Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:40 AM, FJK said:

Was old age and death designed in to man, as he was perfect as God designed him in the Garden, or did the process of aging and death begin when he sinned and only occurred after the expulsion from the garden?    Could man have lived millions of years in eternal youth in the Garden, or would he still have grown old and died in a few short years there anyway?

Does the Scripture offer any insight into this?

Adam and Eve were created perfect in every way, as was the entire planet and universe. This is why God said it was VERY good. The process of aging and decay began the moment they ate the forbidden fruit ( what that was we are never told ), If they had never eaten the forbidden fruit and committed sin, YES they would have lived for millions and billions of years in the garden or elsewhere on earth. They would not ever have died, just as every person born since then would have been perfect and lived forever. HOWEVER, I believe the case can be made that God would NOT have created them at all if they would pass the test. God knew they would fail the test before he even created creation. The CROSS was in his mind before he even said "let there be light".

[HAZARD]

37 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Adam and Eve were created perfect in every way, as was the entire planet and universe. This is why God said it was VERY good. The process of aging and decay began the moment they ate the forbidden fruit ( what that was we are never told ), If they had never eaten the forbidden fruit and committed sin, YES they would have lived for millions and billions of years in the garden or elsewhere on earth. They would not ever have died, just as every person born since then would have been perfect and lived forever. HOWEVER, I believe the case can be made that God would NOT have created them at all if they would pass the test. God knew they would fail the test before he even created creation. The CROSS was in his mind before he even said "let there be light".

 

God knows His plan for man from beginning to end. God does not know what free moral agents will do until they make their choice, citing Abraham as a classic example.

God tested Abraham and when Abraham made his choice and obeyed God, God said, "NOW I KNOW."  God limits Himself in this area. If God knew Abraham would pass the test He put Abraham through, why go through all that trouble? God never said, Well I'm all knowing and knew all along that Abraham would pass the test, but I just felt like putting him and his son through this ordeal, just for the fun of it?

Free moral agency means just that. We are free to make our choices, and God allows this, and if we make the wrong choices then God holds us responsible for those choices. Why doesn't all knowing God stop people from sinning?

Because if He did that then there would be no free moral agency, and Heaven would be full of people who feel they were forced to obey. That's the reason Satan will be loosed a little while after the one thousand year rule of Jesus, the Millennium, to weed out any who are alive during the Millennium who may still rebel with Satan.

As soon as Satan is released from the bottomless pit, Satan will waste no time in doing what he does best. The Bible says that he will then go out to deceive the nations once again. He will be allowed to literally go to the four corners of the globe to get as many people as he possibly can to do his evil bidding once again.

The Bible says that he will be targeting all of the people who are wanting to rebel against God from the Millennium Kingdom. 

Rev. 20:7-10, “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

How many will Satan gather from those who went through the millennium?

"In number they are like the sand on the seashore."

Satan will go throughout the earth to deceive the nations who have not wanted the reign of Christ and who in their hearts have longed for an opportunities to get rid of God's laws and rigid suppression of their lusts (v.8; Eph. 2:1-3)

God did not create man to steal, rape, and murder. These are things which men freely chose to do and God cannot be held responsible for their free will choices. If God allowed people to be born, knowing before hand they would murder, rape, and steal, then on judgment day they could hold God responsible for them being born that way and destined to eternal hell for their deeds.

We are free moral agents, not robots pre designed to do good or bad.

 

Another example, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

If God knew their sin was so grievous, if God was all knowing, then why did He have to go down to see if what they had done was a bad as the outcry that had reached Him? Who told Him those in Sodom were comitting sodomy?

There was according to those who believe God knows everything and also what men will do before the do it, no need for Him to go down to Sodom to see what's going on down there.

God created Lucifer, PERFECT. Lucifer rebelled and is lost.

God later created Adam and Eve in His own image and likeness and thereby also perfect. Now this time God had to test both Adam and Eve to see if they would remain true to Him and obey, BEFORE ALLOWING THEM ACCESS TO THE TREE OF LIFE.

They failed and God blocked the way to the tree of life and provided for them and us His Son as our saviour.

God cannot sin. Adam and Eve, being created in His Image and Likeness were given free moral agency and the ability to obey or not, in other words although being perfect as God is, He also gave them free choice as He has free choice to do as He wills. Difference is Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and believe Satan who said "YOU WILL NOT SURELY DIE.

If we believe God knows what choices free moral agents will choose before they make their personal choices, then we are accusing God of creating sinners, starting with Perfect Adam, made in His own image and likeness, and as such, causing all the pain, suffering, murder, crime of all description, wars, starvation, pestilence and then causing God  to send His Son to be murdered by man so they can be forgiven, and its all His fault, NOT OURS?

To save all these thousands of years of pain and suffering for both us, Him, and His Son Jesus, God could have said, "Let us make man in our image and likeness, but we wont give man free moral agency like we have, because We know for sure they will turn out to be filthy rotten murdering sinners, and you, my Son will have to go down there and allow these murderers to torture and murder you so we can save them from the eternal death we said they would have to endure if they sinned?

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

10 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

God knows His plan for man from beginning to end. God does not know what free moral agents will do until they make their choice, citing Abraham as a classic example.

God tested Abraham and when Abraham made his choice and obeyed God, God said, "NOW I KNOW."  God limits Himself in this area. If God knew Abraham would pass the test He put Abraham through, why go through all that trouble? God never said, Well I'm all knowing and knew all along that Abraham would pass the test, but I just felt like putting him and his son through this ordeal, just for the fun of it?

Free moral agency means just that. We are free to make our choices, and God allows this, and if we make the wrong choices then God holds us responsible for those choices. Why doesn't all knowing God stop people from sinning?

Because if He did that then there would be no free moral agency, and Heaven would be full of people who feel they were forced to obey. That's the reason Satan will be loosed a little while after the one thousand year rule of Jesus, the Millennium, to weed out any who are alive during the Millennium who may still rebel with Satan.

As soon as Satan is released from the bottomless pit, Satan will waste no time in doing what he does best. The Bible says that he will then go out to deceive the nations once again. He will be allowed to literally go to the four corners of the globe to get as many people as he possibly can to do his evil bidding once again.

The Bible says that he will be targeting all of the people who are wanting to rebel against God from the Millennium Kingdom. 

Rev. 20:7-10, “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

How many will Satan gather from those who went through the millennium?

"In number they are like the sand on the seashore."

Satan will go throughout the earth to deceive the nations who have not wanted the reign of Christ and who in their hearts have longed for an opportunities to get rid of God's laws and rigid suppression of their lusts (v.8; Eph. 2:1-3)

God did not create man to steal, rape, and murder. These are things which men freely chose to do and God cannot be held responsible for their free will choices. If God allowed people to be born, knowing before hand they would murder, rape, and steal, then on judgment day they could hold God responsible for them being born that way and destined to eternal hell for their deeds.

