Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

[BibleWords]

Fair enough.

[Arial]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

I did provide examples, brother.  Do read the whole post.

I can add another example.  In the face of those who believe we are not saved yet.. but in the process of being saved...they would use this reference;

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness(C) to those who are perishing,(D) but to us who are being saved(E) it is the power of God.(F)  NIV

I would rely on the KJV to not only have the right words but how in context, God is pleased to save those that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.  KJV

Then you have a bunch of self proclaimed Greek scholars claiming that the KJV has it wrong and that it does mean "are being saved".  They go to the preaching of the cross as if that preaching is a present participle refers to a form of the verb in English that expresses an action that is taking place at the moment (or in the present) rather than the subject of the preaching of the cross to justify having "are being saved" in that modern bible version.

And yet although they agree with we are saved, those that use that verse out of context for that false teaching are supported by those who oppose the KJV and a few modern bibles for having it as "are saved".  It is annoying, but there it is.

@FreeGrace

What is your take on 1 Corinthians 1:18 per your level of knowledge in the Greek?  Is it "are being saved" or is it "are saved"?

 

I never had any problem understanding what those verses were saying in either the NIV, NKJ, ESV or NAB. If someone takes them to mean that we are not saved now but are in the process of being saved, it is because they have not gotten the message correctly in the scriptures that clearly say otherwise. Or they simply ignore the contradictions and believe what they want to.

But let's look at 2 Tim 2:15 in the KJV and other versions. Timothy is being encouraged to be a workman approved. Workman is ergates, referring back to verses 5 and 6. It is used elsewhere as field workers, laborers, etc. who should not be ashamed and rightly dividing the word of truth. It is the KJV that translates the word dividing. The Greek is orthotomeo Strong's defines it as to cut straight, to cut straight ways, proceed in straight paths, hold a straight course, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly. There is no reason to translate it rightly dividing, unless that phrase had a different meaning in 1611. And it could, and probably has, caused the deception that the word can and should be divided.

NIV 

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

ESV 

 

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

NASB

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

 

@FreeGrace

What is your take on 1 Corinthians 1:18 per your level of knowledge in the Greek?  Is it "are being saved" or is it "are saved"?

New International Version
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

English Standard Version
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Berean Standard Bible
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Berean Literal Bible
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those indeed perishing, but to us being saved it is the power of God.
New American Standard Bible
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

King James Bible
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I guess the KJV translators may not have been very familiar with the 3 tenses of salvation.

Past tense salvation:  we HAVE BEEN SAVED from the penalty of sin.  Justification

Present tense salvation:  we ARE BEING SAVED from the power of sin.  Sanctification

Future tense salvation:  we WILL BE SAVED from the presence of sin.  Glorification

It is clear from John 5:24 that the MOMENT one believes, they present tense POSSESS eternal life, and John 10:28 says that those Jesus gives eternal life to shall NEVER PERISH.

So, from the moment of saving faith in Christ, the person cannot perish.  They are eternally saved.

So I would say the verse is referring to sanctification.

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, Arial said:

Reading translations other than the KJV is not the reason tongue speakers believe tongues are active today, private and public. That would assume that not a one of them uses the KJV. And though they are not rightly dividing the word of God, it has nothing to do with the translation they are using.

They have come under the spell of a false teaching that offers them more than what Jesus gives and does. It offers them the desires of their flesh but are deceived into believing that all that emotion and feeling of superior spirituality, and manifestations, is the Holy Spirit. They do not know who the Holy Spirit is according to scripture, or what He does. They have completely divorced Him from His word. And His word is truth. John 17.

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, brings one to repentance through faith in the person and work of Christ, seals them in Him, teaches, advocates for, gives understanding to the word and through it sanctifies. He is always and forever glorifying Christ. He does not speak in tongues or baptize or fill people with tongues. His presence was manifested as languages glorifying God, that people who spoke that language understood. It was necessary when the church was birthed and in its earliest beginnings. To make visible the beginning of this new age, to communicate this in the various languages of those who were present so all would hear and as the gospel spread to places of various languages, and to show that this same salvation came to Gentiles and not only Jews.

