Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shalom, FreeGrace, and consequentially, The Barbarian.

Sorry, but that is a POOR translation of Genesis 2:17. It's wrong to say "dying, you shall die." That's NOT what God said!

The Hebrew is - once again,

B'reeshiyt 2:17 (Westminster Leningrad Codex)

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ הַדַּ֙עַת֙ טֹ֣וב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ כִּ֗י בְּיֹ֛ום אֲכָלְךָ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מֹ֥ות תָּמֽוּת׃

This transliterates to ...

17 Uwmee`eets hadda`at TowV vaaraa` lo' to'khal mimmennuw kiy byowm 'akhaalkhaa mimmennuw mowt taamowt:

This translates word-for-word to ...

17 And-from-the-tree of-the-knowledge of-good and-evil not you-shall-eat from-it for in-[the]-day that-you-eat (Qal-infinitive construct) from-it surely (the word is repeated for emphasis, Qal Infinitive absolute) you-shall-die (Qal imperfect in the 2nd-person, masculine, singular form).

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar says on p. 342 (Section 113, n),

"n (a) The infinitive absolute used before the verb to strengthen the verbal idea, i.e. to emphasize in this way either the certainty (especially in the case of threats) or the forcibleness and completeness of an occurrence. In English, such an infinitive is mostly expressed by a corresponding adverb, but sometimes merely by putting greater stress on the verb; e.g. Gn 2:17 מֹ֥ות תָּמֽוּת thou shalt surely die, ..."

BE VERY CAREFUL of putting words in GOD'S mouth!

Interesting.  Yet, I've heard a number of Hebrew scholars who say that "death" is doubled in the Hebrew.  And I've read it on websites.  Some dismiss that as a Hebraism or however that is spelled.  Doubling the word for emphasis.

But it can easily be argued that there were 2 deaths "on that day".  One was immediate, which is spiritual death.  Since God created Adam "in THEIR image", that would include body, soul and human spirit.  So spiritual death is the death of the human spirit.  So man is born physically alive, but spiritually dead (human spirit present but non0functional).  Jesus noted to the woman at the well that man just worship God "in spirit and in truth".  This would be a reference to a living human spirit, which is quickened or made alive or regenerated or born again at conversion.

And man began to age "on that day", resulting in physical death ultimately.

If you think that Adam only died one kind of death 'on that day', please explain what kind of death he did experience.  Thanks.

[The Barbarian]

If the argument depends on saying "the Bible is wrong", I'm not impressed with it. 

Why not just accept it as it is?   If it refers to a physical death, then Adam would have died physically that day.   Not "started to age", not "began to die."   He would have died physically that day.

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by The Barbarian

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Interesting.  Yet, I've heard a number of Hebrew scholars who say that "death" is doubled in the Hebrew.  And I've read it on websites.  Some dismiss that as a Hebraism or however that is spelled.  Doubling the word for emphasis.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Yes, it was doubled for emphasis. You can even see that it's been doubled with a cursory look at the words "מֹ֥ות תָּמֽוּת," transliterated as "MOWT taaMOWT." However, one must be aware of the parts of speech, as well. The first word is considered the Qal infinitive absolute, and the second word is considered the Qal imperfect in the second-person, masculine gender, and singular number. They work together to form what is known as the Qal infinitive construct state. Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar covers this from p. 347 to p. 352 in section 114.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

But it can easily be argued that there were 2 deaths "on that day".  One was immediate, which is spiritual death.  Since God created Adam "in THEIR image", that would include body, soul and human spirit.  So spiritual death is the death of the human spirit.  

This philosophy doesn't come from the Scriptures but comes from one's THEOLOGY. The Hebrew word "רוּחַ" or "ruwach," which is often translated as "spirit," actually means "a wind." That's the word's primary meaning! It is then used to express things LIKE the "wind," such as a person's "breath."

7307 ruwach רוּחַ (roo'-akh). From ruwach (the root verb); wind; BY RESEMBLANCE breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; FIGURATIVELY, life, anger, unsubstantiality; BY EXTENSION, a region of the sky; BY RESEMBLANCE spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

Notice that in this entry from the "Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary" of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (which I use because it is readily available to most people whi are students of God's Word) that the writer adds the words "but only of a rational being." HOWEVER, the word is also used of animals as well as God and people!