We are free moral agents, not robots pre designed to do good or bad.

 

Another example, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

If God knew their sin was so grievous, if God was all knowing, then why did He have to go down to see if what they had done was a bad as the outcry that had reached Him? Who told Him those in Sodom were comitting sodomy?

There was according to those who believe God knows everything and also what men will do before the do it, no need for Him to go down to Sodom to see what's going on down there.

God created Lucifer, PERFECT. Lucifer rebelled and is lost.

God later created Adam and Eve in His own image and likeness and thereby also perfect. Now this time God had to test both Adam and Eve to see if they would remain true to Him and obey, BEFORE ALLOWING THEM ACCESS TO THE TREE OF LIFE.

They failed and God blocked the way to the tree of life and provided for them and us His Son as our saviour.

God cannot sin. Adam and Eve, being created in His Image and Likeness were given free moral agency and the ability to obey or not, in other words although being perfect as God is, He also gave them free choice as He has free choice to do as He wills. Difference is Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and believe Satan who said "YOU WILL NOT SURELY DIE.

If we believe God knows what choices free moral agents will choose before they make their personal choices, then we are accusing God of creating sinners, starting with Perfect Adam, made in His own image and likeness, and as such, causing all the pain, suffering, murder, crime of all description, wars, starvation, pestilence and then causing God  to send His Son to be murdered by man so they can be forgiven, and its all His fault, NOT OURS?

To save all these thousands of years of pain and suffering for both us, Him, and His Son Jesus, God could have said, "Let us make man in our image and likeness, but we wont give man free moral agency like we have, because We know for sure they will turn out to be filthy rotten murdering sinners, and you, my Son will have to go down there and allow these murderers to torture and murder you so we can save them from the eternal death we said they would have to endure if they sinned?

I can't adequately respond to your lengthy statement,  but I will say this. God DOES know EXACTLY how every single moment of all of history will unfold. He DOES know every single choice, thought, and word that we will utter before we are even born. If he didn't,  then he WOULDN'T be omniscient or omnipotent. Our free will does NOT conflict with his knowledge of what we will do.  I can expand on this later if you wish. 

[Retrobyter]

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

But, where does "theology" come from?  The word means the study of God.  So the Bible is the source.  

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Sorry this is so late coming. Again, I lost a whole day's work because the webpage was reloaded and all I got was an old post I had written instead of the one I was currently working on.

Ideally, theology should come from the Bible. HOWEVER, most theology actually comes from the imagination of human beings STARTING from some Bible verse or phrase. This was ESPECIALLY true during the Dark Ages! And, Christianity has carried that burden of theology ever since!

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

I presented facts of what Scripture does say about spiritual death, and regeneration, made alive, quickened, and born again.  Those are biblical words.  Do you believe they aren't relevant to God's warning to Adam about eating the forbidden fruit??  

Do you believe that Adam was "born again?" Just asking how you think Adam figures into this rhetoric.

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

So, what "death" occurred "on THAT day"?  If not 2, then only one would have occurred.  Since we know that Adam didn't fall over "on that day", it would have to be spiritual only.  So, what is your explanation for the fact that Adam did die physically later on?

He DID die physically! Before he sinned, Adam didn't have a single cell in his body that was dying. All were vibrant and alive! However, that very day that he disobeyed God's command, his cells began to die. Fortunately the growth rate of cell mitosis at least balanced out the death rate of the cells, but eventually, the death rate surpassed the growth rate, and overall, the man Adam began to physically die.

Death is a PROCESS, not an instantaneous event! When all the various organs and systems in the body cease to function, THEN the person is pronounced "dead!"

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

However, none of this is relevant to God's warning to Adam about eating the forbidden fruit.  Yes, all mammals and all humans physically die and their breath goes out, but this isn't the discussion.  It's about God's warning to Adam.

God warned Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit of all of the other trees he could eat without consequence. In being warned about the ONE tree, he had to know where it was, "in the midst (middle) of the garden." You should know, too, that when he disobeyed God, it also opened the door for infections, diseases, and sickness! This was 930 years of PAIN and SUFFERING, sporadically, of course, but still present! Think about what Moses told the children of Israel if THEY disobeyed God:

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 (KJV)

15 "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16 "Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

17 "Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19 "Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

20 "The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. 22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

25 "The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

27 "The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. 28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: 29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee. 30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof. 31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them. 32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand. 33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: 34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. 36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. 37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

38 "Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it. 39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit. 41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity. 42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. 43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. 44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

45 "Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: 46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

47 "Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things; 48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49 "The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: 51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, 57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

58 "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; 59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. 60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. 63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. 64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. 65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: 66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: 67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you."

Do you think that God was less harsh on Adam, the FIRST man to disobey Him?!

 

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

Amen there!!

Can you explain how God created man "in THEIR image" apart from trichotomy?  Trichotomy does a fine job of it.  How do you explain it?

"Trichotomy" means "to cut into three parts." Why is it necessary to cut a person into three parts?

I explain it quite simply: "spirit" = "breath"; "soul" = "a breathing creature"; and "body" is what is left after the "breath" leaves the "breathing creature."

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

I take Heb 4:12 literally, and therefore, believers have a soul AND a spirit, which is discerned by God's Word.  And 1 Thess 5:21 plainly tells us about "the body, soul and spirit".  Kinda hard to avoid, imho.

I take them literally, as well! Hebrews 4:12 actually says,

ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ, καὶ ἐνεργής, καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον, καὶ διϊκνούμενος ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς τὲ καὶ πνεύματος, ἁρμῶν τε καὶ μυελῶν, καὶ κριτικὸς ἐνθυμήσεων καὶ ἐννοιῶν καρδίας.

Transliterated,

12 Zoon gar ho logos tou Theou, kai energees, kai tomooteros huper pasan machairan distomon, kai diiknoumenos achri merismou psuchees te kai pneumatos, harmoon te kai mueloon, kai kritikos enthumeeseoon kai ennoioon kardias.

Translated word-for-word,

12 Living-[is] for the word of-the God, and energized, and sharper above every sword two-edged, even penetrating as-far-as a-division of-a-breathing-creature and also a-breath, of-joints and also of-marrow, and critiquing reflections and intentions of-a heart.

He was saying that the Word of God and divide a breathing creature from his breath!

I think you mean 1 Thessalonians 5:23. (You can correct me if I'm wrong.)

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Greek of this verse is ...

23 Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ Θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης ἁγιάσαι ὑμᾶς ὁλοτελεῖς· καὶ ὁλόκληρον ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τηρηθείη.

Transliterated, ...

23 Autos de ho Theos tees eireenees hagiasai humas holoteleis; kai holokleeron humoon to pneuma kai hee psuchee kai to sooma amemptoos en tee parousia tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou teereethein.

Translated word-for-word, ...

