Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

[Arial]

41 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Jesus talked about how in old times, they perform their oaths unto the Lord and so it was about the subject of oaths for when He said not to even swear at all which is the addition to making oaths to show the sincerity of the oath maker in finishing that oath that believers were not even to do that.

Numbers 30:2 testifies that a man has to do all that proceeds out of his mouth in performing that vow.  That means God cannot help him to do his vows when he is telling God and man that he will do it.

You get yourself in a tangle. Numbers 30 is speaking of vows made to the Lord or sworn to in His name. Such as, "As God is my  witness, I will be there tomorrow." It has nothing to do with whether or not God helps him. Man is always responsible to do His own vows as it goes to his character. Jesus is saying, not only that, don't swear by anything as making your vow trustworthy--"I swear on my mother's grave, I will be there tomorrow." Just do what you say you will do, circumstances permitting. IOW be a trustworthy person if you are asking someone to trust what you say you will do.

 

49 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Jesus talked about how in old times, they perform their oaths unto the Lord and so it was about the subject of oaths for when He said not to even swear at all which is the addition to making oaths to show the sincerity of the oath maker in finishing that oath that believers were not even to do that.

So I ask the unanswered question. How is the CEV saying differently?

 

53 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Ecclesiastes 5:4-7 warns believers under the Old Covenant not to make vows and leave them undone les God destroy the works of their hands.  That is significant because a man's vow is his own work of what he said he will do and that is why Jesus says it is evil now because believers in Jesus Christ are to be the works of His hands as we place our confidence in Him to finish His work in us to His glory.

This passage (and Eccl is wisdom literature) is directly in reference to old covenant law about swearing an oath by things that are holy. And it is an oath TO God.

Did you forget about James 5:12? "But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heavenor by earth or by any other oath, but let your 'yes' be 'yes' and 'no' be 'no', so that you may not fall under condemnation." You are making it to be about something it is not about. It is true that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith but that has nothing to do with whether or not we keep our oaths. As we grow in sanctification by the Holy Spirit through His word, we learn among many other things, that we are to walk with the simplicity of integrity. Our yes being yes and our no being no. It is the "our responsibility" side of the equation.

[Arial]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

Either they believe Jesus Christ will do it for why they follow him by faith or they are resorting to their own power in making themselves good by keeping a promise.

Keeping a promise is not making oneself good unless the individual sees it that way. We are supposed to keep our promises. Jesus doesn't keep them for us.

 

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

The CEV just brought Promise Keepers into bondage by making those promises when they should be looking to Jesus Christ to help them to be good and to do good.

It wasn't the CEV that did that. It was the fault focus of the Promise Keepers movement though their intentions were good. To restore the proper order and balance within the home that God established at creation. They set their focus on keeping promises (which first have to be made) rather than learning what it means for Christ to be head of the man and the man head of the wife/family, and Christ over all. Translations are not at fault. People are, just as all are responsible for their own misinterpretations and misapplications of any scripture in any translations. People are. Not translations. You are confusing the two.

 

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

It is either by the works of the law by keeping promises or they stand fats in that liberty and rest in Him that He will help them to be good husbands & good fathers.

Paul is speaking specifically of the Law of Moses in the old covenant. The liberty is in not needing to be circumcised or any of the old covenant law, in addition to faith to be justified. It was about the sufficiency of Christ. And husbands and fathers must learn from the word what a good husband and father is---the very reflection of God as the perfect husband and Father. And then do it. And that is not about salvation, it is about sanctification.

[ChristB4us]

3 hours ago, Arial said:

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

² Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

³ For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

⁴ Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

⁵ For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

5 Christ has set us free! This means we are really free. Now hold on to your freedom and don't ever become slaves of the Law again.

² I, Paul, promise you that Christ won't do you any good if you get circumcised. ³ If you do, you must obey the whole Law. ⁴ And if you try to please God by obeying the Law, you have cut yourself off from Christ and his gift of undeserved grace. ⁵ But the Spirit makes us sure God will accept us because of our faith in Christ.