It's really very simple: Animals that are nafshiym (the plural of nefesh, meaning an "air-breathing creature") have to "breathe," too! Therefore, they, too, have a "breath" a "ruwach! "

I'm sitting at my computer with my dogs asleep at my feet, and I'm watching the movement of their muscles to make movements in their diaphragms to move air in and out of their bodies while they sleep. If they stopped doing that, they would die, as any air-breather would. They HAVE a "breath" - a "ruwach," just as people do.

Consider...

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 (KJV)

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, THEY HAVE ALL ONE BREATH; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The Hebrew of the latter part of verse 19 is ...

וְר֥וּחַ אֶחָ֖ד לַכֹּ֑ל וּמֹותַ֨ר הָאָדָ֤ם מִן־הַבְּהֵמָה֙ אָ֔יִן כִּ֥י הַכֹּ֖ל הָֽבֶל׃

This transliterates to ...

19b vruwach 'echaad lakol uwmowtar maa'aadaam min-habheemaah 'aayin kiy hakol haaVel:

This translates word-for-word to ...

19b and-breath one to-the-whole and-advantage from-red-[man] from-the-beast has-none for the-whole [is]-a-vapor.

Here's the Hebrew of verse 21:

מִ֣י יֹודֵ֗עַ ר֚וּחַ בְּנֵ֣י הָאָדָ֔ם הָעֹלָ֥ה הִ֖יא לְמָ֑עְלָה וְר֙וּחַ֙ הַבְּהֵמָ֔ה הַיֹּרֶ֥דֶת הִ֖יא לְמַ֥טָּה לָאָֽרֶץ׃

This is transliterated to ...

21 Miy yowdeea` ruwach bneey haa'aadaam haa`olaah hiy' lmaa`laah vruwach habheemaah hayyoredet hiy' lmaTTaah laa'aarets:

This is translated word-for-word to ...

21 Who knows a-breath of-the-sons of-the-red-[man] which-goes it-(feminine) to-above/upward and-a-breath of-the-beast which-goes it to-below/downward to-the-land/earth.

One should not take this to be some higher insight; it's simply that when a person dies, he or she is usually on his or her back, and when he or she expires for the last time, the breath goes upward. When an animal dies, it is usually either on its side or on its belly, and its breath goes downward to the ground. 

The "preacher" (King Solomon) was simply making the point that we all - human beings and animals alike - die the same way, we expire, we breathe our last, and we die.

By itself, this could be a depressing thought, but one must remember "the dropping of the other shoe!" THE RESURRECTION is promised!

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So man is born physically alive, but spiritually dead (human spirit present but non-functional).  

Nope. Again, this comes from theological philosophy, not from the Scriptures. One should NOT expect to see the "spirit" as anything other than one's "breath," which resembles a "wind." It's what goes in and out of us all day and all night, for as long as we are given to live. When we die, we give up the "spirit" - we give up the "breath," and we die. This tripartite view of man (or animals) is not supported in the Bible. Instead, we are the body, we have a breath, and as long as we breathe, we are "breathing creatures," "souls." NONE of these "parts" or words goes to "Heaven" when we die! Instead, we are to look forward to the RESURRECTION! Look to the Creator God who will remake us as we were before with some improvements: We will be glorious bodies, that is, bodies that GLOW! We will be air-BLASTING bodies, rather than mere air-breathing bodies! We will become bodies that can no longer decay and therefore, we will become bodies that can no longer die! We become incorruptible and immortal!

We'll have jobs to do first; that's what the Millennium is all about, however, we are to anticipate what most call "Heaven," the New Jerusalem, coming HERE after the earth has been renovated!

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Jesus noted to the woman at the well that man just worship God "in spirit and in truth".  This would be a reference to a living human spirit, which is quickened or made alive or regenerated or born again at conversion.

"Spirit" in this context means "what a person SAYS that he or she believes" with his or her "breath." And, the "truth" is the concrete immutability of the Scriptures.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And man began to age "on that day", resulting in physical death ultimately.

If you think that Adam only died one kind of death 'on that day', please explain what kind of death he did experience.  Thanks.

