rapture?

[BibleWords]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:19 PM, Revelation Man said:

Everything, including all of the timing tells point toward a Pre Trib Rapture. We are seen returning with Jesus in Rev. 19, we are seen in heaven in Rev. 4:4 & 5:9-10 before the Seals are opened. So, even the timing tells show it has to be pre trib.

Then we get the analogies Paul gives us about the two different callings of Israel and the Church in Romans 9-11 and we the analogies Jesus gave us via the his Bride and a Jewish Bride. Finally we get God 7 Feasts which point us towards a coming Messianic figure who will fulfill all 7 Feasts Israel practiced, not even understanding it themselves, they were called Holy Convocations (Dress Rehearsals) and every Feast will become a part of history, as fulfilled by Jesus, and the LAST TRUMP can only be fulfilled by Jesus, just like he fulfilled the Spring Feasts, and is currently fulfilling the Summer Harvest, he will fulfill the Fall Feasts also. I will go in reverse order.

Spring Feasts Jesus fulfilled

1.) Passover (Jesus died at exactly 3:00 PM, his blood covers us)

2.) Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin, or was Unleavened)

3.) First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave/Jesus rose)

Summer Harvest/Church Age/Pentecost

4..) Feast of Weeks (Jesus is fulfilling the Harvest of Souls, all alone on the calendar unto itself, as are the Gentiles calling, he is the head or our High Priest in Heaven as w speak. We are indeed harvesting souls for God. But the harvest season always ended via the Feast of Trumps. The reason Jesus told us we could not know the day nor the hour is because Israel were on a Lunar Calendar, or as I like to say on "God time". On a lunar calendar everything goes by when the new moon comes in, not a 12:00 AM clock. So, no one knew the exact day nor hour that the new moon and hence the New Year would come in. They did however know within a 2 or 3 day period, of course, so they sent up two men into the hills to spy out exactly when the new moon and thus the New Year came in every years (very important). The two men then send word back to the Israeli leaders, who then command the Trumps (Shofar) to be blown in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times. Then on the "LAST TRUMP" it blew longer & louder than the other 99 and officially ended the Harvest (think Church Age, think Rev. 4:1) 

Fall Feasts yet to be fulfilled

5.) Feast of Trumps (explained above because they need to be tied in together to understand that the Feast of Trumps always ended the Harvest. So, Jesus in Rev. 4:1 ends the Church Age Harvest)

6.) Feast of Atonement ( Who must needs atone before the 70th week can come to pass? Israel, and we are shown they do so in Zech. 13:8-9. They atone via Jesus' blood, whom they finally accept as their Messiah, thus Jesus' blood fulfills this also)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to TABERNACLE simply means to DWELL with God. Jesus is God right? So, Jesus will Dwell with Israel as he rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years, thus Jesus fulfills this Feast and all 7 Feasts were merely Israel keeping the 7 Feasts which foretold the whole history of the world, even the Gentile Church Age portion which was all alone on the calendar, the Harvest Section so to speak was led by the Gentile Church, not Israel.

God Himself gave the 7 Feasts, not Darby, and Paul wrote about the Rapture calling it a Harpazo in Greek, which got translated to Rapturo in Latin just like it later got translated to a Snatching Away in English, so the "Rapture" came from Paul, not Darby. 

Reading Romans chapters 9-11 its  obvious Paul is explaining or trying to explain why the mantle of taking the holy word (gospel) unto the whole world was taken away from Israel and given unto the Gentiles. He says does not the "Potter" chose the vessel? Did not God chose Jacob of Esau before bot were born? Hinting that the Elder (Israel) would serve the Younger (Church). But Paul says do not be puffed up Romans, the only reason God cut off Israel out of the family tree was because they lost their Faith, and likewise if you lose Faith you will be cut off also. BUT......Then he says God's "CALLINGS" are without repentance, and says that one day Israel will be grafted back into the family tree, once she understands and believes on God/Jesus, but that can ONLY HAPPEN after the "Time of the Gentiles has come full". 

Most people d not grasp this means the time of the Gentiles who take the Goodnews unto the whole world ends, they think (for some reason) that this means the Ruling Gentile Beasts, but when looking at the context of all three chapters that makes no sense at all, its about God CHOOSING a vessel. It has nothing to do with the Wicked Gentile Beast Kingdoms, who have always been more powerful in total than Israel. This time of the Gentiles means the current Church Age Mission of the Gentiles. THUS..........

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved:(Not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation is saved, so the Kingdom Age can come about) as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The IN PART simply means God never refused individuals to come unto Him (of course) but Israel as a Nation would not be called back unto SERVICE until the time of the Gentiles [Service] had ended. So, lets look at all three Time Periods of Service.