23 Himself but the God of-the peace may-sanctify you-(plural) completely; and preserve of-you-(plural) the breath and the breathing-creature and the body blamelessly by the Arrival of-the Lord of-us-(plural) Yeeshuwa`/Jesus Messiah/Christ may-be-preserved.

He's praying for the God of peace Himself to sanctify them completely, and preserve their breath (their words) and their breathing-creatures (their lives) and that their bodies might be preserved blamelessly by the Arrival of our Lord, Yeeshuwa, the Messiah! It's not "three parts"; it's "three ASPECTS!" What they say, what they do, and how they are remembered after they die!

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

So, "spirit" is a thought??   Hm.  Jesus told the woman at the well that we must worship God "in spirit and in truth".  What did He mean?

No, "spirit" is "WIND," by analogy, "BREATH!" However, words are conveyed on a person's breath, and the thoughts of that person are revealed in those words!

I can't tell this account of the woman at the well without getting the WHOLE account!

(This is when I lost my post the last time. I "waxed eloquently," as they used to say, and I'm going to do it again. It's just that good!)

John 4:1-30 (KJV)

1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. 4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

(The only time someone "needed to go through Shomrown or Samaria" was to avoid the main roads, or to cut one's travel time, for it was a "straighter shot" to head due north, rather than go east to the Jordan River valley, north along the Jordan River, and then west back to the Galiyl.)

5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar (or Shechem), near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there.  (It's about 1/2 hour [33 minutes] walking distance east from Shechem.) Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour (noon). 

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her,

"Give me to drink."

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him,

"How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria?

for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 

(Shomrowniym or Samaritans were "half-breeds" and "impure" by Jewish standards.) The Samaritans (still extant today) claim (according to Wikipedia),

"Samaritan tradition claims the group descends from the northern Israelite tribes who were not deported by the Neo-Assyrian Empire after the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel. They consider Samaritanism to be the true religion of the ancient Israelites and regard Judaism as a closely related but altered religion. Samaritans also regard Mount Gerizim (near both Nablus and biblical Shechem), and not the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to be the holiest place on Earth. They attribute the schism between Samaritanism and Judaism to have been caused by Eli creating an alternate shrine at Shiloh, in opposition to Mount Gerizim."

The Jews claim,

"Jewish tradition affirms the Assyrian deportations and replacement of the previous inhabitants by forced resettlement by other peoples but claims a different ethnic origin for the Samaritans. The Talmud accounts for a people called "Cuthim" on a number of occasions, mentioning their arrival by the hands of the Assyrians. According to 2 Kings 17:6, 24 and Josephus, the people of Israel were removed by the king of the Assyrians (Sargon II) to Halah, to Gozan on the Khabur River and to the towns of the Medes. The king of the Assyrians then brought people from Babylon, Kutha, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim to place in Samaria. Because God sent lions among them to kill them, the king of the Assyrians sent one of the priests from Bethel to teach the new settlers about God's ordinances. The eventual result was that the new settlers worshipped both the God of the land and their own gods from the countries from which they came."

It's probably a mixture of both. Continuing on...

10 Jesus answered and said unto her,

"If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, 'Give me to drink'; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living (flowing) water."

11 The woman saith unto him,

"Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living (flowing) water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?" 

13 Jesus answered and said unto her,

"Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up (a spring) into everlasting life."

15 The woman saith unto him,

"Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw."

16 Jesus saith unto her,  

"Go, call thy husband, and come hither."

17 The woman answered and said,

"I have no husband."

Jesus said unto her,

"Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."

19 The woman saith unto him,

"Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet! 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

21 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

25 The woman saith unto him,

"I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."

26 Jesus saith unto her,

"I that speak unto thee am he."

27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, "What seekest thou?" or, "Why talkest thou with her?"

28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 

29 "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?"

30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

Later, we read,

John 4:39-42 (KJV)

39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified,

"He told me all that ever I did!"

40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there TWO DAYS. (So, He wasn't in a hurry to get to the Galiyl.) 41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman,

"Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world!"

Now, looking back at verses 22 through 24, 

Yeeshuwa` said, "21 Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain (Mount Gerizim), nor yet at Jerusalem (the Temple on Mount Moriah), worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation (deliverance) is of (from) the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers (those who truly "bend the knee" to God) shall worship (bend the knee to) the Father in spirit (wind/breath/words/attitude) and in truth (without pretense): for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit (Wind/Breath/Voice): and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (wind/breath/words/attitude) and in truth (without pretense)."

See, our "wind" is our breath, and our words are formed by our breath, and the words we speak reveal our attitude - our thoughts - our heart! It wasn't to be found in WHERE a person worshipped God! One can humbly obey YHWH God ANYWHERE!

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

But Adam DIDN'T die "on that day" physically.  That occurred about 930 years later.

Of course, what no one knows is how long Adam lived in the Garden BEFORE he sinned.  Could have been as soon as he finished all his work that God assigned him and gave him a woman, or a thousand years.  We simply have no idea.  So I take the 930 years as from when he sinned and age became an issue.

Well, first I already addressed the first two sentences. Adam DID die on that day! Before, he sinned and was cursed, he had NO death in him! After he sinned and was cursed, his cells were dying and needing to be replaced by re-growth through mitosis!

Regarding the rest, a person's age isn't determined by circumstances. From the time that Adam was created to the time he died was 930 years. The Scriptures say ...

Genesis 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

On 3/13/2023 at 10:25 AM, FreeGrace said:

Paul also wrote 1 Thess 5:21, mentioning the believer's trichotomy of body, soul and spirit.  I just can't ignore that verse nor Heb 4:12.

Again, I've already dealt with 1 Thess. 5:23 and Heb. 4:12.

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Ideally, theology should come from the Bible. HOWEVER, most theology actually comes from the imagination of human beings STARTING from some Bible verse or phrase. This was ESPECIALLY true during the Dark Ages! And, Christianity has carried that burden of theology ever since!

Since I take Acts 17:11 very seriously as to how to verify what others teach, I know that I believe can be easily verified by what the Bible says.  Of course people will have different views on what words mean.  

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Do you believe that Adam was "born again?" Just asking how you think Adam figures into this rhetoric.

He wasn't in need of being born again until he sinned and his human nature died "on THAT day".  Gen 2:17

I find nothing in the OT that would refute the idea that all men need to be born again. In fact, the famous passage in Isa 36 describes the process of being born again.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

He DID die physically! Before he sinned, Adam didn't have a single cell in his body that was dying. All were vibrant and alive! However, that very day that he disobeyed God's command, his cells began to die. Fortunately the growth rate of cell mitosis at least balanced out the death rate of the cells, but eventually, the death rate surpassed the growth rate, and overall, the man Adam began to physically die.

You're basically agreeing with my understanding of "dying".  Yes, that is the aging process that ultimately results in physical death.  But that doesn't fulfill the "on THAT day you shall die.  He didn't physically die on that day, so the phrase must refer to something other than physical death.  The only other something I can think of would be spiritual death, or specifically, the death of the human spirit.  I have found nothing to refute that.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Death is a PROCESS, not an instantaneous event! When all the various organs and systems in the body cease to function, THEN the person is pronounced "dead!"