Sure. He died a physical death. Before he sinned and was cursed, he did NOT have any physical death anywhere in his body. He would have indeed lived forever, IF he had not disobeyed God. Before his disobedience, he was righteous and good. We use the term "innocent." He was completely righteous. But, ONE SIN is all it takes to make one unrighteous. He was no longer "perfect"; he was no longer "completely righteous." And, because we are his progeny, we SHARE in that imperfection, that unrighteousness. We, like him, now have the PROPENSITY to sin! And, through him, we all have become mortal! This is what Paul said,

Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[FreeGrace]

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

FreeGrace said: 

But it can easily be argued that there were 2 deaths "on that day".  One was immediate, which is spiritual death.  Since God created Adam "in THEIR image", that would include body, soul and human spirit.  So spiritual death is the death of the human spirit. 

This philosophy doesn't come from the Scriptures but comes from one's THEOLOGY.

But, where does "theology" come from?  The word means the study of God.  So the Bible is the source.  I presented facts of what Scripture does say about spiritual death, and regeneration, made alive, quickened, and born again.  Those are biblical words.  Do you believe they aren't relevant to God's warning to Adam about eating the forbidden fruit??  

So, what "death" occurred "on THAT day"?  If not 2, then only one would have occurred.  Since we know that Adam didn't fall over "on that day", it would have to be spiritual only.  So, what is your explanation for the fact that Adam did die physically later on?

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 (KJV)

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, THEY HAVE ALL ONE BREATH; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The Hebrew of the latter part of verse 19 is ...

וְר֥וּחַ אֶחָ֖ד לַכֹּ֑ל וּמֹותַ֨ר הָאָדָ֤ם מִן־הַבְּהֵמָה֙ אָ֔יִן כִּ֥י הַכֹּ֖ל הָֽבֶל׃

This transliterates to ...

19b vruwach 'echaad lakol uwmowtar maa'aadaam min-habheemaah 'aayin kiy hakol haaVel:

This translates word-for-word to ...

19b and-breath one to-the-whole and-advantage from-red-[man] from-the-beast has-none for the-whole [is]-a-vapor.

Here's the Hebrew of verse 21:

מִ֣י יֹודֵ֗עַ ר֚וּחַ בְּנֵ֣י הָאָדָ֔ם הָעֹלָ֥ה הִ֖יא לְמָ֑עְלָה וְר֙וּחַ֙ הַבְּהֵמָ֔ה הַיֹּרֶ֥דֶת הִ֖יא לְמַ֥טָּה לָאָֽרֶץ׃

This is transliterated to ...

21 Miy yowdeea` ruwach bneey haa'aadaam haa`olaah hiy' lmaa`laah vruwach habheemaah hayyoredet hiy' lmaTTaah laa'aarets:

This is translated word-for-word to ...

21 Who knows a-breath of-the-sons of-the-red-[man] which-goes it-(feminine) to-above/upward and-a-breath of-the-beast which-goes it to-below/downward to-the-land/earth.

One should not take this to be some higher insight; it's simply that when a person dies, he or she is usually on his or her back, and when he or she expires for the last time, the breath goes upward. When an animal dies, it is usually either on its side or on its belly, and its breath goes downward to the ground. 

The "preacher" (King Solomon) was simply making the point that we all - human beings and animals alike - die the same way, we expire, we breathe our last, and we die.

However, none of this is relevant to God's warning to Adam about eating the forbidden fruit.  Yes, all mammals and all humans physically die and their breath goes out, but this isn't the discussion.  It's about God's warning to Adam.

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

By itself, this could be a depressing thought, but one must remember "the dropping of the other shoe!" THE RESURRECTION is promised!

Amen there!!

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Nope. Again, this comes from theological philosophy, not from the Scriptures. One should NOT expect to see the "spirit" as anything other than one's "breath," which resembles a "wind." It's what goes in and out of us all day and all night, for as long as we are given to live. When we die, we give up the "spirit" - we give up the "breath," and we die. This tripartite view of man (or animals) is not supported in the Bible.

Can you explain how God created man "in THEIR image" apart from trichotomy?  Trichotomy does a fine job of it.  How do you explain it?

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Instead, we are the body, we have a breath, and as long as we breathe, we are "breathing creatures," "souls." NONE of these "parts" or words goes to "Heaven" when we die! Instead, we are to look forward to the RESURRECTION! Look to the Creator God who will remake us as we were before with some improvements: We will be glorious bodies, that is, bodies that GLOW! We will be air-BLASTING bodies, rather than mere air-breathing bodies! We will become bodies that can no longer decay and therefore, we will become bodies that can no longer die! We become incorruptible and immortal!