How are they saying anything different? Perhaps you don't understand what it is the KJV is saying?

And the CEV is not so much a translation as a paraphrase. It was published by the American Bible Society with the goal of uncompromising simplicity. It is written at a fourth grade reading level, making it appropriate for children and adults with limited English skills. The translation method used was the dynamic equivalence (thought-for-thought as opposed to word-for-word.

The KJV has the term yoke of bondage in Galatians 5:1 for a reason.

Galatians 5:i Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. KJV

Numbers 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

If you do circumcision which is the smallest letter of the law and if you do that, you are entitled to do the whole law, where do you think vows & oaths fall under?  The biggest letter of the law and thus you are entitled to do the whole law.

CEV nulls and void that by the changed message in the second verse.

Galatians 5:1 Christ has set us free! This means we are really free. Now hold on to your freedom and don't ever become slaves of the Law again. 2 I, Paul, promise you that Christ won't do you any good if you get circumcised.  CEV

Like it or not, the CEV is the opposite of the KJV in what Paul was actually saying.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Arial said:

Keeping a promise is not making oneself good unless the individual sees it that way. We are supposed to keep our promises. Jesus doesn't keep them for us.

Reread verse 36 please for why Jesus doesn't help us keep our promises & yet know Whom can do those good works in us & through us by our faith in His word alone.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. KJV

CEV makes it look okay to make a promise to God but just don't swear by it.  That is not leaving it as just a yes or just a no.

Galatians 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:  7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[Arial]

18 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Reread verse 36 please for why Jesus doesn't help us keep our promises & yet know Whom can do those good works in us & through us by our faith in His word alone.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

When you make your first statement here you are combining two ideas put forth in scriptures that are not combined in these passages. That of instruction about making oaths and the danger of not keeping those oaths ("we do not know what tomorrow will bring") and making whatever we use to validate our integrity binding. The other being that it is God who does a good work in us. The second is not why Jesus is saying what He says but you make it to be.

Also because you rely solely on the KJV and its antiquated language you reach a conclusion that verse 33 is saying we are not to make oaths to God (and to God is the issue here) or any oaths or promises at all I guess. That is because the wording in the KJV says "thou shalt not forswear thyself." Which when you think about it makes no sense, that we should never make vows to God or any vows whatsoever. And if that is the case, that the KJV is correct in its wording, then all the other translations are wrong, not just the CEV.

NKJV Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord."

ESV Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'

NASB Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.'

It is more about lying or not keeping vows we make to the Lord than anything else.

And when He says what He does in verse 36  followed by 36 (Let your yes be yes and your no be no) He is simply saying why make an oath. Just do what you say you are going to do.

 

 

[JimmyB]

18 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

The KJV has the term yoke of bondage in Galatians 5:1 for a reason.

Galatians 5:i Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. KJV

Numbers 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

If you do circumcision which is the smallest letter of the law and if you do that, you are entitled to do the whole law, where do you think vows & oaths fall under?  The biggest letter of the law and thus you are entitled to do the whole law.

CEV nulls and void that by the changed message in the second verse.

Galatians 5:1 Christ has set us free! This means we are really free. Now hold on to your freedom and don't ever become slaves of the Law again. 2 I, Paul, promise you that Christ won't do you any good if you get circumcised.  CEV

Like it or not, the CEV is the opposite of the KJV in what Paul was actually saying.

Paul did not speak or write in KJV Englyshe, so your claim that what the KJV words is what Paul was saying is laughable!

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." KJV

Here is Galatians 5:1-2 from some other excellent translations...

"For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery.  Listen! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you at all!" NET

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.  Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all."  NIV

"For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.  Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that, if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you." NRSVue

It is absurd to think that these translations got it wrong, but the KJV go it "right".  This brings up the more fundamental question: why do you think that the KJV translators had perfect knowledge and that their sources were perfect?

I hate to break this to you but... the King James translation is not the word of God.  It, like all translations, is an interpretation of a collection of ancient writings.