Exactly!  But, on THAT day, Adam did DIE.  Completely die.  Fully dead.  What makes sense is his human spirit.  That explains why he hid from the Lord when He came calling.  He had no capacity for worship (John 4:24).

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

God warned Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit of all of the other trees he could eat without consequence. In being warned about the ONE tree, he had to know where it was, "in the midst (middle) of the garden." You should know, too, that when he disobeyed God, it also opened the door for infections, diseases, and sickness! This was 930 years of PAIN and SUFFERING, sporadically, of course, but still present!

Right!  That would refer to the "dying".  But not the "death" on THAT day.  I am firmly convinced that Adam experienced an immediate death on THAT day, and the beginning of the process of physical death on THAT day.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Think about what Moses told the children of Israel if THEY disobeyed God:

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 (KJV)

15 "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16 "Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

17 "Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

18 "Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19 "Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

20 "The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. 22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

25 "The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

27 "The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. 28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart: 29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee. 30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof. 31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them. 32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand. 33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: 34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. 36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. 37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

38 "Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it. 39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit. 41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity. 42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. 43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. 44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

45 "Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: 46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

47 "Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things; 48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

49 "The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: 51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, 57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

58 "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; 59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. 60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. 63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. 64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. 65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: 66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: 67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. 68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you."

All of this is divine discipline for disobedience.  Heb 12

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Do you think that God was less harsh on Adam, the FIRST man to disobey Him?!

Nope.  God is impartial. 

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

"Trichotomy" means "to cut into three parts." Why is it necessary to cut a person into three parts?

I didn't use that word.  I said "trichotomous".  I wasn't thinking of slicing up anyone.

That means 3 parts, just as tripartite does.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

I explain it quite simply: "spirit" = "breath"; "soul" = "a breathing creature"; and "body" is what is left after the "breath" leaves the "breathing creature."

I take them literally, as well! Hebrews 4:12 actually says,

ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ, καὶ ἐνεργής, καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον, καὶ διϊκνούμενος ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς τὲ καὶ πνεύματος, ἁρμῶν τε καὶ μυελῶν, καὶ κριτικὸς ἐνθυμήσεων καὶ ἐννοιῶν καρδίας.

Transliterated,

12 Zoon gar ho logos tou Theou, kai energees, kai tomooteros huper pasan machairan distomon, kai diiknoumenos achri merismou psuchees te kai pneumatos, harmoon te kai mueloon, kai kritikos enthumeeseoon kai ennoioon kardias.

Translated word-for-word,

12 Living-[is] for the word of-the God, and energized, and sharper above every sword two-edged, even penetrating as-far-as a-division of-a-breathing-creature and also a-breath, of-joints and also of-marrow, and critiquing reflections and intentions of-a heart.

He was saying that the Word of God and divide a breathing creature from his breath!

The English translations seem clear enough.  Separating soul and spirit.  And the writer compares that with "bones and marrow".  Many take the simplistic road and merely note there is the immaterial and material.  What they conveniently forget is that "bone and marrow" is totally RELATED.  I have a doctorate in the physical medicine sciences.  So, the comparision shows that soul and spirit are RELATED just as bone and marrow are related.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

I think you mean 1 Thessalonians 5:23. (You can correct me if I'm wrong.)

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the correction.  

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

The Greek of this verse is ...

23 Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ Θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης ἁγιάσαι ὑμᾶς ὁλοτελεῖς· καὶ ὁλόκληρον ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τηρηθείη.

Transliterated, ...

23 Autos de ho Theos tees eireenees hagiasai humas holoteleis; kai holokleeron humoon to pneuma kai hee psuchee kai to sooma amemptoos en tee parousia tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou teereethein.

Translated word-for-word, ...

23 Himself but the God of-the peace may-sanctify you-(plural) completely; and preserve of-you-(plural) the breath and the breathing-creature and the body blamelessly by the Arrival of-the Lord of-us-(plural) Yeeshuwa`/Jesus Messiah/Christ may-be-preserved.

He's praying for the God of peace Himself to sanctify them completely, and preserve their breath (their words) and their breathing-creatures (their lives) and that their bodies might be preserved blamelessly by the Arrival of our Lord, Yeeshuwa, the Messiah! It's not "three parts"; it's "three ASPECTS!" What they say, what they do, and how they are remembered after they die!

I see a clear differentiation between soul and spirit.  And I see a trichotomous union.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

No, "spirit" is "WIND," by analogy, "BREATH!" However, words are conveyed on a person's breath, and the thoughts of that person are revealed in those words!

I can't tell this account of the woman at the well without getting the WHOLE account!

(This is when I lost my post the last time. I "waxed eloquently," as they used to say, and I'm going to do it again. It's just that good!)

Bummer.  Been there, done that as well.  Grrrr.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

John 4:1-30 (KJV)

1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. 4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

(The only time someone "needed to go through Shomrown or Samaria" was to avoid the main roads, or to cut one's travel time, for it was a "straighter shot" to head due north, rather than go east to the Jordan River valley, north along the Jordan River, and then west back to the Galiyl.)

5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar (or Shechem), near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there.  (It's about 1/2 hour [33 minutes] walking distance east from Shechem.) Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour (noon). 

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her,

"Give me to drink."

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him,

"How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria?

for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 

(Shomrowniym or Samaritans were "half-breeds" and "impure" by Jewish standards.) The Samaritans (still extant today) claim (according to Wikipedia),

"Samaritan tradition claims the group descends from the northern Israelite tribes who were not deported by the Neo-Assyrian Empire after the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel. They consider Samaritanism to be the true religion of the ancient Israelites and regard Judaism as a closely related but altered religion. Samaritans also regard Mount Gerizim (near both Nablus and biblical Shechem), and not the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to be the holiest place on Earth. They attribute the schism between Samaritanism and Judaism to have been caused by Eli creating an alternate shrine at Shiloh, in opposition to Mount Gerizim."

The Jews claim,

"Jewish tradition affirms the Assyrian deportations and replacement of the previous inhabitants by forced resettlement by other peoples but claims a different ethnic origin for the Samaritans. The Talmud accounts for a people called "Cuthim" on a number of occasions, mentioning their arrival by the hands of the Assyrians. According to 2 Kings 17:6, 24 and Josephus, the people of Israel were removed by the king of the Assyrians (Sargon II) to Halah, to Gozan on the Khabur River and to the towns of the Medes. The king of the Assyrians then brought people from Babylon, Kutha, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim to place in Samaria. Because God sent lions among them to kill them, the king of the Assyrians sent one of the priests from Bethel to teach the new settlers about God's ordinances. The eventual result was that the new settlers worshipped both the God of the land and their own gods from the countries from which they came."

