The Book of John- In the Beginning

[BibleWords]

Not one of those proof texts proves a thing about a flood to destroy a first earth.

God never sent two floods to destroy the earth.  Absolutely no where in Scripture does it teach any such thing. This is a clear case of adding to the Bible what it does not say.

The reason I do not believe in a pre-Adamic  world or creation is because it is false and not taught at all in Scripture.

[HAZARD]

3 minutes ago, BibleWords said:

Not one of those proof texts proves a thing about a flood to destroy a first earth.

God never sent two floods to destroy the earth.  Absolutely no where in Scripture does it teach any such thing. This is a clear case of adding to the Bible what it does not say.

The reason I do not believe in a pre-Adamic  world or creation is because it is false and not taught at all in Scripture.

No way in the world you had time to check every scripture, if in fact you checked any.

[HAZARD]

Lucifer sins - World under Water .

 

How the earth became covered with water - Gen.1:2

 

LUCIFER'S REBELLION BEFORE ADAM AND A THIRD OF THE ANGELS GO WITH HIM by Finis Dake REBELLION AND OVERTHROW OF THE FIRST SOCIAL SYSTEM (Gen 1:2; Isa 14:12-14; Jer 4:23-26; Ezek 28:11-17; 2 Pet 3:5-6) Part Two IV. ISAIAH'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD In Isa. 14:12-14 we have conclusive proof that Lucifer ruled the Earth before the days of Adam. It could not have been since Adam that he ruled and fell from Heaven as in this passage, for he was already a fallen creature before Adam was created. In Adam's day he regained dominion of the Earth and has been the prince of this world ever since. In this passage both Satan and the king of Babylon are in view. This is what is known as the law of double reference, that is, a visible person is immediately addressed while at the same time an invisible person who is using the visible person as a tool to hinder the plan of God is also addressed. For example, when Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou art an offense to me: for thou sayest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt.16:23), He did not mean that Peter was the personal devil, but that he was being used as a tool of Satan to keep Christ from getting to the cross. Hence, both Peter and Satan are addressed and involved in the statement. To understand such passages, one should understand that part of the passage that can refer to an earthly person as referring to a man, and that part that cannot possibly refer to an earthly person as referring to the invisible person also addressed. In Isa.14:12-14 we have some statements which cannot possibly be made of an earthly king of Babylon. The passage is universally accepted as referring to the fall of Satan. We shall quote it and then note the facts: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ascend into heaven, I WILL exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Note the following facts this passage proves of Satan: 1. That his name is Lucifer. 2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man. 3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18). 4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall. 5. That he had weakened nations on Earth. 6. That he was exalted in his heart. 7. That he invaded Heaven, where God rules. 8. That he was a king, for he had a throne and subjects over whom he ruled. 9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God. 10. That he wanted to be worshipped in the congregation (Ps.72:1; 82:1; Isa. 6:1). 11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated. 12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth, for one can stand on certain parts of the Earth and still be above clouds. 13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created. 14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. He had no kingdom on Earth at the time of Adam and has not had since in the sense of a visible, personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam. 15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them. 16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Ps. 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam. In Col.1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were all destroyed when the flood of Gen.1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Is.45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passage.... Thus Isaiah teaches that the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whose kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled. V. EZEKIEL'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD In Ezek.28:11-17 we have another description of Lucifer before he fell and of his position on Earth and the cause of his rebellion. This passage is another example of the law of double reference, as explained in Point IV above. The earthly man addressed was the king of Tyre. (See Josephus, Apion Book 1, 21). Let us also quote this passage and then note the main facts concerning Satan. "Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering .... the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou has walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou has defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of them that behold thee" (Ezek.28:11-19). Note the following facts this passage proves of Satan: 1. That he was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 2. That he had been in Eden, THE GARDEN OF GOD, not a mere summer residence of some earthly king of Tyre, but the garden of God as referred to in other passages (Isa.51:3; Ezek.31:9,16,18; 36:35; Joel 2:3). This Eden, however, was the one that was on the original Earth before Adam, for "every precious stone" was not the covering of Satan, nor was he perfect and sinless and the ruling cherub when he was in Adam's Eden. It was the garden that God made as the location of Lucifer's kingdom as pictured in this whole passage. 