Who is the Man Child in Revelation 12?

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Some believers were in heaven in John's day. The believers in heavenly places with Him are in glory so they can be seen as being clothed with the sun etc

This is not what we have in scripture...they were given white linen...they were clothed in white linen...some we learned because they were beheaded for the Gospel they were given the white linen..

There various situations where the believers were clothed in white linen...but no where it said that they were clothed with the Sun...

Your thought is kind but it is not the truth in scripture. 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

It will be long after Jesus was born that the tribulation starts and the Jews in Jerusalem area have to flee and will be helped by God as they do so.

It was not too long after Jesus was ascended that the persecution of the believers had began surely soon after the day of Pentecost ...Peter and others were threatened...

James was beheaded and Stephen was stoned to death and Peter was put to prison...

And they were not the only ones...

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

 

Israel has had many believers come from it, such as the apostles and the tribulation saints (new believers from that time) etc

 

2 hours ago, dad2 said:

Only Jesus will rule with a rod of iron and He will do so with us believers.

The issue at hand is not how Jesus will rule or Poimeno the Nations but who is the one whom God appointed to rule the Nations. 

How he is going to rule the nations it is a related issue. 

It is Jesus Christ who was appointed by God to rule the nations with an Iron rod..or Poimeno...in reference to poimeno over his own sheep or to rule over his own sheep or to make him the Lord over the  sheep of God...

This is the issue at hand...God only sat Jesus on his Throne and on his right and he appointed Jesus among other to be the Ruler over the Nations of the world.  

Jesus is the only one God gave him his own Throne...

How and in what manner and the very specific he is doing that it is another issue...

In Revelation 12: 1,2 the one to be born from the woman who is appointed to rule the nations of the world with the rod of Iron can only apply to Jesus Christ the one who came from God and in due time he was taken by God in Heaven. This can only apply to Jesus Christ...without him having been taken in Heaven by God...the one who came from God and did not needed forgiveness of sins and he had the Life ...to him to one person to one individual the one who had the preeminence over all things, the first in all things..to the only one God gave his own Throne and made him the ruler over all and made him the  ruler of all the Nations of the world...God gave all this to the man Jesus Christ his Son and not to any Angel because is Jesus is the one who shed his blood on the Cross and with his death on the Cross THE ACROBISTIA ON THE GENTILES WAS LIFTED UP

And we have the Gentiles without the acrobistia...the Gentiles in their sins just like after the Cross we have the Jews in their Sins. And both need to believe in Jesus Christ to have forgiveness of their sins in his blood..

How Jesus rules the world is another issue...

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is not what we have in scripture...they were given white linen...they were clothed in white linen...some we learned because they were beheaded for the Gospel they were given the white linen..

Who is 'they'? One group mentioned in one verse?? Ha. How about Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus, do they count? How about all the dead in Christ that died before John was an old man and wrote revelations? We do go to be where He is when we die you do you know that? So heaven was full of believers who had died. The particular tribulation martyr group in one verse is not all of the folks in heaven!

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

There various situations where the believers were clothed in white linen...but no where it said that they were clothed with the Sun...

No one said the woman was just that group of believers either. Obviously.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Your thought is kind but it is not the truth in scripture. 

Sorry to have had to correct your mispeaking here.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

It was not too long after Jesus was ascended that the persecution of the believers had began surely soon after the day of Pentecost ...Peter and others were threatened...

So what? That was not the Great Tribulation when the woman flees to the wilderness.

 

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

James was beheaded and Stephen was stoned to death and Peter was put to prison...

And they were not the only ones...

We all know that. The trick here is that the woman fleeing is not about that.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

The issue at hand is not how Jesus will rule or Poimeno the Nations but who is the one whom God appointed to rule the Nations. 

I see no issue. WE shall rule with Him, period. The 'we' includes the saved Jews. (but does not exclude the church or other believers)

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

How he is going to rule the nations it is a related issue. 

It is Jesus Christ who was appointed by God to rule the nations with an Iron rod..or Poimeno...in reference to poimeno over his own sheep or to rule over his own sheep or to make him the Lord over the  sheep of God...

Over all the earth actually. All kingdoms. And we will rule with Him.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is the issue at hand...God only sat Jesus on his Throne and on his right and he appointed Jesus among other to be the Ruler over the Nations of the world.  

What issue do you see with the obvious?

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus is the only one God gave him his own Throne...

How and in what manner and the very specific he is doing that it is another issue...

