Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[ChristB4us]

On 4/25/2023 at 6:13 PM, FreeGrace said:

Amen.  Adam died spiritually that day and began the dying process we call aging.

I am not sure Adam had died spiritually, but I agree with him starting the aging process which leads to physical death.

I believe Adam died spiritually if you are referring to his sin separating him from God.

But the term "sons of God" is the godly lineage that was assumed to have been started by Abel and continued by Seth but when doing the genealogy we find Adam as connected to these godly lineage of Seth as the sons of God.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Now instead of by blood lineage or by Judaism as if done by the will of men, the sons of God are born of God of all those who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I digress by that current side point of truth;

Anyway, for Cain & Abel to be taking time out to present their offerings to God, Adam had to start something for them to be doing that offering in rekindling & maintaining that broken relationship with God since Adam was listed as one of the sons of God.

Another side note of truth; the sons of God were never angels since they cannot marry nor be given in marriage, let alone fallen angels to be even called the sons of God & thus the Book of Enoch is a fraud.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I am not sure Adam had died spiritually, but I agree with him starting the aging process which leads to physical death.

The verse is quite clear that "on THAT day" he would DIE.  And he did.  But not physically.  The only other option would be spiritual death.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I believe Adam died spiritually if you are referring to his sin separating him from God.

Yes.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Anyway, for Cain & Abel to be taking time out to present their offerings to God, Adam had to start something for them to be doing that offering in rekindling & maintaining that broken relationship with God since Adam was listed as one of the sons of God.

Since the gospel was present in Gen 3:16, and God did provide clothing for them thru animal sacrifice, which demonstrated the coming sacrifice of God's Son for mankind, the presenting of offerings to God was to show understanding of the atonement.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Another side note of truth; the sons of God were never angels since they cannot marry nor be given in marriage, let alone fallen angels to be even called the sons of God & thus the Book of Enoch is a fraud.

The words "sons of God" can refer to either angels or humans.  Genesis 6 is about fallen angels who created a "super race", for which Christ would not die for.  This was an attack on God's plan for humans by contaminating humanity with angelic "DNA", or whatever they were created with.

If the book of Enoch was a fraud, then the Holy Spirit wouldn't have quoted from it, which would only spread false doctrine farther.  

Gen 6 is quite controversial and it is doubtful that anyone will change anyone else's mind about it.

[ChristB4us]

10 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The words "sons of God" can refer to either angels or humans.  Genesis 6 is about fallen angels who created a "super race", for which Christ would not die for.  This was an attack on God's plan for humans by contaminating humanity with angelic "DNA", or whatever they were created with.

If the book of Enoch was a fraud, then the Holy Spirit wouldn't have quoted from it, which would only spread false doctrine farther.  

Gen 6 is quite controversial and it is doubtful that anyone will change anyone else's mind about it.

You are versed in Hebrew.  What does the Hebrew has "sons of God" defined as?  One who builds a family;  a builder of the family name?

Jesus said this;

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God does not marry angels.

God does not marry same sex couples.

God does not marry humans with beasts.

So how can God marry angels to the daughters of men? 

How can the sons of God be considered fallen angels if their purpose was to thwart the coming seed of Christ? 

Would God help evil thwart His own plans? No.

God would not join them together for them to be called wives to them in His words.

So... sons of God is a sole reference to Israel's family tree.  Never the angels.

Granted, there is a reference in Job that is confusing to the readers and the naysayers but in the 2 times that Satan was with the sons of God presenting themselves to the Lord, Job was among the sons of God as God was pointing Job out to Satan.  So it is a matter of discerning that which readers & naysayers are misunderstanding that passage in Job was about obviously as Job was among the sons of God praising His work in creation for how he ought to know;  not that he was there with the sons of God for when He laid the foundation.

In Genesis, if that evil was the case for why God flooded the world which was to prevent the Christ's seed from coming, He would have led with that, but He did not.

Genesis 6:1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Verse 5 is the reason;  nothing else as confirmed after the flood below.

Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

It was not for fallen angels mingling with mankind.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

You are versed in Hebrew.  What does the Hebrew has "sons of God" defined as?  One who builds a family;  a builder of the family name?

Not exactly "versed".  But I have read what scholars say.  The Hebrew is straightforward, per lexicons.  Scholars say the term can mean angels or humans, depending on the context.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Jesus said this;

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God does not marry angels.

God does not marry same sex couples.

God does not marry humans with beasts.

So how can God marry angels to the daughters of men?

First, God does not hold marriage ceremonies.  Not even Adam and Eve.  He simply "built" the woman (no pun intenGded) and brought her to him.  And then gave His plan for mankind.  Gen 2:18, 21-25.