3. That he was the ruler of this Eden, for at that time "every precious stone was thy covering . . . . Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth [protecteth]; and I have set thee so . . . Thou wast perfect in thy ways." This must refer to the time Lucifer fell, and that had to be before Adam and the Eden that man was given dominion over. 4. That he was a created being; so it could only refer to Satan. 5. That he was the anointed cherub (angel) that protected or ruled the Earth. 6. That God had placed him in this position. 7. That every precious stone was his covering. 8. That his position was upon the holy mountain of God and that he walked up and down in the midst of precious stones of fire. 9. That he was perfect in his ways from his creation until he exalted himself, as in this passage and in Isa.14:12-14; 1 Tim. 3:6. 10. That he was created a perfect, sinless angel. 11. That he became a sinner through pride (1 Tim.3:6). 12. That his beauty was the cause of his pride. 13. That sin was found in him. 14. That he became filled with violence by his "merchandise" (Hebrew, traffic, as in verse 18, that is, going about as a slanderer in a moral sense. He began to accuse God and get others to rebel with him). 15. That he was cast out of the mountain of God in the garden where he had his throne and was driven out of his position and glory. 16. That his wisdom was corrupted. 17. That he was cast down to the ground, as in Isa.14:12-14; Luke 10:18. This will also be done in the future tribulation when he will be on Earth .... and then will be put in the abyss at the second coming of Christ (Rev. 12:3-14; 19:11-20:3). In the Hebrew such statements as "I will cast thee as profane" and "I will cast thee to the ground" are literally, "I profaned thee" and "I did cast thee to the ground." They must be understood in the past tense to harmonize with the rest of the passage, thus proving that this could not be the then - reigning king of Tyre. It could only refer to Lucifer, as in Isa.14:12-14; Luke 10:18. If this be true, then there were "kings" (probably spirit angel kings or governors over certain functions on the earth at the time of Lucifer's rebellion - Keith Hunt) on the Earth that beheld him when he landed on the ground and before God totally destroyed everything by the flood of Gen.1:2 18. That he had sanctuaries (a sanctuary, according to many ancient manuscripts), which he defiled by his iniquities and slander. This suggests a long and bitter feud between God and Satan before God took action to remove him from his position and curse the Earth. Satan was bitter in his slander of God and no doubt accused God of being tyrannical and unjust in all His rule over ... agents. He no doubt accused God of all the things that he still accuses Him of ... God was longsuffering; but when the final invasion of Heaven took place, God quickly put down the rebellion. 19. That Lucifer was brought down to utter defeat and humiliation to the Earth. The fire devouring Satan and bringing him to ashes on the Earth is a figurative statement of absolute defeat and humiliation. The same figure of speech is used of Abraham and other living persons who did not become literal ashes (Gen.18:27; Job 13:12; 30:19; Ps.102:9; Isa.44:20; 61:3). When we know that the passage is talking of a spirit being that cannot be burned to ashes, then we have another reason why we must conclude that the language is figurative of humiliation, the chief principle of true Bible interpretation is: TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY WHEREIN IT IS AT ALL POSSIBLE. WHEN THE LANGUAGE CANNOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY, THEN WE KNOW IT IS FIGURATIVE. Since we know that the language cannot be literally true of a spirit being, then it must taken in a figurative sense. If the language is literal, then this part of the double reference refers to the king of Tyre who is the visible person addressed. The other statements above could be used only of an angel, for no king of Tyre ever was a cherub, a created being; and not one of them ever was in Eden, as stated of this created being in Ezekiel 28:11-17. No such king ever was a "cherub that covereth." The Hebrew word for covereth is 'sakak,' meaning to entwine, fence in, protect, defend, or hedge in, thus showing that Lucifer had a responsibility in protecting and ruling over the Eden and mountain of God in this passage. The Hebrew phrase 'har ha' Elohim' occurs seven times in Scripture and always of a literal earthly mountain, thus proving Lucifer's rule for God was on Earth and on a mountain that God had established as the capital of the Earth when He gave Lucifer dominion to rule for God (Ex.3:1; 4:27; 18:5; 24:13; 1 Kings 19:8; Ps.69:15; Ezek.28:16). See also passages where 'par Jehovah,' the mount of the Lord, is found, which also is used seven times of an earthly mountain (Gen.22:14; Num.10:33; Ps.24:3; Isa.2:3; 30:29; Micah 4:2; Zech. 8:3). 20. That these facts could refer only to Satan before the days of Adam, for he did not have this position when Adam was created, nor could these facts be true of him on the Earth since he regained dominion of the Earth through Adam. Ezekiel, therefore, teaches that Lucifer had a kingdom on Earth .... ............ In this section Drake tries to use Jeremiah 4:23-27, to prove a the same as Isaiah and Ezekiel, but this passage has nothing at all to do with the "world before Adam" - it is only a vision that Jeremiah had of the coming desolation and captivity of the house of Judah. So I leave all this out of the study.

