Four questions for YECs - (and a little history of creationism vs evolution)

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

He said that Adam had become like him.   But as you know, scripture never said that Adam was immortal, and God acknowledges that he was not. 

I know how much you want scripture to say that Adam was immortal.   But it doesn't.   Find a way to accept God's word as it is.

Shalom, The Barbarian.

Well, that's not quite true. While haa'Aadaam was not said to be immortal, HE COULD HAVE BEEN! That fact is expressed in how God chose to exile them from the Garden:

Genesis 3:21-24 (KJV)

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said,

"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever...":

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

That's why I believe that it was a "contest," of sorts: They were told not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and that it was the tree "in the midst of the garden." However, we are NOT told that they knew where the Tree of Life was! They may not even had known of its existence! But, if they had obeyed God and eaten of every fruit of the garden WITHOUT eating from the forbidden tree, they WOULD chanced upon it and have lived forever in their obedience. But, since they DID eat from it, they had to be PROTECTED from consequences of eating from the Tree of Life in their disobedient state.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, that's not quite true. While haa'Aadaam was not said to be immortal, HE COULD HAVE BEEN!

It's probably best not to add things to scripture that aren't there.

 

[Retrobyter]

37 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

It's probably best not to add things to scripture that aren't there.

I'm not adding a thing! I'm just connecting the dots! Perhaps, I could have worded it better: I meant "HE COULD HAVE BECOME IMMORTAL," not that there was a chance that he was. He was not immortal, and God kept him from becoming immortal in his disobedient state.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Retrobyter
to be a little clearer (hopefully)

[The Barbarian]

Obviously, God willing, Adam could have become anything.   But there is no scriptural support for the idea that he was at any time, immortal.

 

[dad2]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:38 PM, The Barbarian said:

So what do you think has changed?

 

We no longer live almost 1000 years for one thing. Plants now grow slow in comparison for another. Spirits do not live openly with men and marry for another. The earth is not watered from below today. What exact different laws are needed to achieve this we don't know. All we know are the laws we have now. So the right question is not what changed, but whether a change happened or not. The answer is that science doesn't know, and the bible and history indicate it has changed!

[dad2]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:43 PM, The Barbarian said:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

(God speaking)

God pointed out that a bad thing had happened. Satan, in saying they would be as gods when the disobeyed was lying. God did not say in that verse were were gods. Satan did say in that chapter we would be.

On 7/28/2023 at 12:43 PM, The Barbarian said:

I believe Him.   You should, too.   Your problem is you don't appreciate how devious satan can be.   It is his specialty to deceive by telling part of the truth.   You see, satan is a Biblical literalist.   Adam and Eve did not die physically that day.    They died spiritually.  But satan dishonestly interpreted it as a physical death to deceive them.

He still does that.   And it works surprisingly well for him.

Believing the bible is not 'telling part of the truth'. Not believing parts of it is dealing with only part of the truth. Satan did not deceive Eve by getting her to believe what God said. She was deceived by believing the lies and not believing God's word.

[The Barbarian]

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

God pointed out that a bad thing had happened. Satan, in saying they would be as gods when the disobeyed was lying. God did not say in that verse were were gods. 

God says that Adam had become like Him.   That's what I told you.   That's what God said.    I believe Him.   You should, too.

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

Believing the bible is not 'telling part of the truth'.

But as I told you, satan's words were deceptions by telling part of the truth.    Try to stay focused.   The Bible is God's word, not satan's.

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

Satan did not deceive Eve by getting her to believe what God said.

He deceived her by telling her part of the truth, but not all of it.  God confirms that eating from the tree did make Adam like Him.   But there was more to that than satan told Eve.

 

[The Barbarian]

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

So what do you think has changed?

 

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

We no longer live almost 1000 years for one thing.

Never did.   Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter.   God may have preserved the lifetimes of some humans, but He set the lifetime for humans generally at "fourscore and ten."    Seventy years.   You should believe what He says to you.

12 hours ago, dad2 said:

Plants now grow slow in comparison for another.

Show us the evidence for that.    Looks like you just added something else to the Bible to make it more acceptable to you.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

Spirits do not live openly with men and marry for another.

That's supernatural, not laws of nature.   Miracles still happen, BTW.   You're wrong on both of those assumptions.

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

The earth is not watered from below today.

Often it is.  We call them "springs."   You're cofusing the Garden of Eden, a miracle of God, with natural laws.   

 

13 hours ago, dad2 said:

All we know are the laws we have now.

But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence.    So you're wrong about that, too.  The answer is that science can find out about these things, and the Bible doesn't support your new revisions of it.

 

[dad2]

12 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

God says that Adam had become like Him.   That's what I told you.   That's what God said.    I believe Him.   You should, too.

You quoted something about becoming gods. Satan said that. You are trying to attribute it to God. But there is another place in Scripture where it does talk about being as gods. It all depends on context. The devil goading Eve with saying she would be as a god was wrong and evil. The bible pointing out how we were created as high creatures in the image of God and as gods before we fell is good. It shows we need Jesus to regain what was lost.

12 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But as I told you, satan's words were deceptions by telling part of the truth.    Try to stay focused.   The Bible is God's word, not satan's.

He deceived her by telling her part of the truth, but not all of it.  God confirms that eating from the tree did make Adam like Him.   But there was more to that than satan told Eve.

 

Except man could not handle it. That was why God severely warned them not to eat the fruit. So only in one small way was fallen man like God in almost all ways he was no longer like Him! In fact he was now separated from God and dying physically and dead spiritually.

[dad2]

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Never did. 

That is direct unbelief in what the bible says. The lifespans are given carefully over and over and over and over.

 

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  Even very ancient humans had life spans pretty much like ours or shorter. 

Not before and shortly after the flood.

 

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  God may have preserved the lifetimes of some humans, but He set the lifetime for humans generally at "fourscore and ten."    Seventy years.   You should believe what He says to you.

False. That was much later.

 

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That's supernatural, not laws of nature.   Miracles still happen, BTW.   You're wrong on both of those assumptions.

What we read in the bible is not an assumption. Neither was the average life span a miracle generally. You just do not believe. I wonder if you believe men will again live such long lives in the millennium?

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Often it is.  We call them "springs."   You're cofusing the Garden of Eden, a miracle of God, with natural laws.   

No I am not. After the garden plants still grew fast, spirits still lived in the world openly and married, and people lived many many centuries.

 

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But we can observe what laws were in place millions of years ago, by looking at the evidence. 

False. You project beliefs on to what we see out in space and everywhere else. It is a great deception that God expects us to reject and believe what He says.

 

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   So you're wrong about that, too.  The answer is that science can find out about these things, and the Bible doesn't support your new revisions of it.

The bible does record great differences in nature in the past and the future. Science cannot find out because it is locked into a belief system and totally unable to deal with anything spiritual or about what laws are like in the future or far past. Take that to the bank.