Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Your closest friendnt]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:33 AM, Vine Abider said:

 

This is why Jesus came, to restore God's authority and high purpose in man. 

 

@Vine Abider, @Marilyn C. 

This statement above is not clear of what is all about. To make it comprehensive it must first establish what was God's authority and how it came about to loose it...Before we even deal of how God restored his authority...

Because if it happens that God did not loose any authority then why would we talk about how he restored the authority he supposed to have lost...

This is calling to identify something very specific that will fit within the statement that God lost some authority he had, and the name the very specific would be appropriate...and as I perceived it has to be about some authority that God must have on the man...and we have to start from the first man while he was still in the Garden and before he disobeyed God's comandment...did he...it will be something to take another look...but that besides the point if it comes to that. 

 

On 4/21/2023 at 10:33 AM, Vine Abider said:

That Christ infused man exercises rightful authority in Rev 12.

This is something to talk about later on...

One or two issues at a time.  

Edited April 22, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

@Vine Abider, @Marilyn C. 

This statement above is not clear of what is all about. To make it comprehensive it must first establish what was God's authority and how it came about to loose it...Before we even deal of how God restored his authority...

Because if it happens that God did not loose any authority then why would we talk about how he restored the authority he supposed to have lost...

 

Hi YCF,

Good point to bring up and clear up. Now this is what I said - 

`The predominate reason for Christ coming as a man to earth, was so that He could ascend to the highest position, as a glorified man and restore all the rulerships that had been in rebellion. And that starts from the third heaven, Himself on His own throne, to the universal realm and finally the earth. `

We know that God made the world and all that is in it and never gave it away. However, God did `delegate ` authority to Lucifer and later to man and rulers of nations. All these became rebellious and that is what God is dealing with. 

The positions of delegated authority in God`s great kingdom will be given to those whom the Lord chooses in every realm. 

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks.  This is where we differ just a bit - how God sees man.  

Here are some verses for your consideration:

"What is man that Thou art mindful of him?" (Psalm 8:4)

"God who stretches forth the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and creates the spirit of man within him." (Zech 12:1)

"Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion . . .  over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Gen 1:28)

"The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to mankind. (Psalm 115:16)

"gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all"  (Eph 1:22-23)

"All things are yours . . . the world"  (1 Cor 3:21-22)

"And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." (Eph 2:22)

"He is not ashamed to call them brothers." (Heb 2:11)

"His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms"  (Eph 3:10)

Therefore, Jesus Christ is the one, unique God/Man, and His absolute deity is without question. Man is God's highest creation, meant to express Him and have dominion.  Man blew it, so God came as a man to correct the situation back to His original intention.

Hi VA,

I agree that God gave man `delegated` authority over the earth. And that, we agree will be restored. However, God had a greater purpose for man than just the earth dominion. God desired that a company of mankind would become like His Son and rule with Him from the highest.

You wrote this verse on another thread, and it reveals God`s purpose -

`I press towards the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.` (Phil. 3: 14)

High - Gk. `ano` meaning `on top. ` 

There are different `callings, ` and positions in God`s great kingdom, and we, the Body of Christ will be with the Lord on His very own throne in the highest - the third heaven.

`Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.` (Phil. 3: 15)

regards, Marilyn.

[Your closest friendnt]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi YCF,

Good point to bring up and clear up. Now this is what I said - 

`The predominate reason for Christ coming as a man to earth, was so that He could ascend to the highest position, as a glorified man and restore all the rulerships that had been in rebellion. And that starts from the third heaven, Himself on His own throne, to the universal realm and finally the earth. `

We know that God made the world and all that is in it and never gave it away. However, God did `delegate ` authority to Lucifer and later to man and rulers of nations. All these became rebellious and that is what God is dealing with. 

The positions of delegated authority in God`s great kingdom will be given to those whom the Lord chooses in every realm. 