[grahampaul]

26 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

There were two great floods on the Earth, 1. we shall call Lucifer's flood brought upon the Earth because of Lucifer's rebellion, and 2. Noah's flood caused by the rebellion of man. Many Scriptures show there was a great difference between them, all we need do is read every one and believe what we read.

 

The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifer's rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.

Lucifer's flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.

Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.

Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??

Noah's flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifer's flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

The original creations of God include the heavens and the Earth and all things therein as first brought into being. This period is summed up in Gen. 1:1. thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth." This refers to the dateless past, and takes in only a part of the creative ages, that is, from the beginning of creation until the chaotic period of Gen. 1:2 when the Earth and its first inhabitants were destroyed by the first flood. Notice during Noah's flood not all inhabitants , vegetation, animals, day, night were destroyed.

There are many other passages in Scripture that refer to that period (Job. 38; Ps. 8:3-8; 19:1-6; Prov. 8:22-31; John 1:3,10; Acts 17:24-26; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-12; 11:3; Rev. 4:11).

Rev. 4:11).

In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation-which is also true of the two universal floods (Genesis 6:8-8:22; Exodus 10:21-23; Isaiah 5:30; Jeremiah 4:23-26).

All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 8:12; Rev. 9:2; Rev. 16:10; Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20).

Could we say that Genesis 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn't an option, then Genesis 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood.

No one questions that Noah's flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Genesis 1:2?

thats about the way i see it.

[HAZARD]

3 minutes ago, grahampaul said:

thats about the way i see it.

Many simply refuse to see it or believe it because it goes against their pet theories. 

[kwikphilly]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I meant this to be a study of John. I was referencing this from David Guzik in chapter one and his interpretation. ii. “In the first creation, ‘darkness was upon the face of the deep’ (Genesis 1:2) until God called light into being, so the new creation involves the banishing of spiritual darkness by the light which shines in the Word.” (Bruce)

In other words, I was trying to get a feel for his doctrines from the get-go, such as old Earth vs. new Earth. But, thus far, it is excellent and worth reading and discussing. I do not think I have ever heard of him before.

I got that and I understood what you meant- as you can see what a simple little" whaddya think" turns into around here-

I appreciate you saying you meant to stay on Topic and that shoulda been that-unfortunately.......

I suppose anything that does not stir controversy does not get much attention.I dunno Brother,I actually started this Study with one person in mind,someone who only just started reading the Bible and seeking Jesus in hopes they  might  Receive     

With love in Christ,Kwik

[grahampaul]

29 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

I got that and I understood what you meant- as you can see what a simple little" whaddya think" turns into around here-

I appreciate you saying you meant to stay on Topic and that shoulda been that-unfortunately.......

I suppose anything that does not stir controversy does not get much attention.I dunno Brother,I actually started this Study with one person in mind,someone who only just started reading the Bible and seeking Jesus in hopes they  might  Receive     

With love in Christ,Kwik

you are right kwik, of topic.jumped into the op at end of stead of doing a recap.silly me.

[kwikphilly]

16 minutes ago, grahampaul said:

you are right kwik, of topic.jumped into the op at end of stead of doing a recap.silly me.

Lol- Still,nice to see you Brother

Be Blessed ❤️

[Dennis1209]

10 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

I got that and I understood what you meant- as you can see what a simple little" whaddya think" turns into around here-

I appreciate you saying you meant to stay on Topic and that shoulda been that-unfortunately.......

I suppose anything that does not stir controversy does not get much attention.I dunno Brother,I actually started this Study with one person in mind,someone who only just started reading the Bible and seeking Jesus in hopes they  might  Receive     

With love in Christ,Kwik

My apologies. Starting the topic with another person in mind is a wonderful idea. I wish I had known and would have kept my frequent flier mile yapper out of the conversation. I will bow out; carry on. 😊

[BibleWords]

I will let this thread go for the sake of everyone.  But I have always called out false doctrine. 
Hard to teach truth without exposing heresy.

In Christ,  BibleWords