I take Heb 4:12 literally, and therefore, believers have a soul AND a spirit, which is discerned by God's Word.  And 1 Thess 5:21 plainly tells us about "the body, soul and spirit".  Kinda hard to avoid, imho.

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

"Spirit" in this context means "what a person SAYS that he or she believes" with his or her "breath." And, the "truth" is the concrete immutability of the Scriptures.

So, "spirit" is a thought??   Hm.  Jesus told the woman at the well that we must worship God "in spirit and in truthy".  What did He mean?

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

FreeGrace said: 

And man began to age "on that day", resulting in physical death ultimately.

If you think that Adam only died one kind of death 'on that day', please explain what kind of death he did experience.  Thanks.

Sure. He died a physical death. Before he sinned and was cursed, he did NOT have any physical death anywhere in his body. He would have indeed lived forever, IF he had not disobeyed God. Before his disobedience, he was righteous and good. We use the term "innocent." He was completely righteous. But, ONE SIN is all it takes to make one unrighteous. He was no longer "perfect"; he was no longer "completely righteous." And, because we are his progeny, we SHARE in that imperfection, that unrighteousness. We, like him, now have the PROPENSITY to sin! And, through him, we all have become mortal!

But Adam DIDN'T die "on that day" physically.  That occurred about 930 years later.

Of course, what no one knows is how long Adam lived in the Garden BEFORE he sinned.  Could have been as soon as he finished all his work that God assigned him and gave him a woman, or a thousand years.  We simply have no idea.  So I take the 930 years as from when he sinned and age became an issue.

10 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

This is what Paul said,

Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul also wrote 1 Thess 5:21, mentioning the believer's trichotomy of body, soul and spirit.  I just can't ignore that verse nor Heb 4:12.

[Retrobyter]

39 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

If the argument depends on saying "the Bible is wrong", I'm not impressed with it. 

Why not just accept it as it is?   If it refers to a physical death, then Adam would have died physically that day.   Not "started to age", not "began to die."   He would have died physically that day.

He DID die physically that day! He went from a creature that had no cells dying, to a totally different kind of creature that had multiple cells dying throughout his body! It was a DRASTIC change, and I'm sure he felt the difference! His systems had to adjust to the new circumstances, and he had to adjust to new living conditions! 

Before, he ate herbs and fruits and that part didn't change after his curse; however, before the curse, the food was provided for him. After the curse, he had to WORK for his food! He had to till the ground and plant his food! He had to keep the ground weeded and fertilize the plants he was growing for food! He had to work in the hot sun and sweat to keep cool.

From that time on, death would be a RELEASE from the suffering he would endure! And, he was not allowed to die until he was 930 years old!

Many people today work in what they consider "dead-end jobs," forced to labor for their wages or go hungry and homeless. Some will be able to retire and are looking forward to that time when they can retire and enjoy their lives at the end of their existence. However, many aren't looking forward to retirement, knowing that they will have to continue working until the day they die. For them, life is a punishment and they LONG for the day of their death! I imagine this is the way that Adam felt, ready to die, and having death withheld from him for 930 years!

[The Barbarian]

45 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

He DID die physically that day!

Not according to God.  God says he died hundreds of years later.

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Again, it seems to me that claiming the Bible has this wrong, is not a good argument.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He DID die physically that day! He went from a creature that had no cells dying, to a totally different kind of creature that had multiple cells dying throughout his body! It was a DRASTIC change, and I'm sure he felt the difference! His systems had to adjust to the new circumstances, and he had to adjust to new living conditions!

Have to disagree there.  The text says "on THAT day, YOU will surely DIE".  It doesn't say "begin to age", or "slowly (930 years later) die".  

Adam most assuredly did die "on THAT day".  It was a spiritual death, and the death that Adam passed on to the human race is spiritual death.  

We must remember that there was the "tree of life" also in the garden and no prohibition on that tree.  However, AFTER the sin, there was a prohibition on eating that fruit.  So, by being prohibited from that tree, Adam couldn't keep on living in the way he had been.

So he DID begin to die, cell by cell, until the rate of cell death exceeded the rate of cell regeneration and he finally keeled over.  Deader than a door nail.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

From that time on, death would be a RELEASE from the suffering he would endure! And, he was not allowed to die until he was 930 years old!