It's probably a mixture of both. Continuing on...

10 Jesus answered and said unto her,

"If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, 'Give me to drink'; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living (flowing) water."

11 The woman saith unto him,

"Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living (flowing) water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?" 

13 Jesus answered and said unto her,

"Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up (a spring) into everlasting life."

15 The woman saith unto him,

"Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw."

16 Jesus saith unto her,  

"Go, call thy husband, and come hither."

17 The woman answered and said,

"I have no husband."

Jesus said unto her,

"Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."

19 The woman saith unto him,

"Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet! 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

21 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

25 The woman saith unto him,

"I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."

26 Jesus saith unto her,

"I that speak unto thee am he."

27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, "What seekest thou?" or, "Why talkest thou with her?"

28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 

29 "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?"

30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

Later, we read,

John 4:39-42 (KJV)

39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified,

"He told me all that ever I did!"

40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there TWO DAYS. (So, He wasn't in a hurry to get to the Galiyl.) 41 And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman,

"Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world!"

Now, looking back at verses 22 through 24, 

Yeeshuwa` said, "21 Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain (Mount Gerizim), nor yet at Jerusalem (the Temple on Mount Moriah), worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation (deliverance) is of (from) the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers (those who truly "bend the knee" to God) shall worship (bend the knee to) the Father in spirit (wind/breath/words/attitude) and in truth (without pretense): for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit (Wind/Breath/Voice): and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (wind/breath/words/attitude) and in truth (without pretense)."

See, our "wind" is our breath, and our words are formed by our breath, and the words we speak reveal our attitude - our thoughts - our heart! It wasn't to be found in WHERE a person worshipped God! One can humbly obey YHWH God ANYWHERE!

I know that there is some overlap between soul and spirit.  But Heb 4:12 is quite clear that they can be "divided".  And how would you explain the NEED to be born AGAIN, or regenerated, or "made alive" or 'quickened' apart from action toward a DEAD human spirit?   I don't see how.  It's all too logical to avoid.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, first I already addressed the first two sentences. Adam DID die on that day! Before, he sinned and was cursed, he had NO death in him! After he sinned and was cursed, his cells were dying and needing to be replaced by re-growth through mitosis!

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  There were 2 deaths, on THAT day.  The spiritual death (of the human spirit) was immediate and the physical death process began on THAT day, culminating 930 years later in physical death.

I don't see any controversy in this.

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Regarding the rest, a person's age isn't determined by circumstances. From the time that Adam was created to the time he died was 930 years. The Scriptures say ...

Genesis 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Again, I've already dealt with 1 Thess. 5:23 and Heb. 4:12.

I'm not convinced WHEN the clock started counting.  We simply don't know how long it took Adam to name all the animals, etc and categorize them.  .  We do know how long people after him lived (into the 900's).  So I think the clock started when he sinned and his body began to die.  That is not unreasonable.  

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

God knows His plan for man from beginning to end. God does not know what free moral agents will do until they make their choice, citing Abraham as a classic example.

Shalom, HAZARD.

This is tricky to understand, but you're right that God knows His plan for man from beginning to end.

However, it's more than that. The Scripture says,

Isaiah 46:1-13 (KJV)

1 "Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast. 2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.

3 "Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb: 4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

6 "They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.

8 "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure': 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it!

12 "Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory."

YHWH God not only KNOWS the end from the beginning; He has DECLARED the end from the beginning! This all has to do with His Plan! 

He wants us to do His Will, and so, He reveals His Will to us. His Will is for us to do righteousness!

His PLAN, however, He does NOT reveal except to give glimpses through prophecy!

See, we see the choices that are available to us throughtout the time of our lives like the branches of a tree. History takes the path that GOD knows it will take. He knows the choices we will make and all choices are within His plan.

Fiction writers and movie makers have lately capitalized on such a theory as a multiverse, in which every universe within the multiverse is based upon a different set of choices made. But, this whole concept is based upon multiple, possible choices. And, it is all FICTION! The IMAGINATION of human beings!

The truth is that God knows the ONE PATH that all the composite choices will make throughout time, because He already DECLARED it.

There's a slogan I've heard since I was a child that says, "Has it ever occurred to you that NOTHING has occurred to God?"

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

God tested Abraham and when Abraham made his choice and obeyed God, God said, "NOW I KNOW."  God limits Himself in this area. If God knew Abraham would pass the test He put Abraham through, why go through all that trouble? God never said, Well I'm all knowing and knew all along that Abraham would pass the test, but I just felt like putting him and his son through this ordeal, just for the fun of it?

Well, this would be the account of Avraham and his son Yitschaq in ...

Genesis 22:1-14 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt (test) Abraham, and said unto him,

"Abraham":

and he said,

"Behold, here I am."

2 And he said,

"Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. 5 And Abraham said unto his young men,

"Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said,

"My father":

and he said,

"Here am I, my son."

And he said,

"Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

8 And Abraham said,

"My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering":

so they went both of them together. 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said,

"Abraham, Abraham!":

and he said,

"Here am I."

12 And he said,

"Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place "Jehovah-jireh": as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen."

The one who said verse 12 was called "the angel of the LORD," not the LORD Himself, and spoke of God in the third Person.

All the same, God doesn't count a thing as accomplished until the human that shall perform it actually accomplishes the thing.

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Free moral agency means just that. We are free to make our choices, and God allows this, and if we make the wrong choices then God holds us responsible for those choices. Why doesn't all knowing God stop people from sinning?

God allows free moral agency because of what I just said. God doesn't count a thing as accomplished until the human that shall perform it actually accomplishes the thing.

All the same, God still knows completely all that will be decided and no one is going to take Him by surprise!

Another thought that has stuck with me is the concept of "secret predestination." The story was that "salvation" or actually, justification by God was like a person walking through a doorway. Above the doorway is written, "Whosoever will may come." Once THROUGH the doorway, the person can look back and see above the doorway, "Predestined before the foundation of the world." No one is given the information of who will be and who will not be justified by God. That's GOD'S business, and not ours!

So, from our perspective, God is letting us make the choice, and the choice is not recorded in the books until we've made it.

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Because if He did that then there would be no free moral agency, and Heaven would be full of people who feel they were forced to obey. That's the reason Satan will be loosed a little while after the one thousand year rule of Jesus, the Millennium, to weed out any who are alive during the Millennium who may still rebel with Satan.

As soon as Satan is released from the bottomless pit, Satan will waste no time in doing what he does best. The Bible says that he will then go out to deceive the nations once again. He will be allowed to literally go to the four corners of the globe to get as many people as he possibly can to do his evil bidding once again.

The Bible says that he will be targeting all of the people who are wanting to rebel against God from the Millennium Kingdom. 

Rev. 20:7-10, “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

How many will Satan gather from those who went through the millennium?

"In number they are like the sand on the seashore."

