New Wine in Old Wineskins (clergy/laity system)

[Marathoner]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I am doing my best to get into this mindset I really am. I know your words ring true here. You can call me short straw because God seems to have taken pretty much everything from me. If I didn't know better I would swear He hates me.

I had a real heart to heart with God last evening and I am surprised He hasn't struck me dead. 

I don't feel love right now. In one pleading prayer after the other I come up empty.

I know He loves all of us, but right now He has a really funny way of showing it.

I am waiting on the Lord....sometimes with apprehension and great impatience.

I think I would be better off if He just ended me.

I've been there, my friend. Praying for you!

[JustClay]

 

5 hours ago, Starise said:

I am doing my best to get into this mindset I really am. I know your words ring true here. You can call me short straw because God seems to have taken pretty much everything from me. If I didn't know better I would swear He hates me.

I had a real heart to heart with God last evening and I am surprised He hasn't struck me dead. 

I don't feel love right now. In one pleading prayer after the other I come up empty.

I know He loves all of us, but right now He has a really funny way of showing it.

I am waiting on the Lord....sometimes with apprehension and great impatience.

I think I would be better off if He just ended me.

 

 

Hi @Starise…. I guess we’ve all been “under the influence” of our feelings (or lack of them) at one time or another.  I’ve had to remind myself so many times that I’m not really who I think I am, but I am what my Father has told me I am.  I seldom post here, but I visit often and enjoy your posts.  I join with the many others who are living by faith and praying you through this rough patch.

2 Corinthians 4:7-18  NKJV

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed— 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body….

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Starise said:

I am doing my best to get into this mindset I really am. I know your words ring true here. You can call me short straw because God seems to have taken pretty much everything from me. If I didn't know better I would swear He hates me.

I had a real heart to heart with God last evening and I am surprised He hasn't struck me dead. 

I don't feel love right now. In one pleading prayer after the other I come up empty.

I know He loves all of us, but right now He has a really funny way of showing it.

I am waiting on the Lord....sometimes with apprehension and great impatience.

I think I would be better off if He just ended me.

 

 

Hi Starise,

Do you think your past `being used of God` has now coloured your expectations of how God wants to work through you now?

You can read from some of our experiences of going through `losing everything` that we have come out into God`s sunshine now. Yes, `losing it all` is difficult, especially when we don`t know what is ahead. Plus thinking that God has forgotten us, but trust God through the dark valley for HE WILL TAKE YOU THROUGH. 

Be patient, and keep looking and trusting Him.

praying, Marilyn.

[Roymond]

On 3/13/2023 at 11:11 AM, Vine Abider said:

Is the system (e.g., clergy/laity) the order of God or is it according to man's interpretation thereof?  Of course, every groups believes their interpretation is the accurate one from the word.  But, I think, some systems are based more on man's tradition of how they think "church" should be done.  This oftentimes results in "going to church" to watch "a show" of some sort, with minimal functioning & participation from all the individual members of the body of Christ.

The clergy/laity divide is man-made, but that doesn't mean that the status of clergy is man-made:  the picture in scripture is that everyone is the laity, which just means the people of God, and the clergy are drawn from the people without leaving them.  Paul even speaks of ordination, which involved both setting someone apart for ministry and passing on authority to do that ministry.

The problem is that over the centuries what began as a ministry with many parts: a roll of those supported by the church in a major Roman city in the fifth century lists over a half-dozen types of ministries that were all clergy [notably including "exorcist"], but by the time two more centuries has passed the list was down to three:  liturgist/celebrant, who led the people in the liturgy; preacher/teacher; and 'visitor', someone who visited the sick and feeble (what we might call "shut-ins") and others in distress and did what we would call pastoral counseling -- and by the end of the ninth century it was just deacons, priests, and bishops.  If we take that one list and add to to the offices/ministries in the church that Paul lists, it's easy to picture a congregation back in the fifth century with half the men and possibly as many women being "clergy".  The "boiled down" position of priest came to be called "the Office of Christ in the Church", a designation that should terrify any would-be pastor since who can do all the ministries that Christ did and do even a quarter of them well?!

We need to start "unpacking" that Office the way the one congregation I wrote about did, stripping away everything from the pastor/priest except the ministry of Word and Sacrament.... and then begin dividing that, since we know from both the scriptures and church history that there wasn't just one pastor or priest per church, there were several.  There's no reason that elders who are willing can't be ordained for specific parts of the ministry in their location -- especially if there are good speakers with a good grasp of the essentials (starting with the Nicene Creed), and churning out a new sermon every week can really wear a pastor down (it's a significant contributor to burn-out).