1.) Abraham listened to God and "Believed" Him. Thus he would be the Father of Jacob/Israel and they would birth the Messiah whose blood would cover the sins of the whole world. (Check)

2.) The Gentile Nations were given a directive to take the Gospel unto the ends of the world and we have been doing that for nigh 2000 years. Our time as Gentiles taking the Gospel unto the whole world has to end before Israel calling becomes fulfilled via the Kingdom Age, it even has to come to an end before Israel as a Nation can repent, Paul just stated that in Rom. 11:25, so when do Israel repent? 

Malachi 4:5 says Elijah is sent back before the DOTL to turn Israel back unto God. Zech. 13:8-9 shows 1/3 of Israel repents and 2/3 will refuse to repent and die, then the very next verse says this.

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Then in vs 2 Israel falls to the Anti-Christ, in verse 3 Jesus returns to defeat them all. So, Israel repents BEFORE the 1260 DOTL event happens. But, it goes deeper still. We get the 70 weeks of Daniel, God then calls Israel, Dead Men's Bones in Ezekiel 37, and thus Israel is nothing to God for nigh 2000 years until 1948, God forsakes them. Only when the Church Age ends can the 70th week kick in. By the way, the Jewish Bride and Groom traditionally stayed in Wedded Bliss(fathers house) for 7 days, then came the Wedding Feast (Armageddon is that Wedding Feast).

"""AUTHOR BELOW UNKOWN"""

The Wedding Pattern ties all of this together

The Lord gave Israel seven feasts in Leviticus 23. The Lord refers to the feasts as appointed times (mowed – Strong’s H4150). Mowed means an appointed time, a specific time. Our Heavenly Father knows the End from the Beginning, and the seven specific appointed times of the seven feasts give us an outline of His overall plan and I believe that some appointed times have been, and all will be literally fulfilled.

Within the Word of God is the pattern of the Church as the Bride of Christ (hereafter noted as Church) being wed to Jesus, and it is preserved to this day in the practice of the traditional Jewish wedding (hereafter noted as Jewish Wedding). This is not to say that the Church has replaced Israel in the Lord’s plan; quite the opposite. Please see Romans 11:11-18, and Romans 11:25-26.

There are two brides found in Scripture, and Rachel and Leah show us this. Please see Leah, the Bride, and Leah's Children.

When I first realized the connection between the feasts and the steps of the wedding, I was troubled by the Fall Feasts. Although "Trumpets" is a favorite feast for those of us listening for the trumpet of the Lord, I could not clearly in my mind make these feasts fit the Church. The Fall Feasts seem to point to the people Israel. Therefore, when I realized there were two different brides which would be dealt with in separate manners, the pieces seemed to fit together.

First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became spiritually adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel,

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (I Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover.

The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been literally fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

Each year at Pentecost, Jewish synagogues read the entire Book of Ruth. The story of Ruth takes place at the wheat harvest, or Pentecost. This book is a picture of the Lord Jesus and His Gentile bride. Boaz, the Jew, was the kinsman-redeemer. Jesus is our Redeemer. Ruth was a Moabitess, a Gentile. The Church is the Gentile Bride. That very day, the Day of Pentecost, Boaz redeemed Ruth. The marriage is not mentioned, only the commitment, the betrothal, is recorded. The marriage of Boaz and Ruth is noted in conclusion, but not discussed.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.

Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)

Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter two, to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - I Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (I Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church.

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. 

 

The seven days the Jewish bride and groom spend in the wedding chamber appear to equate to seven prophetic years, which parallels the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy, and is the basis for the concept of seven years of Tribulation.

The prophetic parallels between the Jewish Wedding and the Church’s Biblical Wedding are simply amazing! What a wonderful picture and wonderful hope this pattern gives to those who are saved and are the Children of God. And only the God of Creation could place this pattern within and throughout the sixty-six books of His Word. Our Heavenly Father is the ultimate Wedding Planner! May His name be praised forever!

---------------------------------

If one looks objectively the Pre Trib Rapture can be seen in patterns, if one understands the timing tells in the book of Revelation (BoR) makes understanding these things much easier the problem is most people can not discern the BoR in full.

Gotta run, I can speak to anyone about this, but way to many on the other side of this understanding want to say everyone who believes in a Pre Trib Rapture are false teachers. (in general, not all of course do this)

Totally agree. The Bible clearly, I believe, teaches a Pre-Trib rapture.

I have used the Jewish wedding example for a good while.  Even preached it.  The Jewish wedding is the perfect Bible example that God gave us of Christ and the church.

And you are correct, Darby didn’t give us the first rapture teaching, Jesus did in John 14.  Paul after that in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15

The pre-trib rapture was the belief of the first two centuries of the church before the amillennial movement took over as the dominant belief.

Post trib was the late arrival on the scene.

Great perspective.

[farouk]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:31 PM, NConly said:

Israel God the Father divorced. Juda He did not divorce. Are there two plans one for Juda and one for Israel? Or is most this refers to after they come back together as one nation?

@NConly Interesting comment; I've seen commentators describe Israel as the wife of Jehovah while the church is described as the bride of Christ.

