New Wine in Old Wineskins (clergy/laity system)

[Roymond]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes, as you point out, man's system is an organization which responds to man's things.  And then control has to come in.

Agreed. Organizations control.  But organisms grow in life and the members of the body are related to one another in the life of the one Spirit shared.

I agree.  Structure = organization = man's efforts = flesh

There is certainly a LOT of good that has come out of individuals in the clergy/laity structure - God is able to use it all!  And I appreciate many who are in the clergy (with various "titles") as they often do have a good walk with the Lord.  But the system inherently does certain things. Organizations are always opposed to organisms, which is how the bible relates what the ekklesia is:  a vine, a body, God's farm, etc.  Even the building/temple of God is referred to as "living stones."

Here is what the structure does ultimately - it sets up a class of those who have responsibilities.  Others seeing those with responsibilities let them do it.  The leadership class then takes on more and more, while the follower class does less and less. The followers look to the leaders to do things, and in the process the followers get weaker.  It is up to someone else to speak the word, to lead the worship & music, to setup outreaches, to take care of the saints needs and the church property, etc. & etc.  So the followers pay tithes to keep it all going, while their own spiritual functioning gets suppressed.

Sure, there are some groups that do a better job with getting the so-called "laity" involved, but overall (in my experience and view) the structure suppresses much of the function of the body. 

You would love a church I encountered once basically by accident.  They had lost their pastor and were trying to get a new one, but months went by with no responses.  When it was approaching half a year, things were falling apart, so the elders met and made a decision:  they divided up all the duties for everything that kept the church going, and part of the agreement was that if an elder thought someone else could do one of the duties they'd taken on they could approach that person, and if the person agreed to take on whatever it was, then they were consecrated a deacon (this was a church that doesn't ordinarily have deacons) in charge of whatever.  To set the example, they started with the church janitor, installing him as deacon in charge of the physical building in a ceremony not much different from an ordination -- and with the authority to recruit sub-deacons.

Soon there was a deacon treasurer, a deacon usher, a deacon in charge of making sure the church building was opened and then secured when it was supposed to be, a deacon lector in charge of making sure that someone was signed up to read the scripture lessons for the day, a deacon for taking care of the grounds outside the church, a deaconess in charge of Sunday School, a deaconess in charge of the kitchen, a deacon in charge of youth... and a sub-deacon for plumbing, one for lighting, one for keeping the sanctuary clean, and so on.  By the time it has been a year with no pastor the elders agreed they had pulled things back together.

Then there was a roof leak, and the janitor didn't really know about roofing, but there was a part-time contractor in the congregation, so he got installed as sub-deacon for roofing.  Someone noted that the carpet in the narthex (foyer) was getting pretty dirty; she got appointed sub-deaconness in charge of carpets (the reasoning being that since she plainly paid attention to such things she was a good candidate to manage it).

By the time a year and a half with no pastor rolled around, there were nine elders, twelve deacons, over twenty sub-deacons.  IT had been getting harder to find guest preachers, so the elders sifted through the membership for good public speakers -- not to be preachers themselves but to help the elders learn!

A bit after two years they finally got a new pastor candidate, and he came several Sundays to preach and so people could get to know him.  He noticed when he came just to look around that the church office secretary had a name plaque that said "Deaconess <name>" on it and the janitor's room said "Deacon <name>".  Then he was introduced to the treasurer, "Deacon <name>" -- and so it went, with seemingly every other person he was introduced to being "elder", deacon", deaconess", "sub-deacon" etc.  He just kept taking note of this until about his third visit he asked about the organization system. 

Wanting to be thorough and having expected the question, the elders had an organizational chart with nearly fifty boxes in it with the name and the task.  When they'd gone over it all, he looked around the table and asked, "What is there for me to do?" because everything was covered including missions and evangelism and a food bank and more.  He'd been expecting a typical parish where the pastor was just about everything but the treasurer.  The head elder had their answer ready:  "Luther said the task of the ordained ministry is the Word and Sacraments.  That's what you do -- we've got everything else covered."

I had a chance to talk with that pastor about a year after he'd accepted the call to serve there, and he was still in awe of what had transpired:  he didn't have to sit through the women's group, or shepherd the teenagers, or write a budget, or order materials, he just did what the Apostles had done, devoting himself to Word and Sacrament, and if there was anything he needed, there was an elder or deacon or sub-deacon and he didn't even know who was in charge of what -- the deaconess church secretary knew all that.

The amazing thing is that no one told those elders that they should recruit and consecrate deacons, they just knew something had to be done and deacons were what the Apostles turned to back in the beginning, and they didn't have to work hard to recruit because once the first three or so deacons had been officially installed during Sunday worship it seemed every time they identified a new need someone was ready for that position.

I've seen it done at some other churches but top-down, the pastor holding to the view that his job was Word and Sacrament, and insisting that for whatever needs there were it was up to the elders to find someone to take on the task, but having it happen spontaneously still seems a marvel.