[Marilyn C]

The more we appreciate each other`s gifting in the Lord and receive from each other, the more the Body will grow and be effective in daily life. 

Always looking to the public meeting and those running it will weaken a person`s view of the Lord and Him building His Body.

If people think that the public meeting IS the CHURCH, then they will have a warped understanding of the Head of the Body and His work over the centuries and across the world.

There will always be that looking back to the early church and how it was organised instead of appreciating that the Head IS doing an amazing work through His body throughout the world WITHOUT man`s system. 

The difficulty is for people to see anything else than a public meeting as representing the Body of Christ. (Been there.)

THAT is the challenge!

How do you see what the Head is doing in His Body?

Marilyn.

[Michael37]

27 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

The more we appreciate each other`s gifting in the Lord and receive from each other, the more the Body will grow and be effective in daily life. 

Always looking to the public meeting and those running it will weaken a person`s view of the Lord and Him building His Body.

If people think that the public meeting IS the CHURCH, then they will have a warped understanding of the Head of the Body and His work over the centuries and across the world.

There will always be that looking back to the early church and how it was organised instead of appreciating that the Head IS doing an amazing work through His body throughout the world WITHOUT man`s system. 

The difficulty is for people to see anything else than a public meeting as representing the Body of Christ. (Been there.)

THAT is the challenge!

How do you see what the Head is doing in His Body?

Marilyn.

Yes. In my early years I mistook corporate worship for united fellowship, but soon wised up after often being ignored in the supermarket by people I shared pews with.

[farouk]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The more we appreciate each other`s gifting in the Lord and receive from each other, the more the Body will grow and be effective in daily life. 

Always looking to the public meeting and those running it will weaken a person`s view of the Lord and Him building His Body.

If people think that the public meeting IS the CHURCH, then they will have a warped understanding of the Head of the Body and His work over the centuries and across the world.

There will always be that looking back to the early church and how it was organised instead of appreciating that the Head IS doing an amazing work through His body throughout the world WITHOUT man`s system. 

The difficulty is for people to see anything else than a public meeting as representing the Body of Christ. (Been there.)

THAT is the challenge!

How do you see what the Head is doing in His Body?

Marilyn.

@Marilyn C I am reminded of 2 Corinthians 4.18: "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

It's easy to fall back on looking at the outward and concentrating on personalities in the local church, whereas the challenge is to keep 'looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith' (Hebrews 12.2).
 

[farouk]

8 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Yes. In my early years I mistook corporate worship for united fellowship, but soon wised up after often being ignored in the supermarket by people I shared pews with.

Good indeed to participate meaningfully in Acts 2.42 activities.

[ladypeartree]

You will live on this earth till God calls you home then for eternity with Him . PLEASE know that what you are going through is TOUGH  and all the fears and confusion is normal  REST my brother and know you are loved and prayed for and that this too WILL pass   

[Vine Abider]

Brother @Starise - know that we are praying for you!  I can't imagine what that's like . . . may you find Christ as a rich supply in these days!  "The Lord is with your spirit - grace be with you!"  2 Tim 4:22

 

This showed up in my email-box today - a daily devotional from T. Austin Sparks. He has some rather strong words about the subject of this thread.  Here 'tis:

DAILY OPEN WINDOWS

March 18   Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations. (Haggai 2:6,7) It seems a terrible thing, even to think, but as we have touched so very much of what is called 'Christianity' we are bound to believe that, because vast numbers who call themselves Christian are in an utterly false position, and the system itself has become so largely an earthly, traditional, formal, and unspiritual thing, this worldwide shaking is quite necessary and will be eventually justified. If we were writing a treatise, we could show that what is called 'Christianity' is really the greatest enemy of Christ. It will be seen that it is not a matter of substituting another and better system for an old and poor or bad one. Some people seem to think that it is all, or largely, a matter of the order, technique, and form, and if we returned to the "New Testament" form or order of churches, all would be well. The fact is that, while certain things characterized the New Testament churches, the New Testament does not give us a complete pattern according to which churches are to be set up or formed! There is no blue-print for churches in the New Testament, and to try to form New Testament churches is only to create another system which may be as legal, sectarian and dead as others. Churches, like the Church, are organisms which spring out of Life, which Life itself springs out of the Cross of Christ wrought into the very being of believers. Unless believers are crucified people, there can be no true expression of the Church. By T. Austin-Sparks from: Things Which Will Be Shaken

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Vine Abider