Signs and wonders and miracles also were given at that time as a verification of the authority of the apostles, that they spoke for God and God's truth. We do not need those things any longer. We have it all between the pages of our Bible.

That is why these things are no longer active in the church, not because someone is reading a translation other than the KJV. The tongue speakers use those scriptures you put forth as support for their actions, and the KJV would not stop them from doing so.

 

Well only God can cause the increase but Romans 8:26-27 in the KJV and a few other Bible versions has it as the truth in aligning with John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself to even utter His own groanings when He does make intercessions for us.

It is like this; the lost books are not in the Bible because they run contrary to the accepted scripture in that Bible.

Those that speak against the KJV will say that KJV is a good Bible but they prefer a more modern one, an easier to understand Bible.  Then they say that not all modern Bibles are saying the same thing and then hype going to the Greek & Hebrew to find the true message.  Then you may come across contentions between these Greek scholars in how the Greek grammar is different from today's Greek, not to mention when translating into the English in how we use English Grammar today.

The initial point is... scripture cannot go against scripture and this is why the lost books are not in the Bible.  So when the modern Bibles are not all saying the same thing as in keeping the message of truth within that Bible version, is why one should lean on Him for the process of elimination in finding how the KJV keeps the truth as aligned in that same Bible version in reproving the works of darkness whereas all other modern Bibles do not within their respective Bibles.

As for NIV, NASB, ESV, and Living Word, John 16:13 testifies that the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself but speak only what He hears and so when those modern bibles testify that groans are being uttered while He is making these intercessions, is not aligning with the truth of John 16:13 in that modern Bible version but the KJV does when the Holy Spirit cannot utter His groanings out loud.

Now "wordless groans" from the NIV of Romans 8:26 testifies that the Holy Spirit is uttering His groanings and so tongue speakers will use that for proving private use.  Romans 8:27 in the NIV made a grammatical error by switching out the "he" with "the Spirit" at the end of that verse, but it cannot be.  Since the "he" is separate from us in searching our hearts then this same "he" has to be separate from the Spirit to know the mind of as it is this "he" that makes intercessions for the saints in according to the will of God of there being only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus per 1 Timothy 2:5.

Jesus Christ is the only One that can present our intercessions, the Holy Spirit's silent intercessions as well as His own intercessions to the Father because when the Father says yes to any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.  John 14:13-14 

This is why the Father knows before we, ourselves, ask anything in prayer per Matthew 6:7-8.

Anyway, Jesus did warn that there will be those that did not love Him to keep His words as this was a warning from the Father per John 14:23-24 and that as He would be persecuted, so will they do to his disciples in not keeping their words in John 15:20.

So Jesus prophesied for why we should discern with Him in proving which Bible version to rely on for the meat of His words.

But these are the latter days and so I leave that to Jesus to confirm the word here for the importance of relying on Him by use of the KJV in defending the faith which is the good fight.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. 13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Because of all those modern bibles, and because of that modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. believers are having a hard time hearing His words even when reading the KJV because they keep applying the words in other modern bibles to doubt the meat in the KJV..

[ChristB4us]

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

New International Version
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

English Standard Version
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Berean Standard Bible
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Berean Literal Bible
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those indeed perishing, but to us being saved it is the power of God.
New American Standard Bible
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

King James Bible
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I guess the KJV translators may not have been very familiar with the 3 tenses of salvation.

Past tense salvation:  we HAVE BEEN SAVED from the penalty of sin.  Justification

Present tense salvation:  we ARE BEING SAVED from the power of sin.  Sanctification

Future tense salvation:  we WILL BE SAVED from the presence of sin.  Glorification

It is clear from John 5:24 that the MOMENT one believes, they present tense POSSESS eternal life, and John 10:28 says that those Jesus gives eternal life to shall NEVER PERISH.

So, from the moment of saving faith in Christ, the person cannot perish.  They are eternally saved.

So I would say the verse is referring to sanctification.

As a result of believing the preaching of the cross?  In the context of the message, we are saved for believing in Him as God is pleased to save those that believe; past tense in verse 21.

