Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[The Barbarian]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Of course, this is a load of nonsense. It's NOT a "misunderstanding of the etymological roots of the word," for one can SEE the etymology in the very definition you quote!

It doesn't mean "change"; it means "to unfold, open out, expand," just as the etymology suggests!

As you see, it does mean change.  But the etymology of it is why Darwin preferred "descent with modification" which describes biological evolution rather well, if one doesn't know about genetics.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I don't think much of Darwin's view of the Bible or of God.

Which is O.K.  His only comment about God with regard to evolution is his supposition that God just created the first living things.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Change is not always for the better.

Right. That's true in biological evolution, too.  Most of it is a dead end; the vast majority of species are now extinct.  A few winners, but mostly losers.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And again, the assumption is to label it "DESCENT with modification!" Thus, it was a BIAS from which he operated and wrote.

Actually, his observations of living populations.  That's what happens.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is interesting. You decided to go deep with a masters program, while I went wide with a couple of bachelor's degrees and AA's and AS's and several certificate programs. It gave me a wider variety.

Computer science, biology, history, chemistry.   I was kind of an academic bum.   Partially after getting drafted.   I took as many college courses as I could on whatever base it was.   I have nearly enough history to get a degree in it.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What I find even more interesting is your work on natural selection in predators and prey! You DO realize, though, that before the Flood, all animals were herbivorous, right?

I know some creationists want to believe that, but of course God never said that.

BTW, we have now found all the bases for DNA and RNA in meteorites where they formed abiotically.  

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Which means nothing without the genetic code!

They comprise the genetic code.  All the stuff for life was already there, because of the way God made things.   And then the earth brought forth life from those things He created through nature.    As He intended.

Fortunately, genetics gives us a way to test that belief.   Turns out, DNA analyses confirm common descent.   The phylogenies based on DNA turn out to be almost identical to those base on phenotypes.   And where it doesn't we find analogy rather than homology, which indicates convergence.   Would you like to see how we know?

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

NO, thank you!

Your bias colors your view.   As you know, we can identify common descent by looking at DNA.  This is how, for example, we know about the black descendants of Thomas Jefferson.   This is how we know that polar bears evolved from brown bears in the last ice age.   This is how we know how different varieties of domesticated animals were produced.   All of these are examples of known descent and DNA confirms it.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I don't know much about Kurt Wise, but if he gives Darwin credit for his predictions, then I don't think he was that "wise."

Dr. Wise merely points out the facts.   Darwin's numerous predictions of transitional forms have been repeatedly confirmed in fossil evidence.   Kurt Wise is a YE creationist, but he's honest enough to admit the fact.    As he remarks about the fossil record of whales, there is no creationist explanation for them.   Still, he thinks that there could be in the future.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I'm sorry, but since when is Australopithicus sebida or a chimanzee the "image of God?"

We don't know when God gave man a living soul and made him in His image.   You do realize that God is a spirit, so God doesn't have an adductor pollicis.   But if Adam happened to be of H. erectus before H. sapiens evolved, why would that be offensive to you?    H. erectus was almost identical to modern humans apart from some skull differences.    What difference would it make to God?   We don't know which humans were first given the gift of being in His image.   And it doesn't matter.

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Again, this is all based on ASSUMPTIONS and BIAS!

Evidence.    It's all based on the evidence.    There are many informed YE creationists who accept that the evidence shows one thing, while their understanding of scripture tells them something else.  

It doesn't matter to their salvation.   It won't matter to yours either.   Only those who make an idol of their YE beliefs are in danger of separating themselves from God.

 

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

So your saying that sin and death existed BEFORE Adam, even though scripture says it didn't? Can you show how God's creation WASN'T perfect, or how Adam WOULDN'T have lived forever when death DIDN'T exist yet?

Of course physical death existed before Adam.   Satan sinned, after all.   However, the death Adam brought into mankind was a spiritual death, not a physical one.   God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree.   But when Adam does this, he lives on for many years thereafter.  If God is truthful, then that death is not a physical one.

 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The female mosquito requires blood to produce eggs, it's own kind.

TODAY, that's true! HOWEVER, we don't know that mosquitos operated that way before the Flood. They probably received their nutrients for their normal lives, including for fertilization, directly from the plants upon which they normally fed.

They suffered from the need to be carnivores, just as much as the lions did! But, all this happened in the aftermath of the Flood!

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

(I had asked, "You DO realize, though, that before the Flood, all animals were herbivorous, right?")

...

I know some creationists want to believe that, but of course God never said that.

...

 

Shalom, The Barbarian.

I'd like to focus on this glaring error, first. Here's what God ACTUALLY SAID:

Genesis 1:29-31 (KJV)

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you (the couple) every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat":

and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

It is not until AFTER the Flood of Genesis 6-8 that we read,

Genesis 9:1-7 (KJV)

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."

NOW, there were predators in the earth!

[The Barbarian]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

  13 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The female mosquito requires blood to produce eggs, it's own kind.

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

TODAY, that's true! HOWEVER, we don't know that mosquitos operated that way before the Flood.

If you need to insert unscriptural assumptions to make it work, isn't that a pretty good clue that something is wrong.

And whatever beasts were in the garden, that has no bearing on what was outside the garden.