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn, first I appreciate that you said something and because I have not been thinking those things in the way you have. This is very difficult to begin to study and get in the thick of it. But perhaps a real situation where the parties are identified and their doings then possibly then I will be able and easier to connect...

One think I understand is that none of the other creatures God made will ever enslave man...like any of the creation no mater what to possess the intelligence to enslave and control man in the way we do to the other animals our selves...

And beginning with Genesis God show to Adam what he meant...when he show him that to kill an animal is not prohibited and is not an act against the will of God...but to kill a man it is...and God will required it from the killer, what ever that is...

The point is that with his perfect obedience to his Heavenly Father Jesus Christ made things New and to do that he had to set many things aside...this is what we need to identify the things that are and were not before..

And why people long to go back to the things that were and are not anymore, instant of looking at the new things we have in Jesus Christ..

I do not understand why they want to have what Adam had before his exit from the Garden and what is that they mean by that? It is not really clear...

If it happens what they are asking they will live in fear because they will have the burden to mantain their own righteousness the way Adam did.

 

[Marilyn C]

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hi Marilyn, first I appreciate that you said something and because I have not been thinking those things in the way you have. This is very difficult to begin to study and get in the thick of it. But perhaps a real situation where the parties are identified and their doings then possibly then I will be able and easier to connect...

One think I understand is that none of the other creatures God made will ever enslave man...like any of the creation no mater what to possess the intelligence to enslave and control man in the way we do to the other animals our selves...

And beginning with Genesis God show to Adam what he meant...when he show him that to kill an animal is not prohibited and is not an act against the will of God...but to kill a man it is...and God will required it from the killer, what ever that is...

The point is that with his perfect obedience to his Heavenly Father Jesus Christ made things New and to do that he had to set many things aside...this is what we need to identify the things that are and were not before..

And why people long to go back to the things that were and are not anymore, instant of looking at the new things we have in Jesus Christ..

I do not understand why they want to have what Adam had before his exit from the Garden and what is that they mean by that? It is not really clear...

If it happens what they are asking they will live in fear because they will have the burden to mantain their own righteousness the way Adam did.

 

I think that topic will need a thread of its own.

[WilliamL]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:08 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi William,

The earthly priest obviously had to purify himself, however the Lord DID NOT need to purify Himself as He was pure, without blemish, -

`For such a high priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens. ` (Heb. 7: 26)

Marilyn, Jesus most certainly did have to become purified, because He bore all the sins of the world upon Himself:

" Although Jesus lived a sinless life, God “made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Cor. 5:21; Is. 53:4-6 Therefore, He was unclean upon His Resurrection from the dead, and needed to immediately ascend to the Most Holy Place in heaven to become purified. This is why He said to Mary Magdalene,

" John 20:17 “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father…”

" In contrast, the same day in the evening, after His return from “having obtained (for) Himself eternal redemption” (Heb. 9:12, above), he told His disciples, “Handle Me and see…” Luke 24:39 By that time, atonement had been made “for Himself and for His household.” Lev. 16:17, above. "

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1505-the-tabernacle-and-court-part-4-the-most-holy-place/

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:16 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

Rev 5:6 

6. `And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders, stood  a LAMB as though it had BEEN SLAIN,...` (Rev. 5: 6)

***this is what Marilyn C  posted the Rev 5:6 scripture to show that a reference was made to something that has happened in the past..something that because it has happened in the past it cannot be a future happening...

The slaying "happened in the past," but this coming before the throne at Hebrew 9's a "second time" is yet future. If you just choose to ignore the timing-message of 4:1 then you will never be able to understand chapter 5ff.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The slaying "happened in the past," but this coming before the throne at Hebrew 9's a "second time" is yet future. If you just choose to ignore the timing-message of 4:1 then you will never be able to understand chapter 5ff.

 

Revelation 12 is part of a book that is divided in different parts...

The chapter 12 is divided in other sub-parts or sub-chapters.