The KJV translators of being over 50 of them divided into 8 groups and checking each other's work and then pass it to the other group to check their work, not likely that they overlooked something.

Thanks for participating.  We agree to disagree.

[Arial]

21 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Well only God can cause the increase but Romans 8:26-27 in the KJV and a few other Bible versions has it as the truth in aligning with John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself to even utter His own groanings when He does make intercessions for us.

ESV Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And He who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

KJV Likewise the Spirit also helpeth or infirmities: for we know not what we should pray as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. ANd He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

They are both saying the same thing. I am not disagreeing with you that the Spirit speaks in complete agreement with the Father and the Son. And I am not disagreeing with you that this scripture is misused by charismatics as a most of the scriptures that speak of praying in the Spirit and walking in the spirit and a completely made up baptism of the Holy Spirit that they consider as an additional thing to being filled with the Holy Spirit at the new birth and is evidenced in tongues. I simply don't know what the differing translations have to do with it.

 

[Arial]

28 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Those that speak against the KJV will say that KJV is a good Bible but they prefer a more modern one, an easier to understand Bible.  Then they say that not all modern Bibles are saying the same thing and then hype going to the Greek & Hebrew to find the true message.  Then you may come across contentions between these Greek scholars in how the Greek grammar is different from today's Greek, not to mention when translating into the English in how we use English Grammar today.

"They" covers a lot of territory. I have found from being on forums where non Christians are allowed such as unitarians and those who do not believe in justification by faith alone, gnostics,

and those way off the ledge into their own religion, do what you say above. And they do it in an attempt to disprove Christian doctrine and support their own. I have found that in all the comparisons I have made (and the ones that have been shown me) where the wording is changed, or words are translated differently, in different translations, that the message has not been changed. Sometimes it is made more precise or clear, sometimes I simply prefer the wording of one over the other. 

40 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

As for NIV, NASB, ESV, and Living Word, John 16:13 testifies that the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself but speak only what He hears and so when those modern bibles testify that groans are being uttered while He is making these intercessions, is not aligning with the truth of John 16:13 in that modern Bible version but the KJV does when the Holy Spirit cannot utter His groanings out loud.

Not so. Why interpret what is translated groans or groaning as the Holy Spirit as speaking or as being out loud or silent. I think you are trying to use a scripture to prove something that it isn't even dealing with. Or possibly making a mountain out of a molehill. 

 

46 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Now "wordless groans" from the NIV of Romans 8:26 testifies that the Holy Spirit is uttering His groanings and so tongue speakers will use that for proving private use.  Romans 8:27 in the NIV made a grammatical error by switching out the "he" with "the Spirit" at the end of that verse, but it cannot be.  Since the "he" is separate from us in searching our hearts then this same "he" has to be separate from the Spirit to know the mind of as it is this "he" that makes intercessions for the saints in according to the will of God of there being only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus per 1 Timothy 2:5.

Arial: Huh? (This formatting is paying games with itself.)

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

As a result of believing the preaching of the cross?  In the context of the message, we are saved for believing in Him as God is pleased to save those that believe; past tense in verse 21.

The KJV translators of being over 50 of them divided into 8 groups and checking each other's work and then pass it to the other group to check their work, not likely that they overlooked something.

Thanks for participating.  We agree to disagree.

"are being saved" is a present participle.  We are being held by the power of Christ who saves us.  So we are literally being saved.  An on-going present.

There is no time when one who has believed isn't being saved.

And the 3 tenses of salvation are still fact.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Arial said:

They are both saying the same thing. I am not disagreeing with you that the Spirit speaks in complete agreement with the Father and the Son. And I am not disagreeing with you that this scripture is misused by charismatics as a most of the scriptures that speak of praying in the Spirit and walking in the spirit and a completely made up baptism of the Holy Spirit that they consider as an additional thing to being filled with the Holy Spirit at the new birth and is evidenced in tongues. I simply don't know what the differing translations have to do with it.

Well, when reading plainly, tongue speakers can infer that the Holy Spirit does make sounds as He gives groanings too deep for words because it is plainly written in the ESV whereas the KJV testifies that He cannot even utter His own groanings.