We rule with Him.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Quote

In Revelation 12: 1,2 the one to be born from the woman who is appointed to rule the nations of the world with the rod of Iron can only apply to Jesus Christ the one who came from God and in due time he was taken by God in Heaven.

Right, Jesus will rule and we will be right there ruling with Him. He rules after He returns. With us.

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

And we have the Gentiles without the acrobistia...the Gentiles in their sins just like after the Cross we have the Jews in their Sins. And both need to believe in Jesus Christ to have forgiveness of their sins in his blood..

How Jesus rules the world is another issue...

I see no issue. Jesus will rule with us, period.

[Your closest friendnt]

22 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

However, we are the body of Christ. So if the heel is crushing the serpent's head, who is that?

Hello @Vine Abider

I am not pleased the way you have responded because of the following reasons...

The issue at  hand in (general and not just in Revelation 12) is not whether or not God has appointed the man-child to be born to be the one to rule the Nations of the world with an iron rod. 

Because is made clear that he is the one...

The issue raised at hand who is that child and if you figure this out we will know who will rule the nations with a rod of iron...

Another way is if we know whom God has appointed to rule or Poimeno the Nations with a rod of iron then we can know who the man-child to be born is...

 Because we live after the facts of those events we are in a privileged position to come to the right conclusion. 

This is the issue I have focus on and I did not  comment about the other issue of how the one whom God appointed to rule the nations...of How he is going to do that...

I have never said anything against about Jesus deligating some of the believers to sit on his Throne and rule the nations with him...

The only thing I said is no they are not together with Jesus when God sitted Jesus on his Throne and to his right. 

That time Jesus was alone because it happened right after his ascension and perhaps after the resurrection when Jesus said to Peter I am going to the Father...and perhaps at the time when God resurrection Jesus from the dead and in the new Covenant it was Jesus to rule the nations with a  rod of Iron...that was decided before the foundation of the earth that he will be the one...actually only he can be the one the Son of God who will die for the forgiveness of our sins..the life Giver...the one who cleansed the world from its acrobistia...

Jesus knew about that...before he was raised from the dead..he was waiting to be raised from the dead...because God had to announce him to everyone everywhere...Jesus was preaching the Gospel to those who had died before him in the place of the dead...forgiveness of sins in his blood...to everyone of all the Nations of the world...

It had happened at the time of his death...not the coronation...just like Charles is the King before his coronation.  

to Jesus was given before the foundation of the earth to Poimeno or to rule the Nations of the earth with a rod of iron. Because he will die for the forgiveness of their sins..

it actually says that God through that child will have children from all the Nations of the world...

I also address the issue as to why Jesus can be the only one and why that it had to happen after his ascension and not before...but just what I have said is not quite correct because Jesus in his great comission to his disciples speaks as if it has happened already because he is commissioning his disciples to go to all the world to  preach the Gospel and he will be with them always...

There we see how it is that his disciples are the first ones to be given their white horses and follow Jesus in his white horse and set to conqueror the Nation of the world...

And we have the Holy Spirit...Jesus said do not go anywhere wait for the Holy Spirit...

And we can understand how Jerusalem was the first to be conquer...

I am not trying to convince anyone...this not mine to do. 

[dad2]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

To your point in the Genesis 3:15 verse above I asked:

What is your answer to that? (try to keep it brief please)

 I would think that refers to how Jesus will totally defeat Satan and toss him into the lake of fire.

[Your closest friendnt]

@Vine Abider

Genesis 3.15 KJV 

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is the prophetic how the Serpent will loose his authority. The authority to take everyone by default at the time of their death...

(This excludes Abraham and his chosen descendants after him because they were the Nation of God and God had given them their own Inheritance after their death..they were his people not only when the lived but also after they died...they were still alive to God)

This is happened with Jesus Christ death on the Cross..

The Serpent had to bruise the heal of Jesus he had to bite him on the heal and put him to death...in simple words Jesus must die first..

The seed of the woman has to die...it won't happened before but after he died..

This is why Jesus said...if I do not die nothing will accomplish. 

This is why Jesus said I have the Keys of Death and Hades...

Jesus had to die so he can go to the place of the dead...for many reasons...

The fact is the Death and Hades lost their default authority to take everyone in the world who died...Jesus Christ now decides the fate of every one who dies...

Jesus also having the Keys of Hades when he was at the place of the dead...he opened the Gates of Hades and let the people kept their free..