[JimmyB]

21 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

It was the Puritans that had requested King James for that Bible version.  They were the ones that had problems with errant marginal notes in the Geneva 1599 Bible; examples were that Jesus was Michael the arch angel and rebelling against those in authority, thus alluding also to the church and not just the government. 

Be sure not to visit anti-KJV web sites as there are some claiming that King James was a homosexual and he had changed scripture, even though the scriptures reproving homosexuality are still in it.

So for this notion that the Bible expresses his version of Protestantism has to come from a prejudicial source.  Yes, he was against Catholicism, but you are not going to find any missing or changed verses in modern Bibles to prove KJV as favoring Protestantism.  Scripture just speaks against the teachings of Catholicism.

If you read the Preface to the KJV from the KJV translators, you may get a different impressions for how the KJV came about.

Can you give an example of that in minimizing any bias that supposedly the KJV has??

As for more and better sources, if the argument is the oldest manuscripts are the best manuscripts, may I point out that those who loved Him & His words would be using the documents and needing to replace them from wear and tear from use.

You have to wonder why the oldest manuscripts were still around unless set aside.

Unless you an clarify what you mean by more and better sources, I can only guess you are referring to that reason that is floating around out there on the internet as speaking against the KJV.

Can you spell "rationalization"?

You believe that the KJV is the words of God, not for any logical reason, but because it fits your personal concept of what the Bible should be.  There are others, including myself, who believe that there is no perfect translation, and that the best one is the one that speaks most clearly in our native language.

I don't know a single person who is an NIVO or an NRSVO or an NETO or any other "O".  It makes zero sense to think that the KJV translators had perfect sources or were infallible or had perfect understanding or ...

[Arial]

19 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

CEV makes it look okay to make a promise to God but just don't swear by it.  That is not leaving it as just a yes or just a no.

Only if one decides to take it that way for whatever reason. But how is making a promise but not swearing by it not equal yes or no?

I would address the scriptures you quote but they have nothing to do with what Jesus was saying in Matt 5. I will say that in Gal the law Paul is speaking of is the Sinai Covenant Law and its being brought into justification by faith alone as a necessary part of salvation. It is not about all the promises we make being the law. As I have pointed out before but is ignored.

[Arial]

20 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

The KJV has the term yoke of bondage in Galatians 5:1 for a reason.

Galatians 5:i Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. KJV

Numbers 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

I know what I say about this will be in vain where you are concerned. In fact I have said it before and it isn't even considered or looked at. That is the problem when we get so invested in our own viewpoint that we become as deaf as idols made of wood to the words or ideas of others. Heaven forbid we see we may have been wrong, let alone ever admit it publicly. And it is common, that old man alive and well inside us.

And the KJV is not the only translation that says "yoke of bondage or slavery." The only ones I have found that don't are paraphrases and even then the are not changing the meaning. But what makes you combine Gal 5:1 with Numbers 30:2? They are not even talking about the same thing. You make them to be simply by the fact that a form of the word "bond" occurs in both. That is not handling the Word correctly but rather dividing it.

20 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

If you do circumcision which is the smallest letter of the law and if you do that, you are entitled to do the whole law, where do you think vows & oaths fall under?  The biggest letter of the law and thus you are entitled to do the whole law.

Why do you say circumcision is the smallest letter of the Law? (Plus "entitled" is not the correct word, but rather "obligated". Using it as a means of salvation puts one under the whole Law and out from under grace.)  Paul is not talking about making oaths he is dealing with an issue that confronted the Galatians. There were Jews and Judaizers infiltrating saying that yes Christ is the Savior but He is nothing unless you are also circumcised. They were presenting a Christ who was not sufficient. It was hard for them to let go of the Law. Paul is saying if you think that it is necessary to do any part of the Law in order to be saved, then you must keep the whole Law. The liberty is being out from under the Law, and therefore out from under its curse. Faith in Christ alone. ANd it is the Law that was a yoke of bondage that no one could carry, because it had to be kept perfectly and as sinners we cannot do that.