[Roymond]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Roymond,

Good to bring up that point about the elders. Now, because we have mostly seen those in authority as `over ` others, especially in the world, then that is the example we tend to think of. However, Jesus said -

`You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet is shall NOT be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. ` (Matt. 20: 25 & 26)

We see that Jesus is showing the opposite from the world`s way of operating. So, we ask ourselves how does it work with elders appointed. Let`s look at Paul, Timothy and Silvanus working amongst the believers.

`Pau, Silvanus and Timothy......we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes he own children....remember, brethren, our labour and toil, for labouring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you,....

You are witnesses and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged everyone of you, as a father does his own children...` (1 Thess. 1: 1,  2: 7 - 11)

These men in authority worked among the believers so they saw their behaviour, and attitude - as a nursing mother and caring father; they also worked to pay their own way so as not be a burden to the believers.

The criteria for an elder is moral character whereas today a leader of an organisation would need to be a CEO, with the ability to oversee all the operating of it. This involves, managing buildings, maintenance, hiring staff, organising people to look after the grounds and attend to the operating of a public meeting - with insurance, equipment, obeying Government laws, etc etc.

This involves much finance and time and effort to keep the whole system functioning. None of that is in God`s word when discipling others.

 

Most of what you list should be done by deacons.  I encountered a Presbyterian church where the elders got tired of members bringing every little petty thing to them so they brushed off an old manual from somewhere and followed its guidance to set up a system of deacons while they focused more on spiritual ministry, several of them even becoming pretty good preachers.  It stood them in good stead when their pastor fell ill and was out of commission for three or four months.  A really awesome aspect of that was that when he was back to health he asked, "What got deferred because you needed me for it?" and the answer was, "Well... nothing, actually" -- and he thought that was wonderful.

[Roymond]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Moving to house churches would save money and people would have more interaction, but then the `model` of leadership `over others,` could make little fiefdoms. Still, people would then vote with their feet. 

But, I don`t see that happening as most people going to a public meeting think that that IS the church, and don`t realise it is just one way of coming together.

all the best.

That reminds me of a Lutheran congregation when I was in grad school.  They'd had a budget crisis and to the amazement of probably every other pastor and congregation in town, selling the building was one of the options listed!

It didn't happen because the realtors they talked to said there wasn't a market for a building like theirs built of stone with arched windows, a high arched ceiling, interior pillars, and all the rest one might expect of a church building constructed in the 1940s.  But what did happen was interesting:

* the pastor and assistant pastor took salary cuts

* classrooms got remodeled and leased to some community organizations for evening events

* the heat in the sanctuary was turned down three degrees and the air conditioning was raised two degrees

* most of the parking lot was turned into rental spaces six days a week, at about two-thirds of the going rate

* Bible studies and other groups shifted to meeting in homes

Those are the ones I remember.  Basically they cut their expenses while making a bunch of things more neighborhood-oriented and altered much of their facility to something the neighborhood could use (the parking lot idea wasn't really for money, it was prompted by a report on public parking in the city).

A reporter heard about the meeting where selling the building was voted on, and he wrote an article for the area newspaper.  As changes started being made, he reported on those as well.  The congregation got known for being the church willing to sell their building.  People using the facilities often interacted with the church staff.  And as word got around, they got more Sunday visitors, and some of those visitors became members, and offerings increased to the point that within a year of deciding not to sell they restored the pastors' salaries -- and turned the heat up one degree on Sundays.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I'll keep you posted.

Yes please as am interested. 

[Roymond]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:09 AM, Marathoner said:

You're a good brother and it's great to read your contributions on the forum when you make an appearance, so your response deserves a nuanced answer. 

You make a fair point. Is it always terrible? No. I can't make a statement that it's always terrible in good faith. So, in my experience, then, it often proves to be detrimental to discipling. Discipling is, in my estimation, the most important aspect of iron sharpening iron. We each have our place and role in the Body, and the scriptures exhort us to not forsake gathering together. Some are scholars, others look after the troubled and the struggling, and others wait tables. Seeing as how we're all servants, we're to love one another as the Lord loves us. The greatest of all served us first!

If the spirit of our fellowship in Jesus Christ prevails, then I agree with you. Which brings me to the last portion of your response: yes, a degree of hierarchy is practically unavoidable. It happens as I have witnessed on more than one occasion. We are most assuredly not perfect during our sojourn in this flesh and blood body, so it's unreasonable to expect that some manner of hierarchy won't make an appearance. As it applied to the fellowship I referenced in my post above, it was the beginning of the end...

Because a lack of hierarchy was the strength of this gathering. After I left, it fell apart. 

This brings to mind the pastor at a Foursquare Gospel church I attended for a while when all the liturgical churches in the town where I was were unacceptable for various reasons (liberal theology, legalism, KJV-only....).  Almost the moment I walked into the open room that served as the sanctuary I knew who the pastor was; as a friend who had the same experience a few weeks later put it, "He just oozed 'pastorness'".  Several times we saw newcomers have the same reaction, able to tell without asking anyone who the pastor was in a room full of people milling around.