There would be no way for spiders to live without prey.   Nor would cats survive without meat.   

Taurine is an amino acid (the building blocks of protein) essential for cats. Taurine can only be found in animal sources such as meat, milk, etc. It is not found in plant sources. Taurine can be synthesized in humans and dogs, but cats are unable to do this and require a direct source from an animal product. Cats who are fed a vegan diet will often develop a deficiency of taurine because the diet doesn't provide them with this essential amino acid. 

Cats with taurine deficiency can develop a heart issue known as dilated cardiomyopathy or DCM. In cats with DCM, the heart muscle becomes very thin and weak, preventing them from pumping blood and supplying oxygen to the body normally. This is a fatal disease if not corrected early on. A lack of adequate taurine can also cause severe eye problems in cats, including blindness.

https://www.aspca.org/news/why-cant-my-cat-be-vegan

You could say "Well, God kept spiders, mosquitoes, cats, and other obligate predators out of the garden."  Or alternately, you could imagine that God just miraculously put taurine in plants back then.  But that would  be yet another unscriptural assumption.   This is one of the many reasons that most Christians realize that Genesis 1,2,and 3 are not literal histories, but figurative explanations of God's creation.

 

[HAZARD]

God created man to live forever in the natural body, as is clear from the fact that man would have lived a natural life forever if he had not sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The penalty for man's sin was death - -physical, spiritual, and eternal death. However, the fall of man did not cause God to change His original and eternal plan for man on the Earth. God cannot in the end suffer defeat, so He turned man's fall into a blessing by His plan to gather out of the race during the period of the fall an heavenly people to reign over the natural people who will be the redeemed from the fall, and all its effects, after the Millennium. The fall of man simply delayed the original purpose of God, but because of the delay God gained more than He would otherwise. As it is now, God will have an heavenly resurrected and glorified people who will reign over the coming generations of natural people. If the fall had not happened all men would have continued as natural people forever and there would have been no class of glorified saints from the human race to help God administer the affairs of the universe forever. After the Millennium natural man will be fully redeemed and will live on the New Earth just as Adam did before the fall, to carry out God's original purpose of replenishing the Earth with natural people (Gen. 1:27-31; 9:12; Isa. 45:18).

God has an eternal plan for mankind. These Scriptures are just a few of the many that teach an everlasting plan for man on the earth, and they mean exactly what they say, so they do not need interpretation (Gen.8:22; 9:12, 16; Gen. 17:7-9, 17; 26:1-4; 28:10-16; Ex. 15:17-19; 2 Sam. 7; Ps. 72 and 89; Isa. 9:6-7; 59:20-21; Da. 2:44; 7:13, 14, 18, 27; Ezek. 37:21-28; Zech. 14; Luke 1:32-33; Rev. 5:10; 22:3-5).

 

The fall of man does not do away with God's original purpose. It merely postpones it until the times of the restitution of all things, as before the first rebellion started on Earth against God's kingdom. One should try to conceive of the wonderful conditions that would have continued on Earth forever if man had not fallen. Then if he will transfer that idea to the New Earth after the Millennium, he will have the right idea of the eternal plan of God for man on the Earth. 

[BeyondET]

13 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

So your saying that sin and death existed BEFORE Adam, even though scripture says it didn't? Can you show how God's creation WASN'T perfect, or how Adam WOULDN'T have lived forever when death DIDN'T exist yet?

Why you do think the phrase "very good" has something to do with sin and death. you don't have to be perfect to be sinless and live. The earth wobbles a bit but it's very good.

Edited March 20, 2023 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

TODAY, that's true! HOWEVER, we don't know that mosquitos operated that way before the Flood. They probably received their nutrients for their normal lives, including for fertilization, directly from the plants upon which they normally fed.

They suffered from the need to be carnivores, just as much as the lions did! But, all this happened in the aftermath of the Flood!

Since it's not known it's best to stick with what is known of mosquitos.

Actually the male of the species only eats nectar. if you get picked by one it's a female, uses the bloodmeal for developing eggs though eats nectar as well.

The female species is highly tuned to sensing blood type. They know what type of blood you have before even jabbing a person and their preference is type O.

Edited March 20, 2023 by BeyondET

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

17 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

Why you do think the phrase "very good" has something to do with sin and death. you don't have to be perfect to be sinless and live. The earth wobbles a bit but it's very good.

I honestly don't understand your view here. Very Good can ONLY mean perfect. There is a reason that 1 verse is the only place in the whole bible God uses VERY good. Every other instance, he simply says good. And how exactly can one be sinless and NOT perfect? I don't understand that. I'm sure the earth didn't wobble at creation. Remember, seasons are a result of the curse.

[BeyondET]

5 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I honestly don't understand your view here. Very Good can ONLY mean perfect. There is a reason that 1 verse is the only place in the whole bible God uses VERY good. Every other instance, he simply says good. And how exactly can one be sinless and NOT perfect? I don't understand that. I'm sure the earth didn't wobble at creation. Remember, seasons are a result of the curse.

Very good isn't equal to perfection, sorry the two meanings are vastly different. God is perfect all else fall short of His Glory.

Seasons is mentioned in creation no it was not a result of a curse.

Edited March 20, 2023 by BeyondET