God clearly commands that humans do not have sex with animals.  Why?  Because it is possible but forbidden.  Same for same sex.  Possible but forbidden.  Both go against His divine plan for the human race.

So, here's the thing:  bestiality is equivalent to angels having sex with humans.  Both involve different types of creation.  And God never said that angels aren't capable of having sex.  He said angels in heaven don't marry or procreate.

Matt 22:30 - For in the resurrection they (humans) neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

How can the sons of God be considered fallen angels if their purpose was to thwart the coming seed of Christ?

What else would the purpose be of fallen angels, who follow the chief fallen angel, Satan?  

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Would God help evil thwart His own plans? No.

Of course not.  But God has clearly allowed Satan all kinds of behaviors, like deceiving the whole world, demon possession, etc.  I strongly believe that the "storm on the lake" was demonic; a perfect place to end God's Son and His 12 disciples at once.  While the Bible doesn't say this, why would Jesus REBUKE the wind and waves, if they came from His Father, just to show His power?  That is a key fact to consider.  I believe Jesus was directly rebuking Satan.  We know from Job that Satan had power over weather, so it seems to be a no brainer.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

God would not join them together for them to be called wives to them in His words.

The only 2 that God joined together were A&E.  Everyone else makes their own choices.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

So... sons of God is a sole reference to Israel's family tree.  Never the angels.

And that disagrees with many Hebrew scholars.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Granted, there is a reference in Job that is confusing to the readers and the naysayers but in the 2 times that Satan was with the sons of God presenting themselves to the Lord, Job was among the sons of God as God was pointing Job out to Satan.

So, Job was IN heaven with all the angels?  Not a chance.  Here is the text:

Job 1-

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 

2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 

3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East. 

4 His sons used to hold feasts in their homes on their birthdays, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 

5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom. 

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 

7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” 

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” 

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 

10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 

11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” 

12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

v.1-5 is the set up which introduces the righteous man Job.

v.6-8 describes an angelic convocation in heaven, where God brings up Job.

v.8-11 is Satan's response and LYING accusation; that God is a briber, and Job was in on it.  He was impuning the character of both God and Job, a righteous man.

v.12 is God's permission for Satan to destroy all that Job had, but he couldn't physically touch Job himself.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

  So it is a matter of discerning that which readers & naysayers are misunderstanding that passage in Job was about obviously as Job was among the sons of God praising His work in creation for how he ought to know;  not that he was there with the sons of God for when He laid the foundation.

See explanation above for accurate understanding.  And provide evidence if I erred in any point.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

In Genesis, if that evil was the case for why God flooded the world which was to prevent the Christ's seed from coming, He would have led with that, but He did not.

Don't know what you mean by "God would have LED with that". Genesis was laid out in chronographical order.  

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Genesis 6:1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Verse 5 is the reason;  nothing else as confirmed after the flood below.

Sure, man WAS evil.  But read the context, v.4 and 5, which explains the progeny of the union between fallen angel and human.  Violent giants.

I did a term paper in my senior year (too many years ago) comparing the 3 main myths:  Roman, Nordic and Greek.  Though was was totally ignorant of Genesis 6, the comparison shows great parallels between all 3 myths, the main difference was about their names.  Serious Hebrew scholars believe these myths were actual accounts during the time leading up  to the flood, because all 3 accounts describe the "sons of God" has being super human, and their progeny also super human.  

Each person must face these facts and then decide what to believe.  Thankfully, it has nothing to do with our salvation, or spiritual growth.  For me, I just want to be correct in my understanding of Scripture.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

It was not for fallen angels mingling with mankind.

OK, after considering the facts I've presented, that's your right to your own opinion.

When we step into eternity, we will know what is right.

[DeighAnn]

On 3/7/2023 at 5:48 PM, HAZARD said:

Scriptures show that originally, Long before Adam and Eve were created, God created the Earth and placed Lucifer as ruler of the society there.

From what I understand/understood

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The dragons kingdom was created in heaven,

the stars were taken in by his tale while STILL in heaven, and it was because of that

we were cast to the earth, to this age, made a little lower than the angels, partakers of the flesh and blood.  Up until then I guess I just thought of the earth as a 'playground' of sorts.  Coming and going like we read of in Job.  

But wait, that would be people living on earth.  HUMMMM....

It never seemed really all that 'voluntary' to me, but I am a bit lost in the logistics now.  Especially when I add in Jeremiah 4 and Job because there were cities destroyed.... and  

So how did you get that kingdom from heaven to the earth?   Who do you see ruling over the sons of God when the earth was created?  Do you see Lucifer ruling in heaven at all?  