Sadly they got an assistant pastor who was a Puritan type if I ever met one, and when the head pastor retired and the assistant became head the place started going downhill, turning judgmental and legalistic and drifting towards Dominionism.  I stayed long enough to help turn the old YMCA building they'd acquired into a new church, and that was it.

[teddyv]

We've been without a pastor for about 2 years but the elders and deacons and admin staff keep everything going. Certain ministries continue. We get pre-recorded sermons prepared by a retired pastor from our denomination (who is very good).

This is perhaps one of the values in a denominational structure that can mutually support various congregations.

[steve morrow]

 

CHRISTIANS???   TRUSTING  THE  LORD  ???   

 

PSALM 4:2  o you sons of men how long will you turn  MY  glory  --INTO  SHAME--  HOW  LONG  WILL YOU  LOVE  VANITY -- and seek after leasing   selah

 

PSALM 35:26  let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt let them be  --clothed with shame and dishonor--  THAT  MAGNIFY  THEMSELVES  AGAINST  ME 

 

PSALM 19:7  the law of  THE  LORD  IS PERFECT   --CONVERTING  THE  SOUL  ---  THE  TESTIMONY  OF  THE  LORD  IS  SURE  MAKING  WISE  THE  SIMPLE 

--19:8-- the statutes of  THE  LORD  are right rejoicing the heart the commandment of  THE  LORD  is pure enlightening the eyes

--19:9-- the fear of  THE  LORD  is clean enduring forever  ---the  judgments of  THE  LORD  are true and righteous altogether---

--19:10--  more to be desired  ---  are they than gold yea than much fine gold ---  sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb

--19:11-- moreover by them is thy servant warned and in keeping of them there is great reward

 

1 CORINTHIANS 1:10  now I beseech you brethren by the name of our  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  --that you all speak the same thing  ---  and that there no divisions among you-- but that you be perfectly joined together   --in the same mind and in the same judgment 

--1:18--  for the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness   ---  but unto us which are saved   ---  IT  IS  THE  POWER  OF  GOD 

 

PSALM 111:6  HE  hath showed  HIS  people the power of  HIS  works that  HE  may give them the heritage of the heathen

 PSALM 111:7  THE  WORKS  OF  HIS  HANDS  ARE  VERITY  AND  JUDGMENT  ALL  HIS  COMMANDMENTS  ARE  SURE 

PSALM 33:4  for the word of  THE  LORD  is right  ---and all  HIS  works are done in truth---

PROVERBS 18:21  death and life are in the  --POWER  OF  THE  TONGUE--  and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof

PSALM 66:7 HE  ruleth by  HIS  POWER  for ever  HIS  eyes behold the nations --let not the rebellious  --- exalt  themselves --- selah

 

PSALM 140:8  grant not  O LORD  the desires of the wicked  --further not his wicked device lest they  --EXALT  THEMSELVES--  selah

2 CORINTHIANS 12:9  and  HE  unto me  MY  grace is sufficient for thee for  MY strength is made perfect in weakness most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities that  --the power of  CHRIST  may rest upon me 

 

EPHESIANS 2:2  wherein --in time past-- you walked according to the course of this world according to the prince of  --THE  POWER-- of the air the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

 

ROMANS 1:28  and even as they did not like to retain  GOD  in their knowledge  ---GOD  GAVE  THEM  OVER--- to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient 

--1:29-- being filled with all unrighteousness fornication wickedness covetousness maliciousness full of envy  --murder--DEBATE--deceit--malignity whisperers  --1:30-- backbiters  ---HATERS  OF  GOD --- despiteful proud boasters inventors of evil things disobedient to parents --1:31--without understanding covenant breakers without natural affection implacable unmerciful

 

*******1:32-- who knowing the judgment of  GOD  that they which commit such things are worthy of death*******not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them*******

 

ECCLESIASTES 12:11  the words of the wise are as goads and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies ---WHICH  ARE  GIVEN  FROM  ONE  SHEPHERD 

 

JOHN 10:14  I  AM  THE  GOOD  SHEPHERD  AND  KNOW  MY  SHEEP  AND  AM  KNOWN  OF  MINE 

 

ISAIAH 14:24  THE  LORD  of hosts hath sworn saying ---surely as I have thought so shall it come to pass  ---  and as I have purposed so shall it stand 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

[Neighbor]

On 3/10/2023 at 4:01 PM, Vine Abider said:

I might catch some flack for this, but does anybody else see how pernicious* the whole clergy/laity system (which I believe is an old wineskin) is and what a detriment it is to the fresh move of the Spirit?

Not only do I not see it I find it to be a seriously errant premise. 

[FJK]

1 minute ago, Neighbor said:

Not only do I not see it I find it to be a seriously errant premise. 

Curious, why do you see it that way?

[Neighbor]

7 minutes ago, FJK said:

Curious, why do you see it that way?

All that God has created has been created  with a component of heirarchy, of order, and with that hierarchal order has come through God responsibility as well as duty and privilege.

Key to all order is serious personal humility and personal willing submission to it ( Order). with order comes leadership; leadership appointed by God  whether it be government or Christ's Church.