Satan will go throughout the earth to deceive the nations who have not wanted the reign of Christ and who in their hearts have longed for an opportunities to get rid of God's laws and rigid suppression of their lusts (v.8; Eph. 2:1-3)

God did not create man to steal, rape, and murder. These are things which men freely chose to do and God cannot be held responsible for their free will choices. If God allowed people to be born, knowing before hand they would murder, rape, and steal, then on judgment day they could hold God responsible for them being born that way and destined to eternal hell for their deeds.

We are free moral agents, not robots pre designed to do good or bad.

Well, they may THINK they could hold God responsible, but ultimately it was THEIR choice to do evil! God just gives them enough rope to hang themselves!

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Another example, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

If God knew their sin was so grievous, if God was all knowing, then why did He have to go down to see if what they had done was a bad as the outcry that had reached Him? Who told Him those in Sodom were comitting sodomy?

There was according to those who believe God knows everything and also what men will do before they do it, no need for Him to go down to Sodom to see what's going on down there.

God created Lucifer, PERFECT. Lucifer rebelled and is lost.

God later created Adam and Eve in His own image and likeness and thereby also perfect. Now this time God had to test both Adam and Eve to see if they would remain true to Him and obey, BEFORE ALLOWING THEM ACCESS TO THE TREE OF LIFE.

They failed and God blocked the way to the tree of life and provided for them and us His Son as our saviour.

God cannot sin. Adam and Eve, being created in His Image and Likeness were given free moral agency and the ability to obey or not, in other words although being perfect as God is, He also gave them free choice as He has free choice to do as He wills. Difference is Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and believe Satan who said "YOU WILL NOT SURELY DIE.

If we believe God knows what choices free moral agents will choose before they make their personal choices, then we are accusing God of creating sinners, starting with Perfect Adam, made in His own image and likeness, and as such, causing all the pain, suffering, murder, crime of all description, wars, starvation, pestilence and then causing God  to send His Son to be murdered by man so they can be forgiven, and its all His fault, NOT OURS?

To save all these thousands of years of pain and suffering for both us, Him, and His Son Jesus, God could have said, "Let us make man in our image and likeness, but we wont give man free moral agency like we have, because We know for sure they will turn out to be filthy rotten murdering sinners, and you, my Son will have to go down there and allow these murderers to torture and murder you so we can save them from the eternal death we said they would have to endure if they sinned?

No, if God stepped in to stop the sin in human beings, then He would not be able to determine the love that each person had for God. They would basically be automatons, and they could, in some sense, be justified in their accusations against God. HOWEVER, even when God DECLARES the end from the beginning, that doesn't mean that He causes the sin along the way! That's STILL on the sinner, and he or she is accountable to God and will be held so accountable!

God shows His love to people by spending time with them! When God is involved in a person's life, whether He is showing favor or discipline, He shows His love for him or her by being personally involved in his or her life.

God shows His hatred as He did to Esav ("Esau") when He left him to his own devices and destiny! However, Esav was not interested in his God-given birthright, nor did he value His blessing! So, God didn't value Esav!

All the evils that are in the world are ACCUMULATIVE! They pile up on the evils before them to produce the mess we have today in this world.

[The Barbarian]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:30 PM, Tristen said:

Actually, under the Christian paradigm, science advanced quite a bit prior to the Protestant Reformation. This progress was simply amplified by the Industrial Revolution (another notable historical period stemming from the Reformation).

The trigger for the industrial revolution was laissez-faire captialism, a rejection of Christian mercantilism.    The mercantile notions of a "just price" and a "fair wage" were abandoned and the free market was assumed to provide the best outcome for society.    

The failure of laissez-faire capitalism to provide adequate lives for most people was the ultimate source of socialism and eventually to the mixed economy that has been most successful in providing a decent life for the most people.

On 3/7/2023 at 7:30 PM, Tristen said:

So yes – some of the representative ancestors on the Ark could have subsequently produced a Class, or Order, or “Family”, or “Genus” of descendants (according to the Linnaean system).

Evoluton of a new class would take many millions of years.   Even with Woodmorappe's hyperevolution, there's just not enough time.   Moreover, new species would be popping up monthly; seems unlikely, given that no one thought this was remarkable enough to mention it.

And given that every class and order of tetrapods (what we normally call "animals") today is found in the fossil record, that just won't work.   It's noteworthy that AIG admits the evolution of new species and genera, maybe families.   Which is a slightly more defensive position for post-flood evolution.   Still, since all the families and most of the genera of exist "cat kind" is found in the fossil record, that won't fit the evidence, either.

On 3/7/2023 at 7:30 PM, Tristen said:

“By the way, you are right that Linnaeas was describing morphology not relatedness. Evolutionary biology is merely one possible explanation for this nested morphological similarity.”

Agreed.

It's an interesting thing.  Linnaeus had no explanation for this.   He was puzzled why such a family tree only existed for living things and not (for example) minerals.  Today we know why.  Such trees only exist for common descent, something confirmed by DNA analyses confirming the family tree of Linnaeus (who was reluctant to admit such a thing).

On 3/7/2023 at 7:30 PM, Tristen said:

Some “Dinosaurs” were likely represented on the Ark – but have since gone extinct.

Birds, for example, were said to be on the Ark.   Other dinosaurs probably not, given that the others were extinct long before humans arrived.

On 3/7/2023 at 7:30 PM, Tristen said:

I’d also encourage you to find examples of actual “predictions” supporting the secular model (as in – a prediction that is in the literature before the fact was found).

As the YE creationist Kurt Wise points out, the fossil record contains a huge number of fossils confirming Darwin's predictions, all found after his book was published.   The number of predicted transitional forms found in my lifetime is huge.

Reptile to mammal

Fish to tetrapod

Land ungulate to whale

Base anapsid to turtles

Wasps to ants

Salamanders to frogs

Hominoids to humans

(long list)

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since I take Acts 17:11 very seriously as to how to verify what others teach, I know that I believe can be easily verified by what the Bible says.  Of course people will have different views on what words mean.

Shalom, FreeGrace.

Don't think for one moment that I don't operate by Acts 17:11! 

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

He wasn't in need of being born again until he sinned and his human nature died "on THAT day".  Gen 2:17

I find nothing in the OT that would refute the idea that all men need to be born again. In fact, the famous passage in Isa 36 describes the process of being born again.

Okay, good.

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You're basically agreeing with my understanding of "dying".  Yes, that is the aging process that ultimately results in physical death.  But that doesn't fulfill the "on THAT day you shall die.  He didn't physically die on that day, so the phrase must refer to something other than physical death.  The only other something I can think of would be spiritual death, or specifically, the death of the human spirit.  I have found nothing to refute that.

There's no such thing as a "spiritual death," because there's no such thing as "spiritual" in that sense! A person's "spirit" is his or her "BREATH!" It's no more personal than that! There's no such thing as an "immaterial part" called a "spirit," and one's "breath" after breathing his or her last doesn't go anywhere than back into the atmosphere! That's how it "returns to God who gave it!"