Doesn't make sense to me.  If Gen 2:17 does mean two deaths, it is easily explained.  If if only means 1 death, that death has to be spiritual.  And by being prohibited from the tree of life, which apparently sustained his life, he ultimately did die.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Many people today work in what they consider "dead-end jobs," forced to labor for their wages or go hungry and homeless. Some will be able to retire and are looking forward to that time when they can retire and enjoy their lives at the end of their existence. However, many aren't looking forward to retirement, knowing that they will have to continue working until the day they die. For them, life is a punishment and they LONG for the day of their death! I imagine this is the way that Adam felt, ready to die, and having death withheld from him for 930 years!

Your generalization is incorrect.  This is only what is assumed to be true, esp from the viewpoint of atheists who think that death ends all consciousness.  Kinda like the annihilationists.

For unbelievers, they have no idea at all of how much suffering they will face after physical death.  First, Hades, as described in Luke 16 and the rich man.  Second, the LOF, which lasts for eternity.

[kwikphilly]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Have to disagree there.  The text says "on THAT day, YOU will surely DIE".  It doesn't say "begin to age", or "slowly (930 years later) die".  

Adam most assuredly did die "on THAT day".  It was a spiritual death, and the death that Adam passed on to the human race is spiritual death.  

We must remember that there was the "tree of life" also in the garden and no prohibition on that tree.  However, AFTER the sin, there was a prohibition on eating that fruit.  So, by being prohibited from that tree, Adam couldn't keep on living in the way he had been.

So he DID begin to die, cell by cell, until the rate of cell death exceeded the rate of cell regeneration and he finally keeled over.  Deader than a door nail.

Doesn't make sense to me.  If Gen 2:17 does mean two deaths, it is easily explained.  If if only means 1 death, that death has to be spiritual.  And by being prohibited from the tree of life, which apparently sustained his life, he ultimately did die.

Your generalization is incorrect.  This is only what is assumed to be true, esp from the viewpoint of atheists who think that death ends all consciousness.  Kinda like the annihilationists.

For unbelievers, they have no idea at all of how much suffering they will face after physical death.  First, Hades, as described in Luke 16 and the rich man.  Second, the LOF, which lasts for eternity.

Where have you been,I was thinking about you! I'm so glad to see you here.... Did you happen to notice my lil 2 cents about Hebrew idiom ( the language of that time as well)?

And I certainly do agree about the Spiritual death but also the physical- my post explains.   Of course God's Word is Never wrong❤️

I'm happy to see you Brother

In His Love, Kwik

( And just like Barbarian knows,we need not agree on every thing such as we are not gonna agree on that,lol.....but perhaps you'll understand why I believe as I do)

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Where have you been,I was thinking about you! I'm so glad to see you here.... Did you happen to notice my lil 2 cents about Hebrew idiom ( the language of that time as well)?

I've been here.  Wondering where you have been.  :)

11 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

And I certainly do agree about the Spiritual death but also the physical- my post explains.   Of course God's Word is Never wrong❤️

Roger that!

11 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

I'm happy to see you Brother

In His Love, Kwik

( And just like Barbarian knows,we need not agree on every thing such as we are not gonna agree on that,lol.....but perhaps you'll understand why I believe as I do)

I think we are on the same page here.  "on THAT day" Adam immediately died spiritually, and his body began the "death process" of aging.  I recently realized that it was the tree of life that sustained him physically.  After his rebellion, Adam and the woman were barred from the garden and the tree.  That's why he "grew old" and died.

Good seeing (reading) you too!

[kwikphilly]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I've been here.  Wondering where you have been.  

Roger that!

I think we are on the same page here.  "on THAT day" Adam immediately died spiritually, and his body began the "death process" of aging.  I recently realized that it was the tree of life that sustained him physically.  After his rebellion, Adam and the woman were barred from the garden and the tree.  That's why he "grew old" and died.

Good seeing (reading) you too!

Amen- yep,on the same page

Indeed,the Tree of Life was their sustenance,I do remember when that Light Came on for me as well ....we will be eating from ":those"trees ourselves-:Glory to God!

You said it all well,that's exactly what the Scriptures Say happened on that day,God's Word is Truth

God Bless you Brother ❤️