Is Jesus Christ a Man or God.

[BlindSeeker]

Well done Shilo357

[other one]

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Keep in mind that Jesus also wanted us to be one with him. The Father in He and He in us. Take care in thinking that they are the same thing by saying that they are one., for Jesus is not the Father. It is hard for me to understnand exactly what you mean by this.

[Guest shiloh357]

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Keep in mind that Jesus also wanted us to be one with him. The Father in He and He in us. Take care in thinking that they are the same thing by saying that they are one., for Jesus is not the Father. It is hard for me to understnand exactly what you mean by this.

All that is important is what Jesus meant. Jesus and the Father are One in substance, power, glory and agenda. It is the same concept communicated in Deut. 6:4 "Hear O Israel! The Lord your God, The Lord is One!" The word for one in 6:4 is echad and communicates here a unity, and does not mean "one" in the absolute sense. Jesus is God, but is not the Fahter.

[felix]

To A New Name:

My argument was that early Christians did not even believe that Jesus was divine. Your post did not address this at all, so there is really nothing for me to respond to.

Mtoneil,

You say, "Jesus was not always considered divine..." implying that maybe Jesus wasn't divine. You got the wrong idea. Jesus's divinity and humanity were mingled together. Take for instance a mix of salt and pepper. You can't say the mix is not always salty as you are saying Jesus was not always divine. The mix is both 100% salty and 100% pepper(ey). In your view, how can some parts of scripture talk about Jesus's divinity and some parts about his humanity...and then it must be an either or??? To you its...either Jesus is divine or he's not. Wrong idea...the scripture speaks of Christ in this way because he was both! That can only be the way to explain. Do you agree? BTW, God wouldn't be punishing you for your belief that Jesus is not God but only that you cannot experience what God wants to give you. There will always be veils as long as you can't see that Jesus was God who came in the flesh.

I am not implying that Jesus wasn't divine. I am stating outright that Jesus' earliest followers probably didn't believe in Jesus' divinity, as is evidenced by Matthew, Mark and Luke's complete silence on the matter, as well as some statements to the contrary.

Can you cite any passages from Mark, Matthew, or Luke tending to the belief that Jesus is God? Please answer this question with specific passages.

Now, can you cite any from John? Of course you can. And that's because the Jesus of John is so different from Mark, Matthew, and Luke that all 4 cannot by any possibility be true. Only in John does Jesus claim to be God. And in the other 3 it is actually implied on several occasions that he is not God. The VAST majority of serious biblical scholars acknowledge that many, if not most, of the sayings attributed to Jesus in John are likely not historical.

Go and read Matthew, Mark and Luke. Read them over several times. Really think about them long and hard. Think about the general order of events. Think about the way Jesus speaks and teaches. Think about the themes that are emphasized. Then go and read John, and do the same analysis. You will find, if you are at least a minimally observant reader, that the Jesus of Matt Mark and Luke is so completely different from John that both cannot be historically accurate.

In Matthew, Mark, and Luke we are told that God will be forgiving to the forgiving, kind to the kind, merciful to merciful, etc. We are told essentially that God will treat us as we treat others. Nothing is even hinted at as to the necessity of believing in Jesus. But then read John, and you will read a completely different doctrine. One that is completely incompatible with the beliefs of the Synoptic evangelists.

You said, "I am not implying that Jesus wasn't divine." So what is it? Do you or do you not believe in Jesus's divinity. I am aware of the 4 gospels and it's differences...but if you are using this to imply that Jesus was not God then there is clearly a veil. For me, I cannot understand spiritual truths in any scripture of the bible if I do not believe that Jesus is God. To know the divinity of Jesus does not take head knowledge...but spiritual knowledge. Sight from spiritual eyes not physical eyes. You can't just focus on the 4 gospels and what you THINK the early believers thought. It needs to be the entire bible and your spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who teaches us, not man. No one needs to "Go and read Matthew, Mark and Luke. Read them over several times. Really think about them long and hard". BTW I've known this for quite some time already (matthew, luke, mark vs john gospel). To truly understand the scripture you need to receive the words by spirit and not by mind.

And amen Shiloh. The bible is very clear on Jesus's divinity. And it's not just in the gospels and the new testament. It's the entire bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

Edited November 10, 2005 by felix

[irishcowboy]

hi everyone lets disscuss on this topic

IS JESUS CHRIST A MAN---------- THE IMPECABILITY OF JESUS CHRIST ?DISSCUSS

Christ was and is both......

Devine and mortal at the same time.....

my grandfather proved it with math also.....

mike

[BlindSeeker]

Jesus was, and is, called the "son of God" in all four gospels. However, the word "son" was not meant to infer He would be God's descendant, or offspring, such as we have offsprings. The word was merely prophetic of the gender of a child which God promised would be born. From the beginning, when man fell into sin in the garden, God promised that a deliverer would come. A "seed" that would bruise the head of the serpent (the devil), and the serpent would "bruise HIS heel" (Genesis 3.15). A "man child" would be born.

Jesus Christ is that "seed" and "man child." A "son" that could only have been OF God, for as it was foretold, the child would be born of a virgin. While this child's conception was accomplished entirely OF God, men would still call him "son of man," (although no earthly man took part in His conception).