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Exactly!  But, on THAT day, Adam did DIE.  Completely die.  Fully dead.  What makes sense is his human spirit.  That explains why he hid from the Lord when He came calling.  He had no capacity for worship (John 4:24).

Anybody can ... and WILL ... worship! "To worship" means "to bend the knee to!" 

There is NO such thing as a "human spirit!" That's the garbage that was introduced by people like Origen, Augustine, Alexander of Alexandria, and Tertullian! It comes from too much time studying Greek philosophers, like Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle!

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Right!  That would refer to the "dying".  But not the "death" on THAT day.  I am firmly convinced that Adam experienced an immediate death on THAT day, and the beginning of the process of physical death on THAT day.

All of this is divine discipline for disobedience.  Heb 12

Nope.  God is impartial. 

I didn't use that word.  I said "trichotomous".  I wasn't thinking of slicing up anyone.

That means 3 parts, just as tripartite does.

The English translations seem clear enough.  Separating soul and spirit.  And the writer compares that with "bones and marrow".  

Technically, "bones" isn't in that verse. It's "JOINTS and marrow."

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Many take the simplistic road and merely note there is the immaterial and material.  What they conveniently forget is that "bone and marrow" is totally RELATED.  I have a doctorate in the physical medicine sciences.  So, the comparision shows that soul and spirit are RELATED just as bone and marrow are related.

Thanks for the correction.  

I see a clear differentiation between soul and spirit.  And I see a trichotomous union.

Bummer.  Been there, done that as well.  Grrrr.

I know that there is some overlap between soul and spirit.  But Heb 4:12 is quite clear that they can be "divided".  And how would you explain the NEED to be born AGAIN, or regenerated, or "made alive" or 'quickened' apart from action toward a DEAD human spirit?   I don't see how.  It's all too logical to avoid.

First, you're welcome. I do it all the time.

Second, 

I'm going to make this VERY simple:

The Hebrew word that was TRANSLATED "soul" is the word "nefesh" (often written "nephesh"):

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of(abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. 

This word is a noun. Therefore, it has cases, person, gender, and number. It can also have a plural form as well as a dual form in Hebrew in addition to the singular. It stems from the root form which is a verb:

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

A "soul" is a "breathing creature" ("creature" meaning a "created being"). And, it comes from the word meaning "to breathe!" (I like to add the word "air" because what else does a "breathing creature" breathe but air?)

So, naafash means "to breathe (air)," and "nefesh" means an "(air)-breathing creature." That's what the word "soul" means!

The Hebrew word TRANSLATED as "spirit" is the word "ruwach" (sometimes written as "ruach"):

7307 ruwach רוּחַ (roo'-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

This word is also a noun. It stems from the verb form, which is also considered the root word of this family of words:

7306 ruwach  רוּחַ (roo-akh'). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

It's spelled the same as the above, but it is pronounced differently, and it is a verb, having tense, mood, and may form other parts of speech. In Hebrew, verbs also have gender and number.

Look it up for yourself! These entries are from the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary in the back of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance written for the King James Version.

And, these words were translated into Greek:

Hebrew: nefesh (nephesh) (noun) = Greek: psuchee (noun) = air-breathing creature
Hebrew: naafash (naphash) (verb) = Greek: psuchoo (verb) = to breathe
Hebrew: ruwach (noun) = Greek: pneuma (noun) = wind/breath
Hebrew: ruwach (verb) = Greek: pneoo (verb) = to blow

So,

A body + the breath (spirit) = an air-breathing creature (soul).

It's really that simple. Drop the words "this means ..." as though to re-define these terms. Anything added to these comes from theological philosophy, conjecture, opinions, and fantasy. If they were taught to you, then they could also come from doctrines, dogma, or catechisms of a particular branch of churches, which are STILL all of the above, just deferred to previous thinkers and teachers!

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  There were 2 deaths, on THAT day.  The spiritual death (of the human spirit) was immediate and the physical death process began on THAT day, culminating 930 years later in physical death.

I don't see any controversy in this.

I'm not convinced WHEN the clock started counting.  We simply don't know how long it took Adam to name all the animals, etc and categorize them.  .  We do know how long people after him lived (into the 900's).  So I think the clock started when he sinned and his body began to die.  That is not unreasonable.  

That's fine, but I think you should, at the very least, consider these facts when reading Scriptures that contain these words.

It's reasonable, but it's not Scriptural. "All the days of his life" = from the first day of his life to the last day of his life.

[FreeGrace]

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

There's no such thing as a "spiritual death," because there's no such thing as "spiritual" in that sense! A person's "spirit" is his or her "BREATH!" It's no more personal than that! There's no such thing as an "immaterial part" called a "spirit," and one's "breath" after breathing his or her last doesn't go anywhere than back into the atmosphere! That's how it "returns to God who gave it!"

Why would Jesus tell the woman at the well that one must worship God "in spirit and in truth" then?  I am beyond convinced that "on THAT day" Adam's human spirit DIED and he lost ability to fellowship or worship God.  So he hid when the Lord came calling.  That is the evidence.  And God solved the problem by the gospel message by which Adam would be "born again" and have his human spirit "made alive, quickened, born again, regenerated".  All these words refer to the human spirit.

Or, explain what else they mean if not related to the human spirit.

It seems to me that you don't believe that Adam being created "in the IMAGE of God" means body, soul and human spirit.  Well, I do and you know the 2 verses that clearly differentiate between the 2.

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Anybody can ... and WILL ... worship! "To worship" means "to bend the knee to!"

Jesus said otherwise.  John 4:24  iow, one MUST have a human spirit to worship.

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

There is NO such thing as a "human spirit!" That's the garbage that was introduced by people like Origen, Augustine, Alexander of Alexandria, and Tertullian! It comes from too much time studying Greek philosophers, like Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle!

Whew!  Garbage, is it?  What was Paul referring to when he spoke about speaking in tongues and he differentiated between the "mind" and "spirit" in 1 Cor 14:14?

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

How much more clear is needed to understand that there is a difference between soul and spirit? 

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Technically, "bones" isn't in that verse. It's "JOINTS and marrow."

Correct.  However, the point is that "joints" are BETWEEN bones and "marrow" is IN bones.  See the relevance?  

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

I'm going to make this VERY simple:

The Hebrew word that was TRANSLATED "soul" is the word "nefesh" (often written "nephesh"):

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of(abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. 

This word is a noun. Therefore, it has cases, person, gender, and number. It can also have a plural form as well as a dual form in Hebrew in addition to the singular. It stems from the root form which is a verb:

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

A "soul" is a "breathing creature" ("creature" meaning a "created being"). And, it comes from the word meaning "to breathe!" (I like to add the word "air" because what else does a "breathing creature" breathe but air?)

