lord and Savior, being and simply pursue its own fleshly interests while maintaining a cultural stance as a Christian?

[BibleStudent100]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:39 AM, FJK said:

Does teaching Christian principles without the authority of God and belief in Christ behind them improve society or does it destroy the Church by diluting the belief, faith, and values of its members?

If I understand your question correctly, do you mean that adorning some Christian principles is possible without clear reference to Christ?  If that is your question, then YES, it is possible.  The founding forefathers extolled principles of fairness, equality, personal responsibility, all of which line up well with Biblical principles, but very few of these nation building men were known for their public stand and dedication to a Christian religion.  

If people of the world were to follow Bible principles, this world would be a much better place in which to live, even if they were not believer in Christ.

[Neighbor]

30 minutes ago, FJK said:

Does this mean -do you mean- that the Church  or a Christian cannot be led astray?  Cannot leave belief in Christ as absolute God, Lord and Savior, being and simply pursue its own fleshly interests while maintaining a cultural stance as a Christian?

Hi,  I think the choices presented were incomplete, or a false choice, for the  answer was not to be found within them. I said that all faith of men fails. That it is only the faith of Yeshua that does not fail. 

Regardless of the failings  of faith of men/women , Yeshua loses not a one of those that have been foreknown, predestined,  justified, not by the doing of the individual, but by God.

Does God lose faith? What He pledges or  swears, is done in Him, by His faith. Can any man do the same? I suggest the answer is no, that no man can have faith that does not fail him. It is faith of God that prevails always, without exception.

 

[FJK]

25 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,  I think the choices presented were incomplete, or a false choice, for the  answer was not to be found within them. I said that all faith of men fails. That it is only the faith of Yeshua that does not fail. 

Regardless of the failings  of faith of men/women , Yeshua loses not a one of those that have been foreknown, predestined,  justified, not by the doing of the individual, but by God.

Does God lose faith? What He pledges or  swears, is done in Him, by His faith. Can any man do the same? I suggest the answer is no, that no man can have faith that does not fail him. It is faith of God that prevails always, without exception.

 

Well, I think I need to mature my thinking , condense it, and simply ask:  When preaching Christianity without Christ as the authority behind it to make it more acceptable to the non Christian secular population, do we end up Christianizing society, improving it, or secularizing the Church?  Do we bring true doctrine to the non Christians, or do we bring false doctrine to the Church?

 

FWIW, which may be nothing, I see all sorts of things going on in today's churches that is absolutely repulsive to me, almost every abomination to god being placed in high regard by the Church leaders.  As a song once said "Do I hold on to the old, or grab on to the new?.

[Neighbor]

I suggest for consideration that  not all are gifted by the Holy Spirit to teach, nor pastor. Those that are so gifted spend much time in learning the word of God under the will and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Such  teachers will be led to share milk and will also share  the harder spiritual food  with each individual, but will not speak of other than that which is the gospel of Yeshua.

Anyone teaching another gospel is not a Christian shepherding sheep, but instead is a  wolf devouring sheep.  No pastor shepherding the sheep dumbs down the gospel to make it palatable to an unsaved world; but yes there are those that are not Christian pastors at all that will sell  exciting happy tales  of faith, doing so for their own supper, fleecing the sheep,- for awhile.

I understand  it is unwise to simply follow a pastor, a man,  in fact it is dangerous to do so. For when that shepherd falls th esheep wil scatter. Instead it is wise to seek out in prayer, thinking, reading the word of God the Bible, all the messages shared  in order to see that the Holy Spirit indwells and the message is true. Then if a man falls the sheep will not have been following him in the first place, and may even be enabled by the Holy Spirit  to turn him to Jesus.

Growth in understanding and utilizing the word comes through the Holy Spirit, not through a man no matter how entertaining his presentations. 

[Who me]

A society that lives in accordance with Christian morality and principals is going to be a fairer and more just society than one that makes up its own rules.

This can be seen in history and in todays society.

Even societies that sought to live by Christian principals often failed, look at how those not of society have been treated.

Against that look how non christian societies have and are treating people.

 

[Hopefully]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:39 AM, FJK said:

Does teaching Christian principles without the authority of God and belief in Christ behind them improve society or does it destroy the Church by diluting the belief, faith, and values of its members?

It destroys.

“My brothers and sisters, not many of you should be teachers. I say this because, as you know, we who teach will be judged more strictly than others. We all make many mistakes. A person who never said anything wrong would be perfect. Someone like that would be able to control their whole body too.”
‭‭James‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭

“The time will come when people will not listen to the true teaching. But people will find more and more teachers who please them. They will find teachers who say what they want to hear. People will stop listening to the truth. They will begin to follow the teaching in false stories.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭

I may be misunderstanding the question. If you mean something like a nonbeliever teaching someone not to steal or kill - seems good on the surface like it would improve society. For this example I don’t see how it would affect the church.
 

I don’t see how any non believer doing something Christ would approve of would destroy Christians. they should be happy to see it. After all do we know if others are actually saved anyway?

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Hopefully

[AnOrangeCat]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:39 AM, FJK said:

Does teaching Christian principles without the authority of God and belief in Christ behind them improve society or does it destroy the Church by diluting the belief, faith, and values of its members?

IMO it's not a simple yes or no because it's multifaceted. Paul talks about similar when he says that the Gentiles had in some cases effectively carried the Law in their heart without knowing it. Christian values are also typically rather conducive to a fair and peaceful society so it does help in purely in the sense of a functional, earthly society, but at the same time it does run the risk of selling people on the idea that they can be good without Christ. But it can also serve to introduce people to ideas found in Christianity so it's complicated.