[MichaelSnow]

11 hours ago, BibleWords said:

 

The pre-trib rapture was the belief of the first two centuries of the church before the amillennial movement took over as the dominant belief.

No, you are confusing the premillenial view of the church with the 'rapture' movement. Not the same. Some have tried to distort some early quotes, but they do not affirm the modern rapture belief.

[MichaelSnow]

11 hours ago, BibleWords said:

first rapture teaching, Jesus did in John 14.  Paul after that in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15

 

None of these are secret 'Rapture' teaching. In John, Jesus assures them he will come again. This is the Second Advent/Coming/Parousia of which Paul writes.

To get your view, you most force your preconceived notions on Scripture. If you let the word of God speak, Paul is clearly writing about the Second Coming, as standard evangelical reference works by called teachers of the Church affirm. See The Expositor's Bible Commentary, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, The New International Greek Testament Commentary, Word Biblical Commentary, International Standard Bible Encyclopedia...s.v. Thessalonians

Sit and give the text of Holy Scripture an honest reading, in CONTEXT. Here is a clear exposition. https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/

[BibleWords]

You are incorrect.  Jesus taught in John 14 about the Bridegroom coming to take His bride to the Father’s house just as was the custom in the history or Israel.  
This definitely is not the second coming where He comes in judgement.

These two comings have no similarities at all.  One is the blessed hope of the church, the other is the coming to set up His kingdom and bring judgement.

Not at all similar.

[TheBlade]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:12 AM, BibleWords said:

Totally agree. The Bible clearly, I believe, teaches a Pre-Trib rapture.

I have used the Jewish wedding example for a good while.  Even preached it.  The Jewish wedding is the perfect Bible example that God gave us of Christ and the church.

And you are correct, Darby didn’t give us the first rapture teaching, Jesus did in John 14.  Paul after that in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15

The pre-trib rapture was the belief of the first two centuries of the church before the amillennial movement took over as the dominant belief.

Post trib was the late arrival on the scene.

Great perspective.

I just about a week ago someone quoted Darby.. just so some will have to search.. do you think he believed in Pre Trib? You might be in for a shock.

I have read seen so many talk teach about Christ coming before the great tribulation 300-400ad then after then in 1600.. on and on. I watched someone quote some Greek known name ..sorry I don't remember but.. it was 3rd 4th cent and it was about Christ coming before the great tribulation. ALL this means to me is they believed it they watched for Him. Thats it. 

And amen Jewish wedding.. most never touch  that even though its not scripture but they fully would understand Christ going back to His Fathers house to make us a home. Hello Christ can't lie you can't twist that so where is Christ? Who when why... I don't know but we will be where He is and that in Heaven where He is now not Him where we are. I tend to lean to escape from whats coming.. to never see my Fathers wrath where Lot had to be gone not hiding but had to be "as long as you are here I can do nothing". Whats coming we know OT NT on the whole world all in it. 

None the less I just watch.. keep looking up.. i was not promised tomorrow so yeah its always now Hes coming ..yeah its just awful how I have to always be watching what I do say think.. always be thinking of about HIM! Is there something better?  this is me.. its what I believe

[BibleWords]

Didn’t follow all of that.  BUT:::

1.  Yes, Darby was pre-trib rapture, not that it matters.

2.  Pre-tribulation  rapture was the first two centuries end times view.

3.  Sure, Jewish wedding is Scripture.

      Think Abraham and Sarah.

       Think Isaac and Rebekah.

4.  Always thinking about Him.

      Nope, nothing better.

[NConly]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:03 PM, farouk said:

@NConly Interesting comment; I've seen commentators describe Israel as the wife of Jehovah while the church is described as the bride of Christ.

I was confused about this. Now I feel like I am not confused. The answer I  received I believe was excellent.

[farouk]

33 minutes ago, NConly said:

I was confused about this. Now I feel like I am not confused. The answer I  received I believe was excellent.

@NConly The existence of the covenant name YHVH in the Old Testament - sometimes rendered Jehovah in English - begs the question also of, With whom was the covenant made? This is Israel.

Whereas the New Testament gives plain evidence that the church is comprised of Jew and Gentile alike who truly acknowledge the Lord Jesus. This is the church.

The terms the Wife of Jehovah and the Bride of Christ respectively can be understood in this light.

[NConly]

17 hours ago, farouk said:

@NConly The existence of the covenant name YHVH in the Old Testament - sometimes rendered Jehovah in English - begs the question also of, With whom was the covenant made? This is Israel.

Whereas the New Testament gives plain evidence that the church is comprised of Jew and Gentile alike who truly acknowledge the Lord Jesus. This is the church.

The terms the Wife of Jehovah and the Bride of Christ respectively can be understood in this light.

Thank You. Now it becomes much more clear. For someone like myself a forum can be a big help to understanding what the Bible says. And sometime it is quite confusing because of several totally difference views being expressed about one subject. I  like your explanation. Thanks