So, naafash means "to breathe (air)," and "nefesh" means an "(air)-breathing creature." That's what the word "soul" means!

The Hebrew word TRANSLATED as "spirit" is the word "ruwach" (sometimes written as "ruach"):

7307 ruwach רוּחַ (roo'-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

This word is also a noun. It stems from the verb form, which is also considered the root word of this family of words:

7306 ruwach  רוּחַ (roo-akh'). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

It's spelled the same as the above, but it is pronounced differently, and it is a verb, having tense, mood, and may form other parts of speech. In Hebrew, verbs also have gender and number.

Look it up for yourself! These entries are from the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary in the back of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance written for the King James Version.

And, these words were translated into Greek:

Hebrew: nefesh (nephesh) (noun) = Greek: psuchee (noun) = air-breathing creature
Hebrew: naafash (naphash) (verb) = Greek: psuchoo (verb) = to breathe
Hebrew: ruwach (noun) = Greek: pneuma (noun) = wind/breath
Hebrew: ruwach (verb) = Greek: pneoo (verb) = to blow

So,

A body + the breath (spirit) = an air-breathing creature (soul).

It's really that simple. Drop the words "this means ..." as though to re-define these terms. Anything added to these comes from theological philosophy, conjecture, opinions, and fantasy. If they were taught to you, then they could also come from doctrines, dogma, or catechisms of a particular branch of churches, which are STILL all of the above, just deferred to previous thinkers and teachers!

That's fine, but I think you should, at the very least, consider these facts when reading Scriptures that contain these words.

It's reasonable, but it's not Scriptural. "All the days of his life" = from the first day of his life to the last day of his life.

Thank you for your explanation of the two words.  I know that there can be overlap in the biblical use of the 2 words.  However, I have already shown you there IS a difference between them. 

I look forward to your view of 1 Cor 14:14, in which Paul makes clear that both soul and spirit have functions, and the soul isn't aware of all of the spirit's functions.

For example, in Paul's day, a person's soul couldn't understand when he/she was speaking in tongues from the human spirit.  

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The trigger for the industrial revolution was laissez-faire captialism, a rejection of Christian mercantilism.    The mercantile notions of a "just price" and a "fair wage" were abandoned and the free market was assumed to provide the best outcome for society.    

The failure of laissez-faire capitalism to provide adequate lives for most people was the ultimate source of socialism and eventually to the mixed economy that has been most successful in providing a decent life for the most people.

Shalom, The Barbarian.

While that is somewhat true, ideally, we should have a capitalism with the mercantile notions of a "just price" and a "fair wage" built in! But, you're right. Without a "fair wage" and a "just price" in the market, people DO go searching for some other system.

The original, Christian churches in the First Century were more socialistic and communistic. They would POOL their valuables together, as the Lord led each to do, and those valuables and products and even some services were distributed to those who needed them greatest first. And, this was determined by just men who insisted that "if any would not work, neither should he eat." (2 Thessalonians 3:10).

Abraham was a wealthy man, and he was called the "friend of God." It's okay to have a lot of money IF one knows how to use it properly. It is NOT for hording nor is it to spend entirely on oneself. Yeeshuwa` DID say, "The poor you have with you always," and that's a GOOD thing for it gives one a chance to use his or her wealth for the betterment of others.

ON THE OTHER HAND, it is most definitely NOT right to FORCE people to contribute to the poor with their own money! That's an EVIL that is propagated in our society and in our government! It's WRONG to "tax those who can afford it" to pay for social welfare! And, it is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to "tax those who can afford it" to pay for SIN and MURDER, and I mean contraceptives and abortion! NONE of that should be encouraged by our society and CERTAINLY NOT by those who call themselves "Christians!"

6 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Evoluton of a new class would take many millions of years.   Even with Woodmorappe's hyperevolution, there's just not enough time.   Moreover, new species would be popping up monthly; seems unlikely, given that no one thought this was remarkable enough to mention it.

And given that every class and order of tetrapods (what we normally call "animals") today is found in the fossil record, that just won't work.   It's noteworthy that AIG admits the evolution of new species and genera, maybe families.   Which is a slightly more defensive position for post-flood evolution.   Still, since all the families and most of the genera of exist "cat kind" is found in the fossil record, that won't fit the evidence, either.

One should understand that there ARE variations within the genetic code that should NOT be called "evolution" at all! These variations are NATURAL methods of survival WITHIN a genetic type! For instance, the color of a moth's wings, the size of a dog, the stripes of a cat, the speed of a cat; these all do NOT change the genetic make-up of the species and in some cases the genus of the creature! NOT EVERY CHANGE SHOULD BE LABELED "EVOLUTION!!!" God is a God of VARIETY! He LOVES the variety of the flowers, and animals He's created! Simply look at the variety that is within the classification of "man!" NONE of these various types of human beings are significantly different, and they can ALL mate and have offspring! There is NO SUCH THING as a "superior race" or an "inferior race!" And, when people have such notions, they usually end up hurting others, as Adolf Hitler did, trying to "eliminate the inferior races and promote the superior race!"

6 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It's an interesting thing.  Linnaeus had no explanation for this.   He was puzzled why such a family tree only existed for living things and not (for example) minerals.  Today we know why.  Such trees only exist for common descent, something confirmed by DNA analyses confirming the family tree of Linnaeus (who was reluctant to admit such a thing).

Actually, the better understanding is not "common descent," but "common design!" The SAME GOD who made all the "tetrapods," or "four-footed" animals, would use the same general pattern for those animals! "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" And, as far as "DNA analyses" go, one finds what one EXPECTS to find!

6 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Birds, for example, were said to be on the Ark.   Other dinosaurs probably not, given that the others were extinct long before humans arrived.

Oh, they were there. Dinosaurs are just overgrown lizards, and if a human today who lives to 75 or 80 on average once lived to 930, 912, 905, 910, 895, 962, 969, and 950 (discounting Enoch, who walked with God, and Lemech, who died just before the Flood,  and counting Noah, who lived through the Flood), which would be an average of 929 years, which was twelve times longer, then a lizard that would live for 5 years would live 12x longer, or 60 years. One interesting fact about reptiles is that they continue to grow as long as they live. So, if the lizard could grow to 2 feet in 5 years, then he could grow to 24 feet in 60 years! Ever compare a triceratops to a Johnston's chameleon?

6 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

As the YE creationist Kurt Wise points out, the fossil record contains a huge number of fossils confirming Darwin's predictions, all found after his book was published.   The number of predicted transitional forms found in my lifetime is huge.

Reptile to mammal

Fish to tetrapod

Land ungulate to whale

Base anapsid to turtles 

Wasps to ants

Salamanders to frogs

Hominoids to humans

(long list)

A long list of ASSUMPTIONS, you mean! So, is it that God cannot possibly just create a whale or a turtle? And, what hominoids could possibly be transitional to humans?!

This whole pseudo-science it totally ridiculous.