ESV Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And He who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

A grammatical error is in the ESV as it switched out the "he" with "the Spirit" at the end of verse 27.  How can the "he" which is separate from us in searching our hearts and separate from the Spirit in knowing the mind of the Spirit... be "the Spirit"?

That "he" is Jesus Christ in searching our hearts per Hebrews 4:12-16 and so it is Jesus Christ that knows the mind of the Spirit to give His silent intercessions to the Father just as Jesus gives our yet unspoken prayers to the father that the Father knows before we even ask in prayer.

KJV Likewise the Spirit also helpeth or infirmities: for we know not what we should pray as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. ANd He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The other thing is why KJV uses the term itself when using he and him in other scripture, even in that same book of Romans?  It is because of verse 27 in how Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit in how His silent intercessions are given to the Father.

So the Holy Spirit is not making direct intercessions for us but indirectly for why "itself" was used as His silent intercessions are known by Jesus knowing the mind of the Spirit to give His silent intercessions to the Father.

So they are not really saying the same thing as KJV keeps in line with why Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men because He alone has to present all intercessions to the Father so when the Father agrees with any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers;  John 14:13-14 

That is why the Holy Spirit gives all the credit & glory to Jesus Christ for the ministry and answers to prayer John 16:13-15 as all power has been given to the Son per Matthew 28:18.

Anyway, at least you acknowledge that you do not agree with how tongue speakers uses those references even though John 16:13 says the Holy Spirit cannot utter anything as from Himself but speak what He hears as stated in all bible versions.

But they do use Romans 8:26-27 NIV and the ESV and others as proof text that the Holy Spirit does make intercessions directly Himself and utter sounds that are too deep for words to express.  Some says sighs in place of wordless groans, but they insinuate that sounds are being uttered for why because it is gibberish nonsense, they assume it is for private use that the Holy Spirit is praying when He is not.

And I agree with you that even when reading the KJV, they do not see it as saying anything different from how they read the NIV or the ESV or others, but I suspect it is because they read what they have read from other Bible versions into the KJV.

Just as you seem to not see the difference either but say the opposite.  Not sure why other than you are reading what the KJV actually says and mean into the other Bible versions when it is not really saying the same thing.

I do not know if both sides do not want to believe that there are wrong Bible versions out there thus fulfilling the prophetic warning that there will be those that do not love Jesus to keep His words nor the words of His disciples. John 14:23-24; John 15:20  Maybe it will take help from the Lord to accept the truth of that reality.

Edited April 24, 2023 by ChristB4us

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Arial said:

"They" covers a lot of territory. I have found from being on forums where non Christians are allowed such as unitarians and those who do not believe in justification by faith alone, gnostics,

and those way off the ledge into their own religion, do what you say above. And they do it in an attempt to disprove Christian doctrine and support their own. I have found that in all the comparisons I have made (and the ones that have been shown me) where the wording is changed, or words are translated differently, in different translations, that the message has not been changed. Sometimes it is made more precise or clear, sometimes I simply prefer the wording of one over the other. 

Not so. Why interpret what is translated groans or groaning as the Holy Spirit as speaking or as being out loud or silent. I think you are trying to use a scripture to prove something that it isn't even dealing with. Or possibly making a mountain out of a molehill. 

Ephesians 4:30 warns believers not to grieve the Holy Spirit and so I believe He has groanings which He would utter if He could just as He would speak His intercessions which He cannot.  He has intercessions and so He has groanings but unable to utter them.

How do you apply Luke 17:37 in the ESV?  Some apply that use of vulture and corpse to mean the bad guys are being removed, but it is not consistent with the context of that message when those left behind are being destroyed.

Luke 17:26-37 KJV VS ESV

Check the Greek word "sunago" for gathering in verse 37 and you will find it as taken with hospitality in receiving.  The Greek word "aetos" gives winglike flight and not just eagles.

That verse is another example for how the KJV is not perfect because it does not translate fully in English from the Greek words, but how they got vultures and corpses in the ESV seems like they were reading not from the Greek words at all.