Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The point is that Romans 5 is about human death because of sin.  Adam was the FIRST human to sin.  The Bible does not say that there was no death before Adam.  Just no human death before Adam.

I think your really reaching on this one. Just because it doesn't mention animals doesn't mean they weren't included. There are lots of things that scripture doesn't specifically mention, but the meaning is clearly implied. Death is mentioned in a general sense. It doesn't say ONLY humans does it? If so, where?

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The point is that Romans 5 is about human death because of sin.  Adam was the FIRST human to sin.  The Bible does not say that there was no death before Adam.  Just no human death before Adam.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Nope. Look up the Greek. There's nothing that would suggest that the RESULTS were limited to human beings! It was "upon all the kosmos! " That's ALL of the "orderly system!"

[BeyondET]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The point is that Romans 5 is about human death because of sin.  Adam was the FIRST human to sin.  The Bible does not say that there was no death before Adam.  Just no human death before Adam.

The desert spider is a good example of that.

After the babies hatch their first meal is the mother, talk about long suffering. She sacrifices herself to insure the species survival.

Theres quit afew species that perform matriphagy "offspring that eats the mother".

Edited March 22, 2023 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

FreeGrace said: 

The point is that Romans 5 is about human death because of sin.  Adam was the FIRST human to sin.  The Bible does not say that there was no death before Adam.  Just no human death before Adam.

I think your really reaching on this one.

That's fine.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

13 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Just because it doesn't mention animals doesn't mean they weren't included.

And everyone is entitled to assume, presume, and guess as well.

13 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

There are lots of things that scripture doesn't specifically mention, but the meaning is clearly implied. Death is mentioned in a general sense. It doesn't say ONLY humans does it? If so, where?

I don't presume anything.  If the Bible doesn't say something, I don't either.  This thread is about YECs.  I have studied Gen 1:2 and key words show that there is a time gap between v.1 and v.2.  I searched for the exact same words in other OT verses, and found that the common translations show a time gap.

So, I have no problem with animal death way before Adam sinned.  I understand Genesis 1 as a restoration rather than original creation, except v.1.

Accepting the standard and universal translation of Gen 1:2 creates a direct contradiction with Isa 45:18.  So I'm very comfortable with my understanding.  I don't like contradictions and concerning the Bible, there are NO contradictions.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

FreeGrace said: 

The point is that Romans 5 is about human death because of sin.  Adam was the FIRST human to sin.  The Bible does not say that there was no death before Adam.  Just no human death before Adam.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Nope. Look up the Greek. There's nothing that would suggest that the RESULTS were limited to human beings! It was "upon all the kosmos! " That's ALL of the "orderly system!"

The effects of Adam's sin led to the death of both humans and the animal kingdom.  That is correct.  And God's solution to Adam's sin was sacrifice of animals to cover their bodies.  

And since the traditional universal translation of Gen 1:2 creates a contradiction with Isa 45:18, I prefer to believe that there IS a time gap between v.1 and v.2 and there were many animals way before Adam came along.  And all died way before he came along.  I view Genesis 1 as a summary restoration of creation, except v.1 IS original creation.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, BeyondET said:

The desert spider is a good example of that.

After the babies hatch their first meal is the mother, talk about long suffering. She sacrifices herself to insure the species survival.

Theres quit afew species that perform matriphagy "offspring that eats the mother".

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

The effects of Adam's sin led to the death of both humans and the animal kingdom.  That is correct.  And God's solution to Adam's sin was sacrifice of animals to cover their bodies.  

Shalom, FreeGrace.

I agree, but in honesty we must admit that too is an assumption. GOD dressed them in tunics of leather, but it doesn't say how He acquired the leather.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

And since the traditional universal translation of Gen 1:2 creates a contradiction with Isa 45:18, I prefer to believe that there IS a time gap between v.1 and v.2 and there were many animals way before Adam came along.  And all died way before he came along.  I view Genesis 1 as a summary restoration of creation, except v.1 IS original creation.

No. Genesis 1:1 is a SUMMATION of what is to follow.

[FreeGrace]

22 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FreeGrace.

I agree, but in honesty we must admit that too is an assumption. GOD dressed them in tunics of leather, but it doesn't say how He acquired the leather.

Gen 3:21 - The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

Where does one get leather with which to make tunics?  Animals.  And if one is humane, they first kill the animal before removing the skin (leather).

22 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

No. Genesis 1:1 is a SUMMATION of what is to follow.

Except v.2 doesn't allow for that assumption.  

v.2 - BUT, (junjunction of contrast) the earth BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND.

That is how the key words are translated elsewhere in the OT.

The LXX begins v.2 with "de" the conjunction of contrast.  In the Hebrew, the word is a disjunctive.  So a difference is shown.  And the same exact form of "hayah", a verb of existence, meaning "to be or become" is translated as "became/become" about 70% of the time in all it's other uses in the OT.

And, if one accepts the universal translation of v.2, there is a direct contradiction with Isa 45:18.

[The Barbarian]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Nope. Look up the Greek. There's nothing that would suggest that the RESULTS were limited to human beings! It was "upon all the kosmos! " That's ALL of the "orderly system!"

"Kosmos" (κόσμος) is used in Luke 2:1 And it came to pass, that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that the whole world should be enrolled.

Meaning "extent of the Roman Empire."   Same koine Greek used.   So it's not what we have come to regard as the cosmos.

Kosmos

kos'-mos

Noun Masculine

NAS Word Usage - Total: 186

1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
3. the world, the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
   1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
   1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
   2. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

"The whole nine yards", as we said in the AF.   Too flexible to be leaning on it.

 

[kwikphilly]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:54 PM, The Barbarian said:

That seems like a nonstarter to me.

God didn't say "someday you will die."   He said it would happen that day.   So whatever death there was, happened the same day that Adam ate from the tree.  But Adam lived on physically for many years thereafter.  

If God is truthful, then we know it wasn't a physical death.

 

You know we are not going to agree on that Brother,no matter how many times I tell you I agree on that day Adam died Spiritually and his death sentence began& no matter how many times you say whats in the quotes -& the funny thing is I'm not really disagreeing with you except that I know that before he ate of that fruit death of any kind was not in him,he was not going to die in 900 yes- but his body began the process of corruption,decay,death on that day ....lol,but that's our different perspective & I love ya!