Those who did not believe in his Gospel and remained in their sins Jesus put them back there and lock the Gates...he has the key...

The Devil only gets whom ever Jesus Christ gives him...

This is why Jesus said all authority has been given unto me...everywhere..

In the seed of the woman no man is involved...because the child to be born is the from God...

The woman was drenched in the Sun because she was about to give birth to the Son of God....

The glow of the Sun it was coming from within because she carried the Son of God and from without because God had made it to happen.  

 

[Vine Abider]

On 5/2/2023 at 2:57 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

@Vine Abider

Genesis 3.15 KJV  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

 

Genesis 3:15 is a great verse to start with!  Let's then look at these verses:

"And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly."  Romans 6:20

"The body is one and has many members . . . so also is Christ" 1 Cor 12:12 

"Saul!  Saul!  Why are you persecuting Me? . . . I am Jesus who you are persecuting" Acts 9:4-5

"God . . . was pleased to reveal His Son in Me." Gal 1:15-16

"Christ in you, the hope of glory."  Col 1:27

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb." Rev 12:11

"The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne" Rev 3:21

Then we have this passage in Hebrews 2 where the author speaks about man and his lofty position in God's administration and purpose.  Obviously it is also speaking about Christ, but it is Christ as related to mankind. Christ is bringing many sons (His brothers) to glory!  

“'What is man, that you are mindful of him,

or the son of man, that you care for him?

 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;

you have crowned him with glory and honor,1

 putting everything in subjection under his feet.'”

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering."  Hebrews 2:5:10

My commentary on these verses: The man-child in Revelation 12 is man, but overcoming men with Christ in them.  Jesus was the Son of Man.  Man has a high purpose of dominion in God's administration.  Christ came to restore that purpose, that is, the dominion of man - He will fulfil that purpose IN US - we are His "boots on the ground" so to speak . . . as Paul says in Romans 6:20, "The God of peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet shortly."  He does this by getting into His believers and transforming us into the image of the perfect Son of Man.

This is why Jesus says we will sit with Him on His throne in Revelation 3:21.  This is why it says in Revelation 12, "And THEY overcame him by the blood of the Lamb."

[dad2]

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    The Devil only gets whom ever Jesus Christ gives him...

 

No. People reject God and end up the only other place possible. Jesus is not offering Satan souls. Ridiculous.

 

   

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    This is why Jesus said all authority has been given unto me...everywhere..

 

The reason you cite is made up. Yes He has authority, no, not because He randomly throws people or destines people to hell.

 

 

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    The woman was drenched in the Sun because she was about to give birth to the Son of God....

How does that work, people giving birth are drenched in sun?? So do they tap dance on the moon also?? Your opinion is something you should support here rather than stating as some sort of fact.

 

    

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    The glow of the Sun it was coming from within because she carried the Son of God and from without because God had made it to happen.  

So she was not in heaven then? How about the moon, how was that doing in a belly?

Edited May 10, 2023 by dad2

[dad2]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

My commentary on these verses: The man-child in Revelation 12 is man, but overcoming men with Christ in them.

 

The woman was in heaven. So by your reasoning it had to be men in heaven?

[WilliamL]

On 4/28/2023 at 5:24 AM, Feedmysheep said:

The man-child in Revelation 12 is not the individual Jesus alone. He is a corporate Jesus as a collective. The man-child is a group of overcoming saints of God who are in Paradise and are resurrected and raptured at least 1,260 days before the close of the church age.

If you say the man-child is Jesus Christ, this is not untrue. But it is not adaquate because he is Jesus Christ WROUGHT into a group of humans. 

The man-child is a remnant of the whole Body of believers. Think of Gideon's small army of 300 who fought the battle on behalf of the weaker yet majority of the nation. The man-child is of the same principle - a minority and remnant within the whole who are entrusted to fight the spiritual battle for God.

Now don't let me get away too easy. Where are the Berean types who examine the scriptures to see if these things are so?

The general gist of this is correct, but plenty of difficulties in the details. Such as them being raptured those 1260 days early. Or that they are a remnant; rather, they will be  Christ's chief disciples/ministers of the resurrection age.

[WilliamL]

On 5/2/2023 at 3:22 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

The issue raised at hand who is that child and if you figure this out we will know who will rule the nations with a rod of iron...

Rev. 2:26 "And the one overcoming, and keeping My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 27  - ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—as I also have received from My Father..."