From verse 1-6 the first part, and from verse 7-9 the second part, and from 10-12 the third and from 12-17 the forth part of chapter twelve. 

***This is the third part copy below from verse 10-12 and it seems that it is subdivided in three sub-parts. Each sub-part for each verse. 

In verse 11.They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death. 

***In this verse we have the believers of Jesus Christ who were persecuted and at the end they died as martyrs of their faith in Jesus Christ and they died prophesing that Jesus is the truth Christ of God and he died shedding his blood the blood of the New Covenant which includes the forgiveness of sins and the Heavenly Inheritance for everyone who believes in Jesus Christ...

Giving the testimony believing that the Death and Hades cannot have them after they died because they are under the Atoning blood of the Lamb of God...

John the last disciple of Jesus to be alive has witness the death of some of those belivers martyrs as they were the fellow believers of the numerous believers who were put to death as martyrs of their faith in Jesus Christ and continuous to be martyr and put to death to this day and it will continious to have martyrs of the faith of Jesus Christ there after and that was  beginning with James (if we did not count the death of Jesus Christ) one of the first disciples of Jesus and Stephen one of the first deacons...who were martyred because they believed that Jesus was indeed the Christ of God and they had forgiveness of their sins in his blood...they were sanctified and justified by the blood of Jesus Christ and many of them were from the nations of the world and others from the twelve.  tribes of Israel died believing that upon their death that they belong to Jesus Christ and the Dragon cannot touch them...

Those martyrs are under the blood of eternal fountain of the Atonic blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God...

Stephen was under the Atonic blood of Jesus Christ..because God had made Jesus Lord and had given him the Kingdom...

Jesus was sitted with God on his Throne...

We are under the Atonement of the eternal fountain of the blood of the Lamb as it was those who believed in the day of Pentecost...

As they were Cornelius the uncircumcised Roman and all his friends and his family who were in his house and they were not Catholics. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

@WilliamL, 

Revelation 12:11 are redeemed by the Atonic blood of the Lamb of God...

For that to happen Jesus must have died and raised from the dead and ascented to Heaven and sitted on the Throne of God with God...and God has given him as the Shepherd of all the Nations of the world because he shed his blood unto death for all the people of the world...

That must take place first before we have the martyrs of the faith in verse twelve. 

Both are past events. 

One happened first and then the other, the redeemed martyrs deaths. 

The Gospel is along these lines, accept your redemption in Jesus Christ in his Atoning blood, and Jesus will wait for you till the last moment of your physical death and if you do not then you will be lost..

Jesus Christ redeemed all the people at the moment of his death...this is why he can preach the Gospel to the people in the place of the dead...this why he is the Live Giver to anyone who believes in him beginning from the time Jesus began to preached the Gospel in the place of the dead...

Or if someone was to put it in this way...since the moment of time when Jesus took hold of the Keys of Death and Hades and opened the doors to set the prisoners free...

That includes that someone is in the knowledge of the Gospel and he has been put in the valley of decision. 

***11.They triumphed over him
    by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
    as to shrink from death.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Marilyn, Jesus most certainly did have to become purified, because He bore all the sins of the world upon Himself:

" Although Jesus lived a sinless life, God “made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Cor. 5:21; Is. 53:4-6 Therefore, He was unclean upon His Resurrection from the dead, and needed to immediately ascend to the Most Holy Place in heaven to become purified. This is why He said to Mary Magdalene,

" John 20:17 “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father…”

" In contrast, the same day in the evening, after His return from “having obtained (for) Himself eternal redemption” (Heb. 9:12, above), he told His disciples, “Handle Me and see…” Luke 24:39 By that time, atonement had been made “for Himself and for His household.” Lev. 16:17, above. "

 

 

`...knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin ONCE FOR ALL; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. ` (Rom. 6: 9 & 10)

`now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight..` (Col. 1: 21 & 22) 

But this Man, after He had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God..` (Heb. 10: 12)

`who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live to righteousness..` (1 Peter 2: 24)