If Satan did have his kingdom on earth, was everyone in spiritual bodies? 




 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Another side note of truth; the sons of God were never angels since they cannot marry nor be given in marriage, let alone fallen angels to be even called the sons of God & thus the Book of Enoch is a fraud.

That is in the resurrection of the dead though, right? 

The angels did marry the daughters of men back before the flood, hence the flood.

[DeighAnn]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:27 PM, NConly said:

If one looks this with 11 Peter 3:8 in mind Adam died in that day.

I believe our earth body became corrupted and so the process of death began, but his spiritual body 'died' which is why we need to be born from above, because it would no longer be 'passed on' though birth of the flesh 

and to provide a place for the Holy Spirit to dwell within us (that isn't full of sin) and also the reason we 'eat' THE words and body of Christ and drink the blood of the New Covenant being made 'new creatures'  

[ChristB4us]

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Not exactly "versed".  But I have read what scholars say.  The Hebrew is straightforward, per lexicons.  Scholars say the term can mean angels or humans, depending on the context.

The same scholars that believe the behemoth in Job 40th chapter was an elephant, hippo, or an alligator?  Don't let them do your homework for you when the evolution theory has tainted the education of scholars for how they read the Bible now.

The English word "son" was derived from the Hebrew word "ben" which is defined as ;  from 'banah' (1129); a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like ''ab' (1), ''ach' (251), etc.)):--+ afflicted, age, (Ahoh-) (Ammon-) (Hachmon-) (Lev-)ite, (anoint-)ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, (Assyr-) (Babylon-) (Egypt-) (Grec-)ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, + spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant(-est), whelp, worthy, young (one), youth.

King James Bible Strong's Hebrew Dictionary

Quote

First, God does not hold marriage ceremonies.  Not even Adam and Eve.  

Jesus said this;

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

The marriage covenant is what God performs and this is why He would not be joining any fallen angel to a woman to be called a wife to that fallen angel in His words.  The sons of God are the godly lineage of Seth that the nation of Israel came from as all other children of Adam that were not of Seth, were not of that godly lineage as these were the lineages that the sons of God married into.

This can also be taken as a Biblical example for why the nation of Israel was not to marry outside the nation of Israel, but they did it anyway.

Therefore the sons of God was always a reference to Israel's family tree, but now the sons of God is a reference to Christians as the new sons of God under the New Covenant by being believers in Jesus Christ. 

[ChristB4us]

15 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

That is in the resurrection of the dead though, right? 

The angels did marry the daughters of men back before the flood, hence the flood.

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

The marriage covenant is what God performs and this is why He would not be joining any fallen angel to a woman to be called a wife to that fallen angel in His words.  The sons of God are the godly lineage of Seth that the nation of Israel came from as all other children of Adam that were not of Seth, were not of that godly lineage as these were the lineages that the sons of God married into.

This can also be taken as a Biblical example for why the nation of Israel was not to marry outside the nation of Israel, but they did it anyway.

Therefore the sons of God was always a reference to Israel's family tree whereas now the sons of God are the believers in Jesus Christ.

Plus:  Jesus said this;

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God does not marry angels and certainly would not marry or join fallen angels to women to be called wives in His words.

[DeighAnn]

48 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

The marriage covenant is what God performs and this is why He would not be joining any fallen angel to a woman to be called a wife to that fallen angel in His words.  The sons of God are the godly lineage of Seth that the nation of Israel came from as all other children of Adam that were not of Seth, were not of that godly lineage as these were the lineages that the sons of God married into.

This can also be taken as a Biblical example for why the nation of Israel was not to marry outside the nation of Israel, but they did it anyway.

Therefore the sons of God was always a reference to Israel's family tree whereas now the sons of God are the believers in Jesus Christ.

Plus:  Jesus said this;

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God does not marry angels and certainly would not marry or join fallen angels to women to be called wives in His words.

EXCEPT FOR 

These SONS OF GOD were WATCHING and celebrating the EARTH BEING CREATED
 

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

AND THESE SONS OF GOD came unto the daughters of MEN and we know they were angels because THEIR OFFSPRING show it.  
 

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

AND JUDE is a second witness
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.



And another
 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" 2 Peter 2:4 KJV



which all ties in with
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 SATAN and his ANGELS are cast to the earth and we read
"For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels." 1 Corinthians 11:10 KJV



"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Hebrews 13:2 KJV

"Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full." Psalms 78:25 KJV

"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." Hebrews 1:7 KJV