 

20 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

where do you think vows & oaths fall under? 

There were laws concerning oaths and vows in the OT and they had to do with making a vow to God. But that is not what Paul was talking about and it does not prohibit all oaths and vows. We see Paul himself making them.

 

20 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

CEV nulls and void that by the changed message in the second verse.

Galatians 5:1 Christ has set us free! This means we are really free. Now hold on to your freedom and don't ever become slaves of the Law again. 2 I, Paul, promise you that Christ won't do you any good if you get circumcised.  CEV

Like it or not, the CEV is the opposite of the KJV in what Paul was actually saying.

It does not make null and void what was said in the second verse. You have simply misunderstood Matt 5:33-37 and carry that misunderstanding all the way through the rest of scripture. You misunderstand what Paul is even speaking about in Gal 5 because of the poor wording of the KJV in Matt without bothering to justify what you think it is saying with the rest of scripture to see if maybe it is the wording that is off.

Look at this and then continue promoting that what you say is correct.

"So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow. And he came to Ephesus, and left them there; but he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews" (Acts 18:18-19)

[ChristB4us]

2 hours ago, Arial said:

When you make your first statement here you are combining two ideas put forth in scriptures that are not combined in these passages. That of instruction about making oaths and the danger of not keeping those oaths ("we do not know what tomorrow will bring") and making whatever we use to validate our integrity binding. The other being that it is God who does a good work in us. The second is not why Jesus is saying what He says but you make it to be.

Also because you rely solely on the KJV and its antiquated language you reach a conclusion that verse 33 is saying we are not to make oaths to God (and to God is the issue here) or any oaths or promises at all I guess. That is because the wording in the KJV says "thou shalt not forswear thyself." Which when you think about it makes no sense, that we should never make vows to God or any vows whatsoever. And if that is the case, that the KJV is correct in its wording, then all the other translations are wrong, not just the CEV.

NKJV Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord."

ESV Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'

NASB Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.'

It is more about lying or not keeping vows we make to the Lord than anything else.

And when He says what He does in verse 36  followed by 36 (Let your yes be yes and your no be no) He is simply saying why make an oath. Just do what you say you are going to do.

In your quoted reference, the ESV actually says you have sworn by the oath.

But the KJV, and your 3 versions all confirmed about what having an oath mean; to perform as in fulfill as in finish your oath before Jesus said, BUT I say unto you, not even sear at all.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

So Jesus was talking about how people will perform their oaths unto the Lord, BUT He said not to do that; even by swearing by it which is the custom of showing sincerity in performing or fulfilling or finishing that vow or oath.

I agree that we should not need to make a promise but just say yes or no in whatever we are asked to do, BUT that is the point of Jesus's speaking against making an oath or a vow and not to even swear by it.

However the point of verse 36 of you cannot make one hair white or black, means what?  Who can make your hair the real white or the real black without hair coloring?  God.  So in other words, do not make promises that is for God to do.

The Promise Keepers's program is about 7 promises that a Christian man will make to be a good husband, a good father, and a good leader in the community.

Now if righteousness can come from the law like making such a promise in making us good like that, Christ has died in vain.  Right?  

And yet Promise Keepers is fizzling out.  The wife of the founder of promise Keepers when PK was in full swing across the nation at one time has revealed that he had not been keeping his promises of late.

By those promises is the knowledge of sin. By the deeds of the law is the knowledge of sin.  No one will be justified by those promises and it is a false witness to call oneself a Promise Keeper when they are not.

Yet they teach that when PK fail, they can ask for forgiveness and keep on trying thus making Christ a minister of sin which God forbids.

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain

Not to mention how a false witness can defile a man.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man:

Promise Keepers is known as a movement of men as it is a commandment of men.

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So you agree that we should not be making promises and yet you continue not to see the CEV as teaching the opposite of what Jesus is saying by the KJV and those 3 modern Bibles you had referenced?  Do check again in discernment with Him.