The phrase "Son of man" is merely a Jewish maxim which testifies of one's humanity, consider Ezekiel where God contiually calls him "son of man." Likewise, in Christ's case, it testifies of His own humanity - He was "born" a man" and for the duration of His tabernacle-ing with humanity He was locked in time and space.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He likewise took part of the same . . . for verily He took not on Him the nature of angels: but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren" (Hebrews 2:14-17).

Just as Isaiah foretold, "a virgin" had conceived and brought forth a "son" that (as both Isaiah prophesied and the angel Gabriel foretold) men they would call this child, , "Immanuel . . . which being interpreted is, God-with-us" (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-23, Luke 1:26-35).

The humanity of Christ deals with His earthly tabernacle of flesh and blood

[Guest jrh]

Trinity = "The belief that God eternally exists in three co-equal, co-eternal persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Although triune in nature, God is one as to His essential being."

*all scriptures quoted from the American Standard Version unless otherwise noted*

---The trinity theory states that Jesus is 'co-eternal', but Jesus had a definite beginning, he was created, he was the Almighty's first creation.

Col 1:15,16 [Jesus]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Pro 8:22,23 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. 23 I [Jesus]was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.

..in no particular order....

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

---Jesus had a God

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

---here's one that I've seen pro-trinitarians use...

Phillipians 2:9-11 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mark 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

"begotten" from 'beget' which means = "To cause to exist or occur; produce"

John 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? --New American Standard

Matt 27:54 Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

John 17:20-22 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. --New American Standard

---Using this scripture in support of the trinity holds no merit, as you would also have to include some of "Us" as well.

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.--New American Standard

---co-equal? Certaintly Jesus would not lie, so they are not co-equal.

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

--co-equal?

Mark 13:32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.--New American Standard

---co-equal? Jesus keeping secrets...from himself??

...I'm getting sleepy, here's one more...

1 Cor 8:5,6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. --King James Version

I believe that God's Word speaks pretty clearly on this matter.

...and just a reminder...

Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

[Mikeyjay]

Jesus is 100% God & 100% Man !!!

[Guest shiloh357]

Well jrh, you need to study your Bible better, because you are completely out in left field. Let's look at the Scriptures you used and see the way you mishandled them.

The trinity theory states that Jesus is 'co-eternal', but Jesus had a definite beginning, he was created, he was the Almighty's first creation.

Col 1:15,16 [Jesus]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Pro 8:22,23 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. 23 I [Jesus]was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.

..in no particular order....

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

Col 1:15,16 completely contradicts what you are trying to prove. First of all, it refers to Jesus as the firstborn of all creation. As it is used here, it refers to rank. It is not saying that Jesus is the first creature created. It is a term that denotes rank in creation. He has the rank of first born. The Bible clearly says in Genesis that God created the universe. But in this passage we see that Jesus is said to be the one who is the agent of creation. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Rev. 3:14 - Same as in Colossians 1. To call Jesus "the beginning of the creation of God" simply refers to Jesus as the agent of creation and that he holds the primacy over all created things. Jesus Himself was never created, and could not as creator. Since God created the universe, and Jesus is created the universe according to Paul in Col 1, then it would be impossible for Jesus as God to be both creator and creature at the same time.

Prov 8:22,23 is talking about the wisdom of God. The writer is portraying wisdom in the feminine sense. There is no credible reference to Jesus being made here. You are trying to pencil this in as a reference to Jesus, but such a reference is unwarranted and does not fit the context of the passage. You need to stick to Scriptures that make clear references to Jesus, and stop trying to read your own meaning into a passage.

Isaiah 44:6 - It is interesting that you use this passage. Jesus said the same thing about Himself in Revelation: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

(Revelation 1:8)

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

(Revelation 1:10-18)

Deut. 6:4 This is a not a reference so much to His unity, but simply saying that He is the only "Jehovah" To Him alone does the name "Jehovah" rightfully belong.

---Jesus had a God

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

I don't see where the problem is here, really. God is the God of Christ when we are speaking about Christ as man. He is also the Father of Christ when speaking about Christ as God. Jesus is both 100% man and 100% God, so there is no problem here. It does not support your position at all.

---here's one that I've seen pro-trinitarians use...

Phillipians 2:9-11 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes, we do use it, and for good reason. Notice that last part: All creatures will one day confess that Jesus Christ is "LORD" (Adonai/Jehovah). In the Scriptures "LORD" is a term that is used in place of God's Name. The Jewish people use either Adonai or "Ha Shem" so as not to pronouce the true Sacred Name of God. LORD is the English way of doing that. When you see "LORD" used in reference God the Father or Jesus is it is always Adonai or as some like to use, "Jehovah." So really this passages tells us that Jesus is indeed God.

Mark 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

"begotten" from 'beget' which means = "To cause to exist or occur; produce"

John 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? --New American Standard

Matt 27:54 Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

You need to learn something about the term "Son of God."

[Trinity]

Can you cite any passages from Mark, Matthew, or Luke tending to the belief that Jesus is God? Please answer this question with specific passages.

Sure can

Luke 1:68

"Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people.

Seems pretty clear to me...

Mark 14:62

"I am," said Jesus...

Exodus 3:14-15 states, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, "The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you." This is My name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations." God says His name is "I AM," and that will be His name forever, seems pretty obvious to me